OT: Welcome to South California, the 51st state.....

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Submitted by Coronita on July 15, 2011 - 1:11pm

What a nutjob

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/07/14/califor...

Riverside, California (CNN) -- A conservative county supervisor in Southern California wants to form the 51st state by seceding the region from California, saying the state's problems require "radical" solutions.

"Listen, I knew I'd be criticized. I learned in my tenure of being a politician for 19 years, sometimes you have to do radical things to get people's attention," Riverside County Supervisor Jeff Stone said on CNN Thursday.

"We have hit a nerve with citizens who are just fed up with business as usual in the state," Stone said. "I'm talking about a secession plan from the state of California."

This week, the Riverside County Board of Supervisors gave the OK to Stone to hold a summit of California's local leaders to discuss remedies for the state's long list of woes -- including secession.

But the county board stopped short of endorsing Stone's secessionist plan by insisting no taxpayer money be used for the conference.

Stone has come up with a name for the new state: South California. It would be composed of 13 largely Republican counties, most of which are inland along the Nevada and Arizona state lines. The plan would exclude Los Angeles County, but would include Orange and San Diego Counties, both on the coast.

Stone has a long list of grievances against the state and its legislators: high taxes and fees, inability to reform welfare programs, high unemployment and excessive regulations.

"What the state has done is they've been balancing their budgets on the backs of our local coffers. They've been stealing our sales tax, property tax," Stone said. "The bottom line for me and my constituents is jobs. We are sending jobs out of the state of California by the train load."

Riverside County is among the hardest hit communities by the recession and mortgage meltdown, leaving many communities pockmarked with vacant homes, Stone said.

"We are the foreclosure capital of the world," Stone asserted. "We have some areas of the county that have 25% unemployment. The average in Riverside County is about 15%."

Stone's plan seems a long shot, one analyst said. There have been at least 27 efforts for secession within parts of California since the 1800s, and none has been successful.

Robert Melsh, a political science instructor at Mount San Jacinto College in San Jacinto, California, which is in Riverside County, said Stone's plan stunned him, largely because of the high cost of putting a secessionist plan before voters. He called it a "scare tactic."

"Insanity," Melsh said. "I mean this is major surgery where we need a Band-Aid.

"It takes millions of dollars to get the signatures necessary to put up an initiative," Melsh added.

Melsh also raised the question of getting a 51st state's government up and running.

"Where is he going to put the capitol? Disneyland?" Melsh said.

Stone, a pharmacist and owner of an innovative compounding pharmacy, said he drew the lines for a new state by picking 13 counties that were contiguous and fiscally conservative or moderate.

A date for the summit of local leaders has yet to be scheduled, he said.

Submitted by briansd1 on July 15, 2011 - 1:44pm.

flu wrote:
It would be composed of 13 largely Republican counties, most of which are inland along the Nevada and Arizona state lines.

I wonder why Republican areas are generally the poorest areas of the country.

Orange County, a prosperous county has been increasing turning blue since the defeat of Bob Dornan. Orange County would be a blue county if it weren't for the 1/2 million Vietnamese immigrants who are largely poor, on welfare, but vote Republican out of anti-communism.

In 2008, Orange County was about 38,000 votes short of turning blue.
election map: source NYTimes

Submitted by meadandale on July 15, 2011 - 1:46pm.

briansd1 wrote:
flu wrote:
It would be composed of 13 largely Republican counties, most of which are inland along the Nevada and Arizona state lines.

I wonder why Republican areas are generally the poorest areas of the country.

Orange County, a prosperous county has been increasing turning blue since the defeat of Bob Dornan. Orange County would be a blue county if it weren't for the 1/2 million Vietnamese immigrants who are largely poor, on welfare, but vote Republican out of anti-communism.

In 2008, Orange County was about 38,000 votes short of turning blue.
election map: source NYTimes

Funny...I don't think most fly over states are 'poor', just 'hard working'. I'll take country folk any day over the inner city.

Only in Amerika do 'poor people' have flat screen tv's and SUV's and are so over fed that there is an obesity crisis.

Submitted by ocrenter on July 15, 2011 - 1:51pm.

LA Times had the same article on the 11th:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-...

"It's a supremely ridiculous waste of everybody's time," said spokesman Gil Duran. "If you want to live in a Republican state with very conservative right-wing laws, then there's a place called Arizona.

Submitted by AK on July 15, 2011 - 4:41pm.

briansd1 wrote:
Orange County would be a blue county if it weren't for the 1/2 million Vietnamese immigrants who are largely poor, on welfare, but vote Republican out of anti-communism.

Hey Brian, can you back up that assertion about the O.C. Vietnamese-American community being largely on welfare?!?

