Surreal State of the State Speech

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Submitted by faterikcartman on January 31, 2011 - 5:59pm

Just wild listening to Jerry Brown talk about the sad state of our budget and the tough measures (higher taxes, cuts in trivial spending, no cuts or tackling of state pensions or illegal immigration costs) while the very same people in the legislature who caused the problems applaud. Just crazy.

Submitted by desmond on January 31, 2011 - 6:09pm.

The only hope for the State is that all the tax measures get voted down in June.

Submitted by enron_by_the_sea on January 31, 2011 - 6:12pm.

I found Brown to be quite funny at times! The speech was quite short and to the point he was trying to make!

Submitted by no_such_reality on January 31, 2011 - 8:13pm.

The people deserve to vote!

Oh wait, we already voted the taxes down once.

Submitted by Eugene on January 31, 2011 - 9:23pm.

faterikcartman wrote:
Just wild listening to Jerry Brown talk about the sad state of our budget and the tough measures (higher taxes, cuts in trivial spending, no cuts or tackling of state pensions or illegal immigration costs) while the very same people in the legislature who caused the problems applaud. Just crazy.

Can you explain how tackling of state pensions would improve the state of the budget?

Submitted by zk on January 31, 2011 - 10:10pm.

Sure, work on fixing illegal immigrant costs. But, after that, what would you do, exactly, faterikcartman, to fix the budget?

Here's a little something to get you started:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/budget/

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 7:29am.

Did Cartman want the "fiscally responsible" candidate to win?

http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/01/31/2254...

Submitted by EmilyHicks on February 1, 2011 - 7:42am.

Tackling a failed pension system should be the first thing to do. Change the pension system to a 401K like system. No more retiring at 50, or 55 even for the police and firefighters. Clamp down on fraudulant disability claims by police and firefighters.

And NO, teachers are not underpaid. They make an average of 86k with cushy pension and 3.5 months off every year. There are a bunch of unemployed teachers out there so we should implement a 10% salary cut. Take it or leave it.

Yes, illegal immigrants is a big problem. In Santa Ana, 80% of the students are children of illegals.

I vote NO on taxes.

Eugene wrote:
faterikcartman wrote:
Just wild listening to Jerry Brown talk about the sad state of our budget and the tough measures (higher taxes, cuts in trivial spending, no cuts or tackling of state pensions or illegal immigration costs) while the very same people in the legislature who caused the problems applaud. Just crazy.

Can you explain how tackling of state pensions would improve the state of the budget?

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 8:23am.

EmilyHicks wrote:
Tackling a failed pension system should be the first thing to do.

The pension system is a time bomb - I've brought this up many times. However the problems with the pension system do not impact the current budget. (It's just our children that will bear this massive burden.)

Governor Brown has to solve the immediate problem first.

I do agree that public safety compensation is out of control and fraud is rampant. I have no doubt that we could receive the same level of service at a fraction of the cost. We could pay firefighters less than six digits and still be just as safe.

Quote:
And NO, teachers are not underpaid. They make an average of 86k with cushy pension and 3.5 months off every year.

I've never heard of a teacher making six digits, so I find it very hard to believe that they make an average of $86K. You'll need to cite a source on that one.

Although I'm a big critic of state worker compensation, I hesitate to lump teachers in with the rest.

I know many smart people who would never choose to be a teacher because of the poor compensation. I've never heard of anyone turning down a firefighter job because of the pay.

We need to be selective about where we cut:

Cut education and we deny our children future opportunities.

Cut firefighter and other state worker's pensions (e.g. CalTrans), and we save our children from massive tax burdens when they are adults.

Quote:
Yes, illegal immigrants is a big problem. In Santa Ana, 80% of the students are children of illegals.

That's a pretty extreme statistic - Got a source?

The illegal immigration "problem" is massively exaggerated. And even if it were a problem, how do we stop spending on them? What specifically do we cut?

We don't need scapegoats, we need solutions.

Submitted by EmilyHicks on February 1, 2011 - 8:50am.

From this Article, average mid career salary for teachers:
Anaheim Union: 86.7k
Cypress Elementary: 70k
Huntington Beach High: 81k
Laguna Beach: 80k

And don't forget about the 3.5 months off.

http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-04-0...

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 8:58am.

Average "mid-career" and overall average are quite different.

For teachers, mid-career is effectively "max"

My kids don't get 3.5 months off, so I'm not sure how teachers could get that much.

Submitted by ninaprincess on February 1, 2011 - 9:03am.

I think mid career Engineers get around 100k for the same training, so 80k is not too much for teachers.

From the article, the higher range salaries are much higher than the mid career number. So mid career is not the MAX. "The highest salaries offered range from $91,144 at Fountain Valley Elementary to $111,701 at Laguna Beach."

1 week spring break
2 weeks winter break
11 weeks summer break

Submitted by teacherSD on February 1, 2011 - 9:01am.

zk wrote:
Sure, work on fixing illegal immigrant costs. But, after that, what would you do, exactly, faterikcartman, to fix the budget?

Here's a little something to get you started:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/budget/

That's an awesome link, thanks for sharing. I'm going to use it with my students this week.

Submitted by EconProf on February 1, 2011 - 9:15am.

As zk's link showed, CA prisoners cost the state $51,000 per year. I've read that Texas spends $25,000 per year, Montana $15,000. Perhaps we could outsource more prisoners to these states (we already do that a little), and benefit both CA taxpayers and let these more efficient states run a little profit.

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 9:29am.

EconProf wrote:
CA prisoners cost the state $51,000 per year.

In other words, we spend about as much on a single prisoner as we do per teacher in a classroom with 25+ students.

Submitted by desmond on February 1, 2011 - 9:33am.

"The pension system is a time bomb - I've brought this up many times. However the problems with the pension system do not impact the current budget. (It's just our children that will bear this massive burden.)"

pRI-

"In the governor’s proposed budget, the state payment to CalPERS increases from $3.8 billion to $4.1 billion, CalSTRS from $1.3 billion to $1.4 billion, and retiree health care from $1.4 billion to $1.6 billion"

This does impact the budget and now it is impacting the State even more:http://calpensions.com/

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 9:34am.

ninaprincess wrote:
From the article, the higher range salaries are much higher than the mid career number. So mid career is not the MAX. "The highest salaries offered range from $91,144 at Fountain Valley Elementary to $111,701 at Laguna Beach.

How about source that just provides the *average* instead of selectively choosing the highest numbers to make an argument?

What is the (unqualified) average teacher salary in the state of CA?

I have no doubt it's way south of $86K.

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 9:38am.

desmond wrote:
"In the governor’s proposed budget, the state payment to CalPERS increases from $3.8 billion to $4.1 billion, CalSTRS from $1.3 billion to $1.4 billion, and retiree health care from $1.4 billion to $1.6 billion"

This does impact the budget and now it is impacting the State even more:http://calpensions.com/

Fair points.

Although unfortunately some of these increases may be mandated the law. The state really screwed itself when it made these pension promises - there's essentially no legal way out of it.

Submitted by all on February 1, 2011 - 9:39am.

pri_dk wrote:
EconProf wrote:
CA prisoners cost the state $51,000 per year.

In other words, we spend about as much on a single prisoner as we do per teacher in a classroom with 25+ students.

Adjusted for cost of living, California spends $7,571 per student, compared to $9,963 per student nationally.
California slips a notch in per pupil expenditures

I taught high school Math for a year fresh out of college. The pay was less than half of what I made in the first year of my next job, the kids were annoying and the parents were worse.

Submitted by ninaprincess on February 1, 2011 - 9:58am.

