Why Are States So Strapped for Cash? There Are Two Big Reasons

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Submitted by phaster on March 29, 2018 - 8:39am

Quote:

Why Are States So Strapped for Cash? There Are Two Big Reasons

The proportion of state and local tax revenues dedicated to Medicaid and public pensions is the highest since the 1960s

March 28, 2018

...As state and local officials prepare their next budgets, many are finding that spending decisions have already been made for them by two must-fund line items that barely mattered when baby boomers such as Mr. Leavitt were growing up: Medicaid, the state-federal health insurance program for the poor and disabled, and public-employee health and retirement costs.

These days, they consume about one out of every five tax dollars collected by state and local governments.

...The resulting revenue squeeze is making it harder for governments to pay for core services such as education, infrastructure, police and fire protection.

...For cities, the budget squeeze means they must rely less on state aid to balance their books.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-are-sta...

AND given (as I mentioned before) local leadership is dishonest

www.TinyURL.com/SanDiegoSpikingPension

and dumb

www.TinyURL.com/PensionRebuttal

WRT managing a pension portfolio,... 99.9% certain there is no way to avoid TSHTF

Submitted by spdrun on March 29, 2018 - 10:14am.

Too much funding for our military and its adventures abroad, not enough money going back to states. Cut certain parts of the military -- parts of it have become a parasitic organization.

Submitted by phaster on April 1, 2018 - 5:01pm.

spdrun wrote:
Too much funding for our military [industrial complex] and its adventures abroad, not enough money going back to states. Cut certain parts of the military -- parts of it have become a parasitic organization.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyBNmecVtdU

interesting watching news reports of political leadership back in the day, who seems "civil" and knowledgable, VS "present day" (where there are unresolved issues in many different areas: economic, environmental, geo-political, civil, etc.)

Submitted by SK in CV on April 4, 2018 - 8:28am.

California has a pretty significant surplus.

Submitted by harvey on April 4, 2018 - 10:44am.

SK in CV wrote:
California has a pretty significant surplus.

...as well as significant debt/unfunded liabilities.

Submitted by phaster on April 6, 2018 - 8:40am.

harvey wrote:
SK in CV wrote:
California has a pretty significant surplus.

...as well as significant debt/unfunded liabilities.

yup,

for a preview of news headlines of what is 99.9% certain in the future for San Diego, California, etc., all ya have to do is read a news clipping in todays paper,... of another part of the world where leadership is DISHONEST and DUMB about finance

Quote:

["FILL IN THE NAME,..."] files fiscal plan without layoffs, pension cuts

...Puerto Rico 's government submitted a required fiscal plan on Thursday that excludes pension cuts and layoffs sought by a federal oversight board as legislators in the U.S. territory angered by its demands debate a bill that would withhold payments for board member salaries, among other things.

www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/sn...

(aside from the named location) only difference being, the problem(s) in the future are going to be magnitudes worst because of compounding factors

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

Submitted by spdrun on April 6, 2018 - 10:51am.

PR and CA are not really comparable. For one thing, different age demographics -- PR is heavily weighted towards retirees whereas CA is not.

Submitted by SK in CV on April 6, 2018 - 9:55pm.

harvey wrote:
SK in CV wrote:
California has a pretty significant surplus.

...as well as significant debt/unfunded liabilities.

Debt per capita is pretty much in the middle of the pack for all states. Unfunded liabilities are probably getting better, the recent change in assumptions notwithstanding. Participants are kicking in substantially more. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It's just a really long tunnel.

Submitted by harvey on April 7, 2018 - 9:32am.

SK in CV wrote:
It's just a really long tunnel.

It's at least a generation long.

And that's using your best-case scenario numbers.

A solution that may work, someday, for our grandchildren, assuming everything goes well, is not really a solution.

And why does an entire generation have to bear this burden?

Because it's imperative that fifty-something year-old park rangers enjoy a comfortable work-free lifestyle for the next thirty years.

Submitted by phaster on April 15, 2018 - 9:33pm.

spdrun wrote:
PR and CA are not really comparable. For one thing, different age demographics -- PR is heavily weighted towards retirees whereas CA is not.

SK in CV wrote:

Debt per capita is pretty much in the middle of the pack for all states. Unfunded liabilities are probably getting better, the recent change in assumptions notwithstanding. Participants are kicking in substantially more. There is light at the end of the tunnel. It's just a really long tunnel.

perhaps ya all might want to factor in,...