I lived in Orange County for 16 years and I've met exactly one Vietnamese-American immigrant on welfare, and that was after losing his life's savings in a failed business venture.

Submitted by AK on July 15, 2011 - 4:53pm.

For that matter can you back up the "1/2 million" figure? There are about that many Asian-American residents of Orange County inclusive of all nationalities, Vietnamese Americans being perhaps a plurality but not a majority.

Submitted by briansd1 on July 15, 2011 - 5:43pm.

The use of services by ethnic group is pretty-well documented. People who work in social services would tell you that Vietnamese-Americans comprise a large portion of clients.

Here's one report.
http://www.ochna.org/publications/docume...

• The poverty rate for Vietnamese individuals and families is much higher than other race/ethnic groups; in 2008,
the poverty rate for Vietnamese people was 14.7%. The poverty rate for all individuals in Orange County was
9.9%.

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/pub/I...
The table below presents the percentages of welfare use by immigrants over the age of 65, both overall and from some of the larger immigrant groups, in 1990.

group % on welfare, California

all immigrants 45%
Chinese 55%
Filipino 39%
Iranian 26%
Korean 50%
Mexican 21%
Soviet Union 66%
Vietnamese 74%
all native-born 9%

If I get some time, I'll find you some more recent information.

Unfortunately, the academic studies tend to lag by a decade or two are more data is available and academics take interest in studying the populations.
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/gborjas/Pa...

From Frum Forum, here's an interesting article on Vietnamese voting for republicans.
http://www.frumforum.com/gop-losing-viet...
http://hiphoprepublican.com/general/2010...

Thankfully, as Vietnamese-Americans become more integrated, they vote more independently from their refugee parents.

http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2009/11/i...

Submitted by briansd1 on July 15, 2011 - 5:44pm.

AK wrote:
For that matter can you back up the "1/2 million" figure? There are about that many Asian-American residents of Orange County inclusive of all nationalities, Vietnamese Americans being perhaps a plurality but not a majority.

Yes, the 1/2 million is an exaggeration on my part. That's because I have Vietnamese-American friends who like to say that Little Saigon is 1/2 million.

I don't have the 2010 census info off-hand, but I wanted to respond nonetheless. 1/2 million total Asians in OC sounds about right.

But considering that "Vietnamese Americans voted in favor of John McCain over Barack Obama at a rate of 67% to 30%" a change in voting pattern in the Vietnamese-American community to reflect the general proportions in OC can easily turn Orange County into a nice shade of blue.

Submitted by Coronita on July 15, 2011 - 5:48pm.

briansd1 wrote:
The use of services by ethnic group is pretty-well documented. People who work in social services would tell you that Vietnamese-Americans comprise a large portion of clients.

Here's one report.
http://www.ochna.org/publications/docume...

• The poverty rate for Vietnamese individuals and families is much higher than other race/ethnic groups; in 2008,
the poverty rate for Vietnamese people was 14.7%. The poverty rate for all individuals in Orange County was
9.9%.

http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/pub/I...
The table below presents the percentages of welfare use by immigrants over the age of 65, both overall and from some of the larger immigrant groups, in 1990.

group % on welfare, California

all immigrants 45%
Chinese 55%
Filipino 39%
Iranian 26%
Korean 50%
Mexican 21%
Soviet Union 66%
Vietnamese 74%
all native-born 9%

If I get some time, I'll find you some more recent information.

Unfortunately, the academic studies tend to lag by a decade or two are more data is available and academics take interest in studying the populations.
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/gborjas/Pa...

From Frum Forum, here's an interesting article on Vietnamese voting for republicans.
http://www.frumforum.com/gop-losing-viet...
http://hiphoprepublican.com/general/2010...

Thankfully, as Vietnamese-Americans become more integrated, they vote more independently from their refugee parents.

http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2009/11/is-the-republican-party-taking-vietnamese-voters-for-granted/

You do realize a good portion of these immigrants are borderline welfare fraudsters...IE: kinda hard to substantiate overseas assets and income in the U.S. Just saying.....The sad part is some folks get better medical on Medicaid then folks on Medicare.

Submitted by briansd1 on July 15, 2011 - 6:07pm.

flu wrote:

You do realize a good portion of these immigrants are borderline welfare fraudsters...IE: kinda hard to substantiate overseas assets and income in the U.S. Just saying.....The sad part is some folks get better medical on Medicaid then folks on Medicare.

Perhaps you're right....

The UC Davis article referenced earlier is interesting paper about elderly Chinese-Americans' use of welfare:
http://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/pub/I...

But don't f---ing vote Republican if you're on the dole. Pretty dumb, IMO.

Interesting to me that only Vietnamese-American, of all Asian-Americans, disproportionally vote Republican. But Vietnamