OT- Zimmerman v. Martin

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Submitted by briansd1 on March 30, 2012 - 4:14pm

The Trayvon Marting killing is interesting.

I'm starting to believe that George Zimmerman's dad who is a retired judge is coaching his son how to beat the system.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...

It will be interesting to see how technology helps resolve this case. You have cell phone records, video and 911 recordings. How will enhancing those recording provide insights into the truth?

If Zimmerman was injured by Martin, did he seek medical treatment?

Fascinating case.

Submitted by ocrenter on March 30, 2012 - 6:21pm.

It is the South.

This is expected.

Submitted by paramount on March 31, 2012 - 1:18am.

I'm not sure what to believe at this point; it's been over a month since the incident. I think as time passed 'facts' have become distorted.

Submitted by ocrenter on March 31, 2012 - 7:32am.

paramount wrote:
I'm not sure what to believe at this point; it's been over a month since the incident. I think as time passed 'facts' have become distorted.

The facts are all there. Zimmerman was trailing the kid on the 911 tape. That is evidence this was not a "stand your ground" defense.

There was no physical sign of harm on Zimmerman on the police tape. Refuting his claim he was bloodied by Martin.

The coroner report on Martin did not indicate any physical altercation took place.

An African American's life is intrinsically worth less in this country, that is a fact. Especially in the South. I have friends that grew up in the South. They tell me racism is so intrenched and ingrained into the culture and so deeply woven into the society that there is no hope for equality there except in name.

What the police did does not surprise me, at all.

Submitted by svelte on March 31, 2012 - 9:00am.

This is not a clear cut case.

Rodney King, with the beating caught on tape, that was clear cut.

With this one, either side's version of the truth could have actually happened. I'm gonna sit this one out and let the legal system decide based on all evidence.

I do find it absurd that people who haven't heard all the evidence are protesting injustice (not referring to piggs, but to the gatherings I've seen in the news) prior to a thorough hearing of all relevant aspects.

And there seems to be an assumption that he was followed because he was black. Would he still have been followed if he was a white kid in a hoodie? I can tell you a few teens have walked through my neighborhood that I've kept a close eye on, and they were white.

Submitted by briansd1 on March 31, 2012 - 9:44am.

The rules of neighborhood watch don't allow following suspects and patroling with guns. You watch and report supicious activities to police.

Zimmerman was a cop wannabe and a vigilante.

Zimmerman claims a broken nose and injuries from the attack. But then he goes into hiding so that his injuries miraculously heal before the reappers in public.

To me this reeks of a retired judge doing all he can to protect his son. The family and their "friends" are working overtime to avoid Zimmerman going to prison.

I used to live in Florida and I still go there often. As ocrenter said, in the South, racism is part of the culture. Full integration in law was not fully achieved until the late 60s/1970, not that long ago. Things will not really change until those who are born before 1970 pass away. It will take several more generations.

I know a White English Canadian family who own a vacation home in Florida. They are nice people. The old man is an engineer and his wife is a teacher.

Of their kids, one daughter married an Indian professional. One son married a Laotian woman. But they are not happy with this and keep on telling their kids they should've married their own kinds. They would say things like "it's so nice back in Canada, there are no Blacks there, we are among our own people."

Submitted by zk on March 31, 2012 - 10:02am.

svelte wrote:
This is not a clear cut case.

Rodney King, with the beating caught on tape, that was clear cut.

I wouldn't call the Rodney King case clear cut at all. The beating was caught on tape, but not what led up to it. King throwing two officers at a time off his back and charging them. A strong, enraged, violent man on the attack. That wasn't shown on the tape.

Submitted by svelte on March 31, 2012 - 10:38am.

zk wrote:
svelte wrote:
This is not a clear cut case.

Rodney King, with the beating caught on tape, that was clear cut.

I wouldn't call the Rodney King case clear cut at all. The beating was caught on tape, but not what led up to it. King throwing two officers at a time off his back and charging them. A strong, enraged, violent man on the attack. That wasn't shown on the tape.

...but once a person is in submission, the beating should not continue. Secure him and haul him in. End of story.

Submitted by Coronita on March 31, 2012 - 11:15am.

briansd1 wrote:
The rules of neighborhood watch don't allow following suspects and patroling with guns. You watch and report supicious activities to police.

