Water in Utah

User Forum Topic
Submitted by Escoguy on June 12, 2021 - 6:24pm

St George was planning a pipeline from Like Powell to mitigate the drought, it doesn't look like that plan is a good long term solution.

I know we have water issues here too, but at least we have conservation programs and desalination which can be scaled up if needed (yes it's expensive water).

https://ksltv.com/462905/love-hope-worry...?

It's not unreasonable that under some circumstances, that lawn watering in Utah/Arizona can see more restrictions in the near future if there isn't more rain.

Submitted by EconProf on June 13, 2021 - 5:37am.

Drought conditions exist all over the Southwest, St. George/Washington City included.
Yes, the proposed pipeline is controversial, since all users of water in these states are in competition for water, which is mainly from the Colorado River. But fast-growing areas like St. George naturally fight for their own interests. BTW, lawns are largely non-existent in new housing developments.

Submitted by The-Shoveler on June 13, 2021 - 11:25am.

If I remember the last time this came up in CA.

Agriculture is 80 percent of water use in California, I think it is likely the same in AZ and UT.

iMO it is not really so much about housing/industrial growth etc... but more about how we are going to grow food and what we eat in the future, housing growth is really a non-issue but it makes great headlines LOL.

I really don't want to get into the whole climate change debate. but it is largely the same, it is popular to blame it on cars/suburbia etc.. but in reality cargo ships and Agriculture emit far more. If you to want to realty help, stop buying so much crap from Costco LOL.

It is almost pointless IMO, for every ton of greenhouse gas the USA removes, China, Africa and India probably add about three.

Submitted by phaster on June 13, 2021 - 5:29pm.

The-Shoveler wrote:
If I remember the last time this came up in CA.

Agriculture is 80 percent of water use in California, I think it is likely the same in AZ and UT.

iMO it is not really so much about housing/industrial growth etc... but more about how we are going to grow food and what we eat in the future, housing growth is really a non-issue but it makes great headlines LOL.

I really don't want to get into the whole climate change debate. but it is largely the same, it is popular to blame it on cars/suburbia etc.. but in reality cargo ships and Agriculture emit far more. If you to want to realty help, stop buying so much crap from Costco LOL.

It is almost pointless IMO, for every ton of greenhouse gas the USA removes, China, Africa and India probably add about three.

people have no idea how bad things can get

the way I see things its like being aware of covid (back in January 2020 pre-lockdown here in the USA),... I say this because scientific data indicates in the last thousand years, there have been mega-drought periods in the southwestern USA that lasted a hundred years or more

fact is what people consider normal (i.e. the past 150 years or so) was actually the perfect climate conditions which allowed populations to grow and the economy to prosper

Quote:

The most recent one is happening right now. It’s gripping a wide swath of the southwestern United States and northern Mexico, and it’s been ongoing since around 2000.

“We now have enough observations of current drought and tree-ring records of past drought to say that we’re on the same trajectory as the worst prehistoric droughts,...”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...

think a hundred year drought is bad???

looking a bit deeper, we see the southwestern USA can be in drought conditions for thousands of years!!!

Quote:

...geochemical data from Leviathan Cave shows that drought can last 4,000 years—findings that Lachniet’s team cross-checked against paleoclimate data from the Arctic and tropical Pacific. In short, the story in the cave data suggests a “worst-case scenario” that could—and probably should—guide planning throughout a region that provides water to 56 million people.

https://www.kunc.org/2020-11-30/if-aridi...

PS climate change needs to be discussed,... this is because monthly average CO2 levels were 419 PPM and the last line in the post article about CO2 level measurement (started here in the San Diego area specifically @SIO) stated,... "the longer we wait, the harder it gets"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-e...

thought I'd point out CO2 measurements because sadly 99.9999% of people don't have the brains (and "cajones") to consider the lessons of "error chain" analysis (like what happens in aviation accident investigations to prevent future accidents)

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/...

simple truth is without a dramatic change in outlook by 99.9999% of people, IMHO climate change is the great filter test (of fermi's paradox) that humanity is going to have difficulty passing

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/11/the-g...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 14, 2021 - 8:07am.

phaster wrote:
The-Shoveler wrote:
If I remember the last time this came up in CA.

Agriculture is 80 percent of water use in California, I think it is likely the same in AZ and UT.

iMO it is not really so much about housing/industrial growth etc... but more about how we are going to grow food and what we eat in the future, housing growth is really a non-issue but it makes great headlines LOL.