Quote:

Students rejected from a UC or CSU are leaving California in droves — and may never come back

...The decision to leave the state for college is one a growing number of California families are making. Since 2002, Arizona State University has seen an increase of more than 200 percent in California student enrollment. At Oregon State University, California freshmen made up 3 percent of the incoming class in 2002. By 2017, California freshmen made up nearly 14 percent of Oregon State’s new students.

https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/03/23/818...

so this news report indicates a trend that to some degree there is a youth brain drain,... which (most likely) is going to have negative "economic" effects in the future

BTW since its the eve of tax day,... one other thing to keep in mind is,... under Trump's new plan, taxpayers who itemize will be able to deduct their state individual income, sales and property taxes up to a limit of $10,000 in total starting in 2018. Currently the deduction is unlimited!!!

so given yet another (future) limitation,... here its important for taxpayers (in California) to be aware of yet another potential economic head wind (i.e. yet another shovel full of "self-interested political bull-$hit")

Quote:

That 'split roll' you heard about? Less a Prop. 13 fix than a pension bailout

Proposition 13, the landmark 1978 ballot measure credited with touching off a national anti-tax revolution, has never stopped being controversial. Critics say its cap on annual property tax increases and its two-thirds voting requirement for government bodies to impose new or higher taxes has hamstrung California and been a public policy disaster. That argument, of course, is undercut by the fact that — despite these obstacles — state residents still have among the nation’s highest overall tax burdens.

www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/edi...

the preverbal straw that is going to break the camel's back is,... the "California rule" which implies the tax payers are the designated financial backstop for various corrupt/mismanaged pension portfolio(s),... said another way,... taxpayers are between a rock and a hard place WRT various debt obligations

NOTE local politicians and partisan supports of status quo public pension payouts, are silent on the root cause of the problem(s) (e.g. a 13th pension payment, not fully funding the pension in the first place, etc.) because they don't want to acknowledge the problem they themselves created

as I see things, its important to understand the various mechanisms that caused the problem in the first place, so that they can be addressed,... sadly it seems politicians seem to think that by avoiding the subject that somehow finances will somehow fix themselves,... IT WON'T

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

if financial mismanagement which is the root cause of the problem is not addressed, IMHO we are going to see symptoms like homelessness AND prices of various "real estate" continue on an upward trend because those that can afford to live w/ an increased government burden will thrive (up to a point),... while those that cannot afford to live w/ an increased government burden will be crushed!

www.TinyURL.com/SanDiegoProp13

Submitted by CA renter on April 16, 2018 - 3:00am.

For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

And since you're so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?

Submitted by harvey on April 16, 2018 - 8:45am.

CA renter wrote:
For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

California's overall (property, income, sales) tax rate is high relative to other states.

Prop 13 may have created a short-term need for cities to compensate with other taxes. That was 40 years ago.

But today California's overall property tax rates are not even very low (just below the average of other states.)

The Prop 13 debate has nothing to do with the simple fact that California, in general, has high taxation.

And it has even less to do with the fact that the state has long history of taking on debt and unfunded obligations.

Submitted by TeCKis300 on April 17, 2018 - 3:23pm.

This. The baby-boomers are sitting pretty, after setting themselves up unilaterally to steal from future generations. What happened to taking care of the future generations? They've raped earths resources, financially burdened the next generations, and justify it as they've worked hard for their just dues. I've seen it enough times, done under the thin veil of "legitimate" policy, that they go home feeling good about themselves that they've brought value to society. Sad.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on April 17, 2018 - 8:24pm.

CA renter wrote:
For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

And since you're so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?

You just obviated any argument to repeal prop 13. If the lost billions have been made up, a repeal of prop 13 would amount to a huge tax increase. No way Jose.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on April 17, 2018 - 10:39pm.

TeCKis300 wrote:
This. The baby-boomers are sitting pretty, after setting themselves up unilaterally to steal from future generations. What happened to taking care of the future generations? They've raped earths resources, financially burdened the next generations, and justify it as they've worked hard for their just dues. I've seen it enough times, done under the thin veil of "legitimate" policy, that they go home feeling good about themselves that they've brought value to society. Sad.

Young people have the power of the vote but won't use it. They have the power to change the laws. I think it's sad that young people don't vote.

Submitted by CA renter on April 19, 2018 - 4:59am.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:
For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

California's overall (property, income, sales) tax rate is high relative to other states.

Prop 13 may have created a short-term need for cities to compensate with other taxes. That was 40 years ago.

But today California's overall property tax rates are not even very low (just below the average of other states.)

The Prop 13 debate has nothing to do with the simple fact that California, in general, has high taxation.

And it has even less to do with the fact that the state has long history of taking on debt and unfunded obligations.

California's overall tax rates are somewhat higher than other states -- it's around tenth place (depending on year).

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistic...

After the passage of Prop 13, revenues dropped by approximately 60%. By capping the annual increases at 2% (well below the level of property price appreciation in this state), the reduction in revenue was made permanent. By requiring a two-thirds vote for any additional local "special taxes," Prop 13 prevented local governments from being able to make up for the shortfall in property taxes by imposing new local taxes. Again, these changes created a permanent shortfall in tax revenues, relative to population size and public spending levels; it was not a short-term issue at all.

http://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/3497

As for the argument that we have high taxes because of debt and unfunded obligations (a claim you've made without any data to back it up), we need to look at where our money actually goes, and why some of these spending categories are so high.

The majority of our spending goes toward K-12 Education (~42%), Health and Human Services (~29%), Higher Education (~11%), and Corrections and Rehabilitation (~9%).

https://www.sco.ca.gov/state_finances_10...

California has the highest poverty rate in the U.S. when taking cost-of-living into account (17th place without COL adjustment).

http://www.politifact.com/california/sta...

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Censu...

We also bear ~25% of the country's illegal immigrant population, which comprises about 6% of our population.

http://www.ppic.org/publication/undocume...

Approximately 12.3% of our K-12 students are children of illegal immigrants. This percentage is likely underestimated because schools are not allowed to ask families about their immigration status.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/interactives/...

These groups (poor and illegal immigrants, along with their children) place a disproportionate burden on our state's schools, healthcare system, and legal/prison system -- exactly where most of our money is going.

Our state is "wealthy" only because a relatively small percentage of our population receives a disproportionate share of our country's total personal income. There is very little left of our middle class, and what is left is just hanging by a thread.

Pensions are not the cause of our state and local governments' financial problems (and one could argue that the reduction in staffing that would result from fixing our immigration system and tighening up our welfare system would drastically reduce our pension costs without affecing our revenues by much).

For some perspective, you should take a look at our budget to see where our money goes. The issue is complex; and while those who would greatly benefit from the decimation of public employee unions want to direct the focus on pensions, it's obvious that pensions are not the main cause of our financial problems.

http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/2014-15/pdf/Bu...

What's interesting is that these pretend "taxpayer advocates" never talk about all of the other taxpayer guarantees, unearned tax subsidies, and public expenditures, etc. that are draining this state (and our country) of public money and resources. This just covers a relatively small slice of these expenditures:

http://www.dof.ca.gov/Forecasting/Econom...

Submitted by phaster on April 19, 2018 - 8:10am.

FlyerInHi wrote:
CA renter wrote:
For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

And since you're so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?

You just obviated any argument to repeal prop 13. If the lost billions have been made up, a repeal of prop 13 would amount to a huge tax increase. No way Jose.

sigh,... let's all take another walk down memory lane

CA renter wrote:

September 4, 2014 - 6:04pm

I don't get distracted by non-economic issues where politics are concerned. That's not to say that these issues are unimportant, but that they pale in comparison to economics.

CA renter wrote:

October 1, 2014 - 9:23pm

Yes, I've been following the pension issue for many, many years (far, far, far longer than you have), and I have also worked with negotiating committees and have done research for public employee unions.

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

CA phaster wrote:

October 22, 2016 - 8:30am

CA renter wrote:

October 9, 2016 - 1:07am

BTW, you're not educating or informing anyone of anything. The pension issue was beaten to death LONG before you ever came into the picture.

really???

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

for the record, have to say the inability to recognize basic middle school math concepts and their importance as it relates to managing money, sadly isn't an isolated case,... seems there is a pandemic of being morally and intellectually bankrupt (i.e. dishonest and dumb) WRT basic finance,... perhaps the root cause is some kind of political self interest???

having said my piece, now let's go back and review (yet again) the basic math concepts which are key to understanding the local pension portfolio "mismanagement"

for three decades plus, the local public pension portfolio custodians (i.e. politicians) have allowed giving away a 13th pension payment (off balance sheet),... basically this is akin to a 13th mortgage payment on a property (which shortens the pay off period and decreases the over-all interest paid), BUT in this case things work in reverse,... in other words the pension debt obligation will increase over time

www.TinyURL.com/SanDiegoSpikingPension

compounding this basic middle school math "error" is public employ leadership (i.e. public pension recipients) who see no problem w/ not requiring fully funding the portfolio,... this action basically is akin to only paying a "minimum credit card payment" but its important to note that things here are happening on a SUPER SIZED scale!!!

www.TinyURL.com/PensionRebuttal

AND let's not forget we are where we are because those responsible for causing this money management mess are basically morally and intellectually challenged (i.e. dishonest and dumb)

bottom line,... given the "California rule" which implies the tax payers are the designated financial backstop for this whole mess,... means eventually there are some serious consequences for local residents AND if the problem(s) is widespread perhaps it might have serious consequences for civilization as a whole,...

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

PS one last general observation,... the background knowledge needed to model something as complex/chaotic as climate change or the economy, requires deep knowledge of various fields of study along w/ a basic understanding of how things interact,... what I find ironic is more often than not is politicians and various activists who claim leadership roles,... have in fact the least background knowledge that is required to understand the big picture

www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/04/13/60...

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2...

Submitted by harvey on April 19, 2018 - 6:26pm.

CA renter wrote:
It's all those Mexican school children that are taking our taxes!

Name one city that went bankrupt because they educated too many children.

I can name several that went bankrupt because of pension costs.

BTW: Putting lots of links in your posts doesn't negate your blatant racism.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on April 19, 2018 - 7:35pm.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:
It's all those Mexican school children that are taking our taxes!

Name one city that went bankrupt because they educated too many children.

I can name several that went bankrupt because of pension costs.

BTW: Putting lots of links in your posts doesn't negate your blatant racism.

CArenter likes to mention the intricacies of municipal finances when convenient. However, according to her, if we just get rid of Prop 13 and Mexican kids, the money will somehow flow directly to pension funds.

Of course, it's all about protecting the benefits of retirees who no longer contribute. No mention of services that citizens deserve.

Honestly, I'd rather my tax dollars educate kids regardless of legal status. Kids who are integral parts of our community.

Submitted by CA renter on April 20, 2018 - 2:54am.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:
It's all those Mexican school children that are taking our taxes!

Name one city that went bankrupt because they educated too many children.

I can name several that went bankrupt because of pension costs.

BTW: Putting lots of links in your posts doesn't negate your blatant racism.

You've done it, yet again. You've attempted to make it look like your words and thougths were the thoughts, ideas, or direct quotes of another poster.

Back when people were asking for Brian to be banned because of his political posts, I supported him because I think it's important to listen to different perspectives. I have *never* supported banning anyone in the entire time I've been reading and commenting on Piggington (back when Rich first started this site), and I have never even "ignored" anyone here or on any other platform, but you absolutely deserve to be banned.

Not only do you regularly twist other people's words into "quotes" that are absolutely unrelated to what they've said or implied, you've consistently degraded the level of discourse here as a result of your non-stop ad hominem attacks and your total inability to discuss issues by using facts, data, and logic to support your statements. You've exhibited a total lack of reading comprehension skills (either that, or you're maliciously trolling), which has led to vitriolic strings of posts that are absent of any intellectual substance and result in a complete waste of everyone's time.

For all his faults, Brian was far less offensive than you've been, and he got banned. Since his return, you've encouraged him to be an even greater nuissance than he was in ~2008. You're an absolute liability to this community.

Submitted by ucodegen on April 20, 2018 - 10:38am.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:
It's all those Mexican school children that are taking our taxes!

Name one city that went bankrupt because they educated too many children.

I can name several that went bankrupt because of pension costs.

BTW: Putting lots of links in your posts doesn't negate your blatant racism.


Stop misrepresenting quotes to create a talking point. It is possible to cross check this site (piggington.com) using Google to see if that quote was ever made. Firefox is also useful by telling it to highlight all exact matches in the search panel.

Submitted by CA renter on April 21, 2018 - 3:50am.

phaster wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:
CA renter wrote:
For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

And since you're so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?

You just obviated any argument to repeal prop 13. If the lost billions have been made up, a repeal of prop 13 would amount to a huge tax increase. No way Jose.

sigh,... let's all take another walk down memory lane

CA renter wrote:

September 4, 2014 - 6:04pm

I don't get distracted by non-economic issues where politics are concerned. That's not to say that these issues are unimportant, but that they pale in comparison to economics.

CA renter wrote:

October 1, 2014 - 9:23pm

Yes, I've been following the pension issue for many, many years (far, far, far longer than you have), and I have also worked with negotiating committees and have done research for public employee unions.

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

CA phaster wrote:

October 22, 2016 - 8:30am

CA renter wrote:

October 9, 2016 - 1:07am

BTW, you're not educating or informing anyone of anything. The pension issue was beaten to death LONG before you ever came into the picture.

really???

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

for the record, have to say the inability to recognize basic middle school math concepts and their importance as it relates to managing money, sadly isn't an isolated case,... seems there is a pandemic of being morally and intellectually bankrupt (i.e. dishonest and dumb) WRT basic finance,... perhaps the root cause is some kind of political self interest???

having said my piece, now let's go back and review (yet again) the basic math concepts which are key to understanding the local pension portfolio "mismanagement"

for three decades plus, the local public pension portfolio custodians (i.e. politicians) have allowed giving away a 13th pension payment (off balance sheet),... basically this is akin to a 13th mortgage payment on a property (which shortens the pay off period and decreases the over-all interest paid), BUT in this case things work in reverse,... in other words the pension debt obligation will increase over time

www.TinyURL.com/SanDiegoSpikingPension

compounding this basic middle school math "error" is public employ leadership (i.e. public pension recipients) who see no problem w/ not requiring fully funding the portfolio,... this action basically is akin to only paying a "minimum credit card payment" but its important to note that things here are happening on a SUPER SIZED scale!!!

www.TinyURL.com/PensionRebuttal

AND let's not forget we are where we are because those responsible for causing this money management mess are basically morally and intellectually challenged (i.e. dishonest and dumb)

bottom line,... given the "California rule" which implies the tax payers are the designated financial backstop for this whole mess,... means eventually there are some serious consequences for local residents AND if the problem(s) is widespread perhaps it might have serious consequences for civilization as a whole,...

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

PS one last general observation,... the background knowledge needed to model something as complex/chaotic as climate change or the economy, requires deep knowledge of various fields of study along w/ a basic understanding of how things interact,... what I find ironic is more often than not is politicians and various activists who claim leadership roles,... have in fact the least background knowledge that is required to understand the big picture

www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/04/13/60...

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/01/17/an-awesome-diagram-of-the-113th-congress/

You didn't address any of the issues listed in my post, including the fact that the government (federal, state, and local) backs many different interest groups, not just their employees. Why aren't you concerned about these groups? What about that juicy taxpayer subsidy, worth thousands of dollars, that you personally receive every year? Why no mention of that?

FWIW, I also disagree with the "13th check," but this is not what's causing the problems with the pension systems. San Diego has its own pension fund, so you shouldn't extend this argument to other systems that do not have this additional payment option. For the record, I strongly oppose pension spiking, and have always done so.

As for making sure that the pension funds are always 100% funded, that would cause unnecessary hardships for public agencies during downturns, and make it look like the funds are over-funded when bubbles form (which is how we got into a lot of our more recent problems...they thought that trees could grow to the sky), which results in reduced funding for the inevitable rainy days that will occur. One of the benefits of DB pension plans is that they focus more on long-term planning, so they do have more flexibility where funding levels are concerned, but they need to be mindful of long-term trends. If not for the Fed's interest rate manipulations and their resulting bubbles and busts, we would be in a much better place right now.

BTW, you keep pointing out the fact that I have helped out with research, etc. regarding unions. It has never been a secret that I have long been a supporter of unions, including public employee unions. I was a former union member, the daughter of union members (one of whom regularly fought with his union), and the wife of a former union member, along with having various friends, extended family members, etc., who've belonged to unions.

I'm an FDR/labor Democrat, and have never shied away from that fact. But I'm also a taxpayer advocate, and have argued against what I see as unethical actions taken by various unions. Unlike you, I have an understanding of how public employers, unions, private contractors, and various special interest groups work, and can tell that you are painfully uneducated about the various stakeholders who want to control public money and resources. You can take a look at the budget that I linked to in my above post. Public pensions are just one part of the budget, and they're a very small part of the state budget (they're a bigger part of local budgets because they pay for more services, as opposed to infrastructure).