Zimmerman was a cop wannabe and a vigilante.

Zimmerman claims a broken nose and injuries from the attack. But then he goes into hiding so that his injuries miraculously heal before the reappers in public.

To me this reeks of a retired judge doing all he can to protect his son. The family and their "friends" are working overtime to avoid Zimmerman going to prison.

I used to live in Florida and I still go there often. As ocrenter said, in the South, racism is part of the culture. Full integration in law was not fully achieved until the late 60s/1970, not that long ago. Things will not really change until those who are born before 1970 pass away. It will take several more generations.

I know a White English Canadian family who own a vacation home in Florida. They are nice people. The old man is an engineer and his wife is a teacher.

Of their kids, one daughter married an Indian professional. One son married a Laotian woman. But they are not happy with this and keep on telling their kids they should've married their own kinds. They would say things like "it's so nice back in Canada, there are no Blacks there, we are among our own people."

Except you have one problem that kinda contradicts what you would like to pigeonhole this case into (white versus black thing)... I mean, is the dude really white? Does it really matter?

Submitted by briansd1 on March 31, 2012 - 11:24am.

svelte wrote:

...but once a person is in submission, the beating should not continue. Secure him and haul him in. End of story.

Yes. There is no justification for the police to act like savages.

After all, as ca renter likes to say, aren't the police highly qualified "professionals" who have extensive training in law enforcement?

Technology can be an invasion of privacy... but Technology such as video surveillance is making things more transparent.

Without the camera, the killers in this case might have gotten off:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09...

Submitted by briansd1 on March 31, 2012 - 11:23am.

flu wrote:

Except you have one big problem in this case. Is Zimmerman really white? I mean, I guess Brian it would be convenient if he was, for your argument sake... But is he? Does it really matter?

Zimmerman is White. If you know Hispanic culture, you would understand. There are difference shades of Hispanics and a long history too.

What bothers me with this case is that the Police Chief and the State Attorney overruled the investigator on the scene.

The homeowners' association will end up paying for this killing because they implemented a half-ass neighborhood watch.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/na...

Submitted by paramount on March 31, 2012 - 11:54am.

briansd1 wrote:

Without the camera, the killers in this case might have gotten off:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/mississippi-teen-deryl-dedmon-hate-crime-video_n_922357.html

I had never heard of that case; absolutely shocking if true.

If convicted the main perps in that case should get the death penalty within 5 years, and the remaining perps should get life w/out parole, with 10 years in solitary to start off. Then hard labor for the rest of their life.

Submitted by svelte on March 31, 2012 - 12:01pm.

briansd1 wrote:

Zimmerman is White. If you know Hispanic culture, you would understand. There are difference shades of Hispanics and a long history too.

If Zimmerman is White, then so is Obama.

Submitted by ocrenter on March 31, 2012 - 1:43pm.

svelte wrote:
This is not a clear cut case.

So if this was not a clear cut case, why did the police act like it was.

In the eyes of the police, we had a black teenager in a gated community. That's already "wrong type of guy in the wrong type of place."

Zimmerman was the "guy protecting his home" against a "wrong type of guy in the wrong type of place."

Therefore, Martin getting shot seemed very clear cut to the police.

For a Southern white policeman, Martin deserved to get shot, that was extremely clear. thus Zimmerman was released and not charged. Why would he be charged???

Submitted by zk on March 31, 2012 - 1:47pm.

svelte wrote:

...but once a person is in submission, the beating should not continue. Secure him and haul him in. End of story.

briansd1 wrote:

Yes. There is no justification for the police to act like savages.

After all, as ca renter likes to say, aren't the police highly qualified "professionals" who have extensive training in law enforcement?

Technology can be an invasion of privacy... but Technology such as video surveillance is making things more transparent.

Without the camera, the killers in this case might have gotten off:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/09/mississippi-teen-deryl-dedmon-hate-crime-video_n_922357.html

Are you sure he was "in submission?" Easy to say, as he didn't get up again once the video started (the part they showed over and over again on tv, anyway). But he had gotten up at least once after he appeared to be secured. Would you be willing to bet your life (and that of the father of your children's) that he was "in submission?" I wouldn't. My point isn't that the cops weren't without fault. My point is that it isn't a clear cut case and that the parts of the video most often shown leave out crucial evidence, and that events occurred before the video that we can't be sure of.

Submitted by ocrenter on March 31, 2012 - 1:47pm.

svelte wrote:
briansd1 wrote:

Zimmerman is White. If you know Hispanic culture, you would understand. There are difference shades of Hispanics and a long history too.

If Zimmerman is White, then so is Obama.

Zimmerman's race has nothing to do with this. He could have even been black.

The point here is if you are a black guy walking in the neighborhood, the presumption is you are up to no good until proven otherwise.

The police and everyone else already have that presumption, so when someone shot him, it had to be in self defense, there was no other possible scenario. that is how ingrained and pervasive the racial attitude is.

Submitted by CardiffBaseball on March 31, 2012 - 11:07pm.

C'mon people do I have to educate you on race in Florida.

Since Zimmerman is considered the "perp" in this case he is a "white hispanic".

However if the situation were completely different and we were talking about a victim of something that appears to be racially motivated, then they are simply "hispanics". In that case we drop the "white".

By the way Brian do you farkin' know any Dominicans? Most look black. They consider themselves "hispanic". In no way shape or form do they consider themselves aligned in any way with african-americans, nor do AA's consider them part of the club. So I think the term "white hispanic" is basically one-step away from being retarded.

Remember the media lies like an MFer about race to rile people up if you've ever seen the MSNBC vid proving they lie to "make a story". I'll find the link if you haven't. The narrative here as it became a media sensation was that it was a white-on-black crime. The only thing they could do at that point was save face calling him white-hispanic.

Sorry I live the next town south of Sanford and am watching the developments closely, and am really tired of the criminal extortionists in town (sharpton) whooping people into a frenzy. Even if we say Zimmermann is a white, white-on-black crime is almost statistically insignificant as a problem in our society, so I don't appreciate Jesse screaming about black people being under attack. Today he seemed to temper those dumb-ass statements and just talk about violence in general being out of control and I can't disagree with him there.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on March 31, 2012 - 11:32pm.

CardiffBaseball wrote:
C'mon people do I have to educate you on race in Florida.

Since Zimmerman is considered the "perp" in this case he is a "white hispanic".

However if the situation were completely different and we were talking about a victim of something that appears to be racially motivated, then they are simply "hispanics". In that case we drop the "white".

By the way Brian do you farkin' know any Dominicans? Most look black. They consider themselves "hispanic". In no way shape or form do they consider themselves aligned in any way with african-americans, nor do AA's consider them part of the club. So I think the term "white hispanic" is basically one-step away from being retarded.

Remember the media lies like an MFer about race to rile people up if you've ever seen the MSNBC vid proving they lie to "make a story". I'll find the link if you haven't. The narrative here as it became a media sensation was that it was a white-on-black crime. The only thing they could do at that point was save face calling him white-hispanic.

Sorry I live the next town south of Sanford and am watching the developments closely, and am really tired of the criminal extortionists in town (sharpton) whooping people into a frenzy. Even if we say Zimmermann is a white, white-on-black crime is almost statistically insignificant as a problem in our society, so I don't appreciate Jesse screaming about black people being under attack. Today he seemed to temper those dumb-ass statements and just talk about violence in general being out of control and I can't disagree with him there.

Cardiff: Yup, because if you mention black-on-black crime, which is at epidemic proportions, especially in cities like Chicago, you're labeled a racist.

Why isn't Al Sharpton or Soledad O'Brien "getting to the bottom" of that?

From a 2005 FBI report: Blacks make up 13% of the population, but are responsible for 49% of the homicides. In 93% of those cases, the victims were black. The most dangerous threat to a black man aged 17 - 29 isn't some yutz like Zimmerman, it's another black man.

But we can't talk about that, can we? Nope. Because that would mean opening up an actual dialogue about the destruction of the black family, the glorification of violence, misogyny and the "thug life" and the sad fact that race hustlas like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have made a fat living off white guilt and race-baiting.

This is nothing more than manufactured outrage in an election year. If Zimmerman had been black, we wouldn't have heard a peep about this.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on March 31, 2012 - 11:35pm.

ocrenter wrote:

An African American's life is intrinsically worth less in this country, that is a fact.

OCR: Yup, it is a fact. Especially when it comes to victimization by another black.