I really don't want to get into the whole climate change debate. but it is largely the same, it is popular to blame it on cars/suburbia etc.. but in reality cargo ships and Agriculture emit far more. If you to want to realty help, stop buying so much crap from Costco LOL.

It is almost pointless IMO, for every ton of greenhouse gas the USA removes, China, Africa and India probably add about three.

people have no idea how bad things can get

the way I see things its like being aware of covid (back in January 2020 pre-lockdown here in the USA),... I say this because scientific data indicates in the last thousand years, there have been mega-drought periods in the southwestern USA that lasted a hundred years or more

fact is what people consider normal (i.e. the past 150 years or so) was actually the perfect climate conditions which allowed populations to grow and the economy to prosper

Quote:

The most recent one is happening right now. It’s gripping a wide swath of the southwestern United States and northern Mexico, and it’s been ongoing since around 2000.

“We now have enough observations of current drought and tree-ring records of past drought to say that we’re on the same trajectory as the worst prehistoric droughts,...”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...

think a hundred year drought is bad???

looking a bit deeper, we see the southwestern USA can be in drought conditions for thousands of years!!!

Quote:

...geochemical data from Leviathan Cave shows that drought can last 4,000 years—findings that Lachniet’s team cross-checked against paleoclimate data from the Arctic and tropical Pacific. In short, the story in the cave data suggests a “worst-case scenario” that could—and probably should—guide planning throughout a region that provides water to 56 million people.

https://www.kunc.org/2020-11-30/if-aridi...

PS climate change needs to be discussed,... this is because monthly average CO2 levels were 419 PPM and the last line in the post article about CO2 level measurement (started here in the San Diego area specifically @SIO) stated,... "the longer we wait, the harder it gets"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-e...

thought I'd point out CO2 measurements because sadly 99.9999% of people don't have the brains (and "cajones") to consider the lessons of "error chain" analysis (like what happens in aviation accident investigations to prevent future accidents)

https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/...

simple truth is without a dramatic change in outlook by 99.9999% of people, IMHO climate change is the great filter test (of fermi's paradox) that humanity is going to have difficulty passing

https://astronomy.com/news/2020/11/the-great-filter-a-possible-solution-to-the-fermi-paradox

This is a problem for youngsters, not older wealthier piggs. Drill on!!!

Submitted by Escoguy on June 14, 2021 - 11:31am.

This is a problem for youngsters, not older wealthier piggs. Drill on!!![/quote]

And you have exactly nailed the problem! Anyone over a certain age: say 60 can probably with some degree of comfort say that even if the worst case occurs, they won't be too badly impacted if it's only the last decade or two of their life.

For a person from 40-60, there are trade offs but it's hard to see much positive impact from making changes like buying an electric car, adding solar, reducing water consumption. While there is a positive effect for many, they aren't enough to change their ways which is unfortunate.

For thoughtful younger people, dealing with climate change is a great imperative.
I just don't know how many are thoughtful, probably less than half.

Probably the only solution is to add a carbon tax and use the funds for carbon recapture, but that would take billions and probably two decades to scale even if start now. So far, a carbon tax has been a political nonstarter in the US. Maybe if the committed to spend a large portion in states which produce carbon fuels now, it may be perceived as job neutral for those states.

In the meantime, property prices in AZ/UT will probably still rise until the crisis reaches a critical moment, like Mead or Powell dropping another 30% but even then the biggest drop should be on agriculture. At least in the US we have other regions which can grow many crops. I think here the recycle water programs and maybe more desalination will eventually be needed.

Submitted by The-Shoveler on June 14, 2021 - 11:50am.

IMO going to need to start geo-engineering.

Young people here are probably on board, but what about India, China and especially Africa.

It is pointless unless they are on board as well which is a much much harder sell IMO.

Agriculture/Food and container ships are the biggest emitters, try selling that to someone living hand to mouth everyday.

Submitted by Coronita on June 14, 2021 - 1:04pm.

.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 14, 2021 - 3:26pm.

The-Shoveler wrote:
IMO going to need to start geo-engineering.

Young people here are probably on board, but what about India, China and especially Africa.

It is pointless unless they are on board as well which is a much much harder sell IMO.

Agriculture/Food and container ships are the biggest emitters, try selling that to someone living hand to mouth everyday.

Meat industry bad.

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