If you're opposed to taxpayer guarantees (a perfectly rational perspective, and a conversation worth having), you need to do more research into the topic. You're missing a much bigger slice of the pie when you just focus on pensions.

Submitted by CA renter on April 21, 2018 - 3:46am.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:
It's all those Mexican school children that are taking our taxes!

Name one city that went bankrupt because they educated too many children.

I can name several that went bankrupt because of pension costs.

BTW: Putting lots of links in your posts doesn't negate your blatant racism.

You're the one who keeps focusing on race while I keep focusing on economics and facts. The racism is in your head; it swims in there and corrupts your ability to think logically about a variety of issues. Try focusing on what was actually stated, instead of what you imagined (and falsely attributed to me).

As to your point about going bankrupt as a result of educating too many children...

Did you ever bother to actually look at budget numbers? California's #1 spending category is K-12 education (followed by Health and Human Services, which is also highly impacted by illegal immigration). If you increase the number of students, you increase the amount of resources necessary to educate them, and that includes teachers and their pensions. Those extra students cost state taxpayers a lot of money, and their parents are not paying anywhere near enough to cover these costs. Are you going to pretend that this is not the case?

As I've stated multiple times before, I don't begrudge the immigrants who come here to make a better life for themselves and their families, but I most certainly despise those who abuse them for their cheap, exploitable labor and who don't want to pay for the costs that society incurs as a result.

You've long complained about people who actually use facts, statistics, logic, and cited sources to bolster their arguments (what you call "cut and paste"). Do you honestly think that what you do (making ad hominem attacks, spewing divisive propaganda and establishment talking points, etc.) gives you credibility?

As much as you, zk, and Brian like to complain about Trump and the people who voted for him (I voted for Jill Stein, not Trump, BTW), it's people like you who are the reason Trump won. I have yet to see you win over a single person with all of your emotionally-based, ill-informed, and hateful rhetoric. If anything, you've made them feel more entrenched in their beliefs. Do you do this on purpose?

Submitted by harvey on April 21, 2018 - 6:42am.

CA renter wrote:

As much as you, zk, and Brian like to complain about Trump and the people who voted for him (I voted for Jill Stein, not Trump, BTW), it's people like you who are the reason Trump won. I have yet to see you win over a single person with all of your emotionally-based, ill-informed, and hateful rhetoric. If anything, you've made them feel more entrenched in their beliefs. Do you do this on purpose?

This is a beautiful example of your "logic":

- You did not vote for Trump.

- I did not vote for Trump.

- Therefore: I'm the reason he was elected.

It makes perfect sense, in your mind.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on April 21, 2018 - 8:29am.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:

As much as you, zk, and Brian like to complain about Trump and the people who voted for him (I voted for Jill Stein, not Trump, BTW), it's people like you who are the reason Trump won. I have yet to see you win over a single person with all of your emotionally-based, ill-informed, and hateful rhetoric. If anything, you've made them feel more entrenched in their beliefs. Do you do this on purpose?

This is a beautiful example of your "logic":

- You did not vote for Trump.

- I did not vote for Trump.

- Therefore: I'm the reason he was elected.

It makes perfect sense, in your mind.

In CARenter's mind.... the actual people who voted for Trump? Somehow, they are innocent. We made them do it. Analogy would be we made the shooters buy their guns and kill. Because we made them upset about god knows what.

Submitted by phaster on April 22, 2018 - 9:11am.

CA renter wrote:
phaster wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:
CA renter wrote:
For the record, California's high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.

And since you're so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?

You just obviated any argument to repeal prop 13. If the lost billions have been made up, a repeal of prop 13 would amount to a huge tax increase. No way Jose.

sigh,... let's all take another walk down memory lane

CA renter wrote:

September 4, 2014 - 6:04pm

I don't get distracted by non-economic issues where politics are concerned. That's not to say that these issues are unimportant, but that they pale in comparison to economics.

CA renter wrote:

October 1, 2014 - 9:23pm

Yes, I've been following the pension issue for many, many years (far, far, far longer than you have), and I have also worked with negotiating committees and have done research for public employee unions.

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

Quote:

October 22, 2016 - 8:30am
CA renter wrote:

October 9, 2016 - 1:07am

BTW, you're not educating or informing anyone of anything. The pension issue was beaten to death LONG before you ever came into the picture.

really???