Submitted by harvey on April 1, 2012 - 1:08am.

I don't think the DA's decision not to prosecute was motivated by race. I think it really is because of the bizarre nature of the "stand your ground" law and the ridiculous precedents that have been set in the interpretation of the law thus far (including a case where innocent bystanders were killed in a gang shootout and it was ruled members of neither gang could be prosecuted because they both were, of course, "defending themselves...")

Where I do see racism is the convoluted attempts to defend Zimmerman's actions by arguing that a child who had committed no wrongdoing deserved summary execution by a wannabe cop.

Zimmerman's version of the events is extremely specious. Even if Martin did strike Zimmerman, the common sense explanation - in fact the only plausible explanation - is that Martin was fighting back after being stalked and confronted - completely reasonable behavior.

How anyone can conclude that Martin deserved to die and Zimmerman should face no consequences in this situation is beyond logic. But we don't need to look for logic to explain how some come to these conclusions.

If Zimmerman were black and Martin were white, I think the DA would have applied the same way, as the "stand your ground law" is horribly conceived. But I'm certain that the right wing media would not be defending Zimmerman, let alone portraying him as some sort of law-abiding victim.

Submitted by paramount on April 1, 2012 - 1:14am.

2008 presidential elections: Florida is a Blue state by 2.8%.

Submitted by harvey on April 1, 2012 - 1:16am.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
This is nothing more than manufactured outrage in an election year. If Zimmerman had been black, we wouldn't have heard a peep about this.

Election year?

An innocent child is shot dead walking home from the grocery store.

The police know who the killer is, but do nothing.

And you are claiming it's all an election stunt?

Wow.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on April 1, 2012 - 1:26am.

pri_dk wrote:
Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
This is nothing more than manufactured outrage in an election year. If Zimmerman had been black, we wouldn't have heard a peep about this.

Election year?

An innocent child is shot dead walking home from the grocery store.

The police know who the killer is, but do nothing.

And you are claiming it's all an election stunt?

Wow.

See Obama's comment about Trayvon looking like his son (if he had one). He is utterly and completely silent regarding the black-on-black slaughter in his home base of Chicago, but chooses to speak out on this?

Yeah. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a frickin' duck.

Add to this the noisome bleatings of Sharpton, Jackson, et al, along with all the associated nonsense in the media, which never seems to seriously report black-on-black crime, but has somehow seized onto this.

Cuz, you know, half white vigilantism in the suburbs is a mortal threat to black teenagers! Puh-leeze.

Where's Tawana Brawley when you need her? Or the Duke lacrosse team?

Submitted by harvey on April 1, 2012 - 1:43am.

Allan, you sure have a lot to say about black people.

And always have something so say about Obama.

Here's the little voice inside Allan's head: Obama, Obama, Obmma, OBAMA, Obama...

Seriously dude, put down the Drudge Report and consider for a moment that not every issue in the world is about Obama.

Lots of people, on both sides of the political spectrum had a WTF response when they first heard this story. Sure it's become polarized now, but that's just the partisan media doing it's thing.

But you know the story is not about a self-defense law, or the influence of the gun lobby, or the limits of neighborhood watch groups, or any of dozen other issues...

Of course not, it's about...OBAMA!

Submitted by ocrenter on April 1, 2012 - 8:26am.

Of course black on black crime is pervasive and awful.

But what does that have to do with the issue at hand???

We are talking about a case where a human being shot another human being, the cops know who the killer is, but let him walk.

Allan, how many cases of black on black murders do you know where the cops had the killer, the killer simply says "I was defending myself," and the cop goes, "good job, you can go home."

Submitted by KSMountain on April 1, 2012 - 10:43am.

svelte wrote:

...but once a person is in submission, the beating should not continue. Secure him and haul him in. End of story.

King did not submit. Watch the tape (not to mention what you *can't* see on the tape). They tell him to stay down and still so they can handcuff him and he *keeps* getting up, multiple times.

I don't support police administering a beating for "contempt of cop" or due to their own adrenaline or lack of professionalism or ego or cruelty or bravado.

But what I recall seeing on the tape is that King does NOT follow their instructions.

Multiple taser strikes might have helped, but if King died due to that there would be those who would wail in outrage.