The problem with 'average' is that it will include part time teachers and teacher aides.

pri_dk wrote:
ninaprincess wrote:
From the article, the higher range salaries are much higher than the mid career number. So mid career is not the MAX. "The highest salaries offered range from $91,144 at Fountain Valley Elementary to $111,701 at Laguna Beach.

How about source that just provides the *average* instead of selectively choosing the highest numbers to make an argument?

What is the (unqualified) average teacher salary in the state of CA?

I have no doubt it's way south of $86K.

Submitted by ninaprincess on February 1, 2011 - 10:02am.

If there is no money to pay, there will be a way of getting around it. how about pay them what the state owes and then fire them all and rehire with a different pension system. Reagan fired all air traffic controllers in 1983.

pri_dk wrote:
desmond wrote:
"In the governor’s proposed budget, the state payment to CalPERS increases from $3.8 billion to $4.1 billion, CalSTRS from $1.3 billion to $1.4 billion, and retiree health care from $1.4 billion to $1.6 billion"

This does impact the budget and now it is impacting the State even more:http://calpensions.com/

Fair points.

Although unfortunately some of these increases may be mandated the law. The state really screwed itself when it made these pension promises - there's essentially no legal way out of it.

Submitted by jimmyle on February 1, 2011 - 10:07am.

The public employee unions financed Brown. Pay back time huh? There is zero chance that the voters go for the tax extension, unless the illegals can vote.

I think it is pretty safe to say that pRI- is a public employee or has relative who is.

desmond wrote:
"The pension system is a time bomb - I've brought this up many times. However the problems with the pension system do not impact the current budget. (It's just our children that will bear this massive burden.)"

pRI-

"In the governor’s proposed budget, the state payment to CalPERS increases from $3.8 billion to $4.1 billion, CalSTRS from $1.3 billion to $1.4 billion, and retiree health care from $1.4 billion to $1.6 billion"

This does impact the budget and now it is impacting the State even more:http://calpensions.com/

Submitted by desmond on February 1, 2011 - 10:14am.

nina,
You are right, the "no legal way out" of the pensions is just the latest tactic brought on by the unions. No money= no pensions.

Submitted by jstoesz on February 1, 2011 - 10:16am.

jimmyle,

wow, impugning motives awfully quick, aren't we?

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 10:21am.

jimmyle wrote:
I think it is pretty safe to say that pRI- is a public employee or has relative who is.

Not since I was in the Army - nearly 20 years ago.

A quote from Buggs Bunny is the appropriate response:

"He don't know me vewy well, do he?"

Some reading material for ya:
http://piggington.com/ot_public_pay_amp_...

Submitted by andymajumder on February 1, 2011 - 10:22am.

ninaprincess wrote:
I think mid career Engineers get around 100k for the same training, so 80k is not too much for teachers.

From the article, the higher range salaries are much higher than the mid career number. So mid career is not the MAX. "The highest salaries offered range from $91,144 at Fountain Valley Elementary to $111,701 at Laguna Beach."

1 week spring break
2 weeks winter break
11 weeks summer break

Comparing mid career engineers to teachers through a generic statement is absolutely absurd. How is the training of a computer engineer in anyway similar to that of a english teacher or physical education teacher.
Moreover, engineers don't get to unionize like teachers do. If engineers could unionize like teachers we would not have a Google, Apple or Qualcomm here in the US.... If teacher salary was based purely on supply and demand, their salaries would be much lower.

Submitted by Coronita on February 1, 2011 - 10:35am.

LOL....

I don't think there anything any politician to do that could save CA from fiscal ruin...There's too many sacred cows from too many self interest groups, and not a collective, we all need to pay more (or cut more). Folks don't want to pay higher taxes because they don't want higher taxes to go into public pension increases. People with public pensions don't want to see their benefits cut, and public employees, teachers, fire/police don't want to see their pay cut...There's plenty of advocacy groups who think that we illegal immigrants should enjoy benefits for which they don't need to pay for...And there's plenty of businesses that don't want the state to raise anymore taxes either.

Just let it ride....Issue more bonds until they become junk...And finally when they are junk, just force someone else to write them off....Heck, eventually the rest of the world will have to write off our national debt anyway, might as well houseclean and tack on all the state debt into the federal level.....

Question: how can you tell a politician is lying?

Answer: his lips are moving....

Submitted by permabear on February 1, 2011 - 11:06am.

Without raising taxes a good 20-30%, and laying off large amounts of public workers, I agree with flu that we're more or less screwed.

Much of the American quality of life has been based on an unsustainable rate of population growth, combined with taking advantage of foreign resources and workers. Those wells are drying up.

Submitted by harvey on February 1, 2011 - 11:29am.

andymajumder wrote:
If teacher salary was based purely on supply and demand, their salaries would be much lower.

Exactly how does one quantify "demand" for a teacher?

The demand for any labor skill is ultimately based upon the expected return on investment.

Local company is considering developing a new cell phone. They need 20 engineers to do it. Estimate the manufacturing costs and the expected revenue, etc. and they can estimate how much they can pay the engineers and still make a profit.

The model for just about every job involving engineers is the same:Company makes an investment, in facilities, and labor, and company sees a direct financial return in a few years.

That's what sets the market price for engineers.

Education has some very unique economic characteristics.

What's the return on investment for teaching a 6 year-old kid how to read (it's not zero, but what is it?)

When do we actually see that return?

Who realizes that return? (who benefits? - is it just the kid?)

The economic models for public education and private enterprise are very different.

Submitted by Djshakes on February 1, 2011 - 11:31am.

ninaprincess wrote:
I think mid career Engineers get around 100k for the same training, so 80k is not too much for teachers.

From the article, the higher range salaries are much higher than the mid career number. So mid career is not the MAX. "The highest salaries offered range from $91,144 at Fountain Valley Elementary to $111,701 at Laguna Beach."

1 week spring break
2 weeks winter break
11 weeks summer break

If an engineer makes $100k there is no way in hell a teacher should make $80K. Engineering majors fall on the harder end of the education spectrum where teachers fall on the liberal arts easier side of the education spectrum. Period. No way in hell are they even comparable.

This opinion is coming from a licensed education major with 3 years of public high school experience under my belt before I changed career paths. From my experience and interaction with other teachers, you don't have to be extremely brilliant to be a teacher like the Hollywood movies may portray. I seldom took work home and it wasn't a difficult career. I was in an elective department and our FTEs were based on enrollment unlike the core courses. So you had to be a good teacher with good courses in order to justify your position. Others in core departments had a lot more job security.

It has been proven time and time again that money dumped into the education system doesn't produce test results. In fact, doesn't CA spend more per student than any other state with the worst results?

Also, it is almost impossible to fire a teacher because of the unions. They just shift the bad teachers around to different districts. It is called "the turkey trot".

Submitted by Djshakes on February 1, 2011 - 11:34am.

pri_dk wrote:
andymajumder wrote:
If teacher salary was based purely on supply and demand, their salaries would be much lower.

Exactly how does one quantify "demand" for a teacher?

The demand for any labor skill is ultimately based upon the expected return on investment.

Local company is considering developing a new cell phone. They need 20 engineers to do it. Estimate the manufacturing costs and the expected revenue, etc. and they can estimate how much they can pay the engineers and still make a profit.

The model for just about every job involving engineers is the same:Company makes an investment, in facilities, and labor, and company sees a direct financial return in a few years.

That's what sets the market price for engineers.

Education has some very unique economic characteristics.

What's the return on investment for teaching a 6 year-old kid how to read (it's not zero, but what is it?)

When do we actually see that return?

Who realizes that return? (who benefits? - is it just the kid?)

The economic models for public education and private enterprise are very different.

Test results. I am not a huge standardized test fan because I think teachers tend to teach to the test but mathematical and grammar tests don't lie when looked at on an individual basis.

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