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

for the record, have to say the inability to recognize basic middle school math concepts and their importance as it relates to managing money, sadly isn't an isolated case,... seems there is a pandemic of being morally and intellectually bankrupt (i.e. dishonest and dumb) WRT basic finance,... perhaps the root cause is some kind of political self interest???

having said my piece, now let's go back and review (yet again) the basic math concepts which are key to understanding the local pension portfolio "mismanagement"

for three decades plus, the local public pension portfolio custodians (i.e. politicians) have allowed giving away a 13th pension payment (off balance sheet),... basically this is akin to a 13th mortgage payment on a property (which shortens the pay off period and decreases the over-all interest paid), BUT in this case things work in reverse,... in other words the pension debt obligation will increase over time

www.TinyURL.com/SanDiegoSpikingPension

compounding this basic middle school math "error" is public employ leadership (i.e. public pension recipients) who see no problem w/ not requiring fully funding the portfolio,... this action basically is akin to only paying a "minimum credit card payment" but its important to note that things here are happening on a SUPER SIZED scale!!!

www.TinyURL.com/PensionRebuttal

AND let's not forget we are where we are because those responsible for causing this money management mess are basically morally and intellectually challenged (i.e. dishonest and dumb)

bottom line,... given the "California rule" which implies the tax payers are the designated financial backstop for this whole mess,... means eventually there are some serious consequences for local residents AND if the problem(s) is widespread perhaps it might have serious consequences for civilization as a whole,...

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

PS one last general observation,... the background knowledge needed to model something as complex/chaotic as climate change or the economy, requires deep knowledge of various fields of study along w/ a basic understanding of how things interact,... what I find ironic is more often than not is politicians and various activists who claim leadership roles,... have in fact the least background knowledge that is required to understand the big picture

www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/04/13/60...

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2...

You didn't address any of the issues listed in my post, including the fact that the government (federal, state, and local) backs many different interest groups, not just their employees. Why aren't you concerned about these groups? What about that juicy taxpayer subsidy, worth thousands of dollars, that you personally receive every year? Why no mention of that?

FWIW, I also disagree with the "13th check," but this is not what's causing the problems with the pension systems. San Diego has its own pension fund, so you shouldn't extend this argument to other systems that do not have this additional payment option. For the record, I strongly oppose pension spiking, and have always done so.

ah, some progress,... you've finally acknowledged the local three plus decade SOP of a 13th pension payment,...

now as to why I made no mention of the people who will be adversely affected, it isn't because I lack any concern for people,... rather doing a realistic analysis of how a public pension portfolio is managed ONLY involves looking at the math

as I see things,... your basically a dumb$hit hypocrite that is in denial that you had a hand putting all of us (i.e. harvey, flu, your own family, etc.) in the position of increased danger,... AND the reason I say this is because on one hand you specifically mention economics should trump politics

CA renter wrote:

September 4, 2014 - 6:04pm

I don't get distracted by non-economic issues where politics are concerned. That's not to say that these issues are unimportant, but that they pale in comparison to economics.

and on the other had you've clearly demonstrated you have little or no ability to grasp basic middle school math (which is needed to lessen the probability of failure),... ALSO there are various indications that you don't grasp the amount of B$ w/ in the ratings system for muni bonds,...

phaster wrote:

October 22, 2016 - 8:30am

CA renter wrote:

October 9, 2016 - 1:07am

BTW, you're not educating or informing anyone of anything. The pension issue was beaten to death LONG before you ever came into the picture.

really???

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded...

to give you some insight as to how frame the issue, you'll need to be made aware of a topic in math called "one way functions"

essential a one way function is a calculation that is easy in one direction BUT the opposite is not the case (FYI the practical application of this math is encryption),... anyway as I see things the responsible thing to do is always check the math first, then make life style decisions that take into account environmental and social factors,... perhaps you have hear the term triple-bottomline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_bot...

by looking the math first then taking into account the environmental and social aspects, this greatly improves the odd of the system being sustainable

the irresponsible way to do things is, ignore the math from the beginning (as is the case w/ the way public pensions are structured and operated),... the result in this case is, a much much much greater likely hood of failure!