Bottom line, if King didn't do what he did in the hours/minutes preceding the incident, the incident would not have occurred.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on April 1, 2012 - 11:10am.

ocrenter wrote:
Of course black on black crime is pervasive and awful.

But what does that have to do with the issue at hand???

We are talking about a case where a human being shot another human being, the cops know who the killer is, but let him walk.

Allan, how many cases of black on black murders do you know where the cops had the killer, the killer simply says "I was defending myself," and the cop goes, "good job, you can go home."

OCR: Yup, can't/won't argue with you there. But what it looks like is one thing and what it may be is another. Did Sanford PD screw the dog? Sure looks like it. However, FBI/DoJ is now involved, so we can't argue that it's going to end here, nor will there be a whitewash. I'm content to let due process do it's thing.

My point was more to the politicization of this event and the deafening silence regarding the horrific spectacle of black-on-black violence.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on April 1, 2012 - 11:24am.

pri_dk wrote:
Allan, you sure have a lot to say about black people.

And always have something so say about Obama.

Here's the little voice inside Allan's head: Obama, Obama, Obmma, OBAMA, Obama...

Seriously dude, put down the Drudge Report and consider for a moment that not every issue in the world is about Obama.

Lots of people, on both sides of the political spectrum had a WTF response when they first heard this story. Sure it's become polarized now, but that's just the partisan media doing it's thing.

But you know the story is not about a self-defense law, or the influence of the gun lobby, or the limits of neighborhood watch groups, or any of dozen other issues...

Of course not, it's about...OBAMA!

Pri: Ah, dangling the bait again, are we?

I don't have a lot to say about black people. I simply cited an FBI report and made mention of the pervasive glorification of violence within contemporary black culture. Yes, I'm quite sure that's racist, as now defined by Political Correctness and the grievance culture we live in.

Sorry, that dog won't hunt. Whites in this country are so shit-scared of being labeled with the "R" word, that they won't speak up and state the obvious for fear of it.

I don't read Drudge (never have) and don't listen to Limbaugh (never have). Obama CHOSE to involve himself in this situation and CHOSE to personalize it by remarking on how Trayvon looked like him. Doesn't get more personal than that, does it? All the while remaining TOTALLY silent about the real scourge of blacks in America (which, BTW, isn't dimwitted half-white neighborhood watch idiots).

Because that would mean admitting the failure of government policies that have effectively destroyed the black family in America and have resulted in a 73% out-of-wedlock birthrate, a high school dropout rate in excess of 50% and the creation of a permanent underclass in this country.

"There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.... After all we have been through. Just to think we can't walk down our own streets, how humiliating." Jesse Jackson

Submitted by briansd1 on April 1, 2012 - 11:51am.

Allan, you're talking social policy.

However, here we are talking about a particular case. Each case is different and the police and prosecutors work on each case individually.

Similarly, do we need to solve all the mortgage problems before we give justice to a homeowner who was obviously scammed?

*

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
admitting the failure of government policies that have effectively destroyed the black family in America and have resulted in a 73% out-of-wedlock birthrate, a high school dropout rate in excess of 50% and the creation of a permanent underclass in this country.

What makes your think that without those government policies things would not be even worse?

Submitted by sdrealtor on April 1, 2012 - 12:07pm.

+1 on ocr's commnet. Its simply a human being killing another with the killer in clear guilt of being the per. I dont care what color any of them are. Its a crime.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on April 1, 2012 - 2:05pm.

briansd1 wrote:

*

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
admitting the failure of government policies that have effectively destroyed the black family in America and have resulted in a 73% out-of-wedlock birthrate, a high school dropout rate in excess of 50% and the creation of a permanent underclass in this country.

What makes your think that without those government policies things would not be even worse?

Brian: Uh, because things were better BEFORE those policies? We've seen a massive hollowing out effect take place and much of it is attributable to the perverse incentives contained in those same government programs and policies.

The statistics certainly bear this out. Compare the astronomical sums spent versus the results. It isn't rocket science.

You have advanced the "What's the Matter with Kansas" argument before, asking why poor whites seem to vote against their self-interest. I'd ask "What's the Matter with Detroit" in retort. Blacks in this country have been voting against their LONG-TERM self interest for decades.

It's all of a piece and it doesn't have shit to do with racism, as pri slyly implied.

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