or another way of thinking about the issue is the difficulty of trying to go backwards on a one way math function

to illustrate the issue in terms you might relate to is,... lets suppose the resident hacker and resident investment genius (i.e. "harvey" and "flu") decide to collaborate and start an investment club

lets also suppose these two piggs use the same investment strategy as the local pension fund,... where they keep things off balance sheet, don't take into account inflows or market-returns AND basically just concern themselves on collecting pay offs for themselves and their kin,...

bottom line when OUTFLOW(s) > INFLOW(s) + MARKET RETURN, eventually the scheme goes bust!

in this hypothetical scenario, next lets say we are at a point in time where "harvey" and "flu" are having trouble keeping their ponzi like math scheme going,... so they come up w/ a plan try and get you and your family to pick up the tab for their idiotic investment plan that had no basis reality from the onset, then ignored any sense of basic financial responsibility for three decades,...

would you and your kids bail out these two idiots AND put your own future at risk,... pretty sure you would say hell no

well the prop 13 split roll proposal, as envisioned by various progressive groups,... basically is akin to you being asked to bail out out harvey and flu after they mismanaged a portfolio for 30+ years

there is an old joke about a stock broker that jumps out a window on the 40th floor,... on the way down for 39 floors I can be 100% certain that its not the fall that is going to kill him,... its that sudden stop at the end that is hard to survive

like it or not eventually you and you kids will have to contend w/ consequences of corrupt and mismanaged finances on the whole system,... all because DISHONEST and DUMB individuals ignored the existence of basic math from the onset and set things in motion

www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

Submitted by CA renter on April 23, 2018 - 2:16am.

Phaster,

You keep harping on pensions, but have failed to note if you've returned all of your unearned subsidies, worth at least tens of thousands of dollars over the years.

It's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about. You read some newspaper articles (placed there by anti-union privatization advocates -- not "taxpayer advocates," as they like to claim) regarding the pension issues and think you're a genius. You're clearly not that smart, and you totally lack an understanding of how government budgets work -- especially how the various stakeholders' interests intersect.

Come back and talk to us AFTER you've done your part first.

Submitted by CA renter on April 23, 2018 - 2:14am.

harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:

As much as you, zk, and Brian like to complain about Trump and the people who voted for him (I voted for Jill Stein, not Trump, BTW), it's people like you who are the reason Trump won. I have yet to see you win over a single person with all of your emotionally-based, ill-informed, and hateful rhetoric. If anything, you've made them feel more entrenched in their beliefs. Do you do this on purpose?

This is a beautiful example of your "logic":

- You did not vote for Trump.

- I did not vote for Trump.

- Therefore: I'm the reason he was elected.

It makes perfect sense, in your mind.

Just review the vicious attacks, on any of your/zk/Brian's anti-Trump threads, on those who think differently or are in a different position than you are. Look at how you refer to those other people. You, and people like you, are the reason that Trump won. Keep it up, and he'll win again in 2020.

Submitted by harvey on April 23, 2018 - 7:25am.

CA renter wrote:
I have yet to see you win over a single person with all of your emotionally-based, ill-informed, and hateful rhetoric.

According to a very intelligent person, I won over millions of people:

CA renter wrote:
You, and people like you, are the reason that Trump won.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on April 23, 2018 - 8:49am.

CA renter wrote:
harvey wrote:
CA renter wrote:

As much as you, zk, and Brian like to complain about Trump and the people who voted for him (I voted for Jill Stein, not Trump, BTW), it's people like you who are the reason Trump won. I have yet to see you win over a single person with all of your emotionally-based, ill-informed, and hateful rhetoric. If anything, you've made them feel more entrenched in their beliefs. Do you do this on purpose?

This is a beautiful example of your "logic":

- You did not vote for Trump.

- I did not vote for Trump.

- Therefore: I'm the reason he was elected.

It makes perfect sense, in your mind.

Just review the vicious attacks, on any of your/zk/Brian's anti-Trump threads, on those who think differently or are in a different position than you are. Look at how you refer to those other people. You, and people like you, are the reason that Trump won. Keep it up, and he'll win again in 2020.

CAr, this is weirdest logic and reeks of entitlement and inability to take responsibility on the part of Trump voters.

Trumpistas are responsible for the votes they cast. Nobody else can be blamed, except that Russia played their low IQs.

It would be easier to argue that your own association with Trump supporters and your sympathies with them enable them. You are guilty by association.

Submitted by flu on April 23, 2018 - 9:43am.

Seeing Harvey, Brian, Phaster, CAR getting it on.....all we are missing is spdrun and BG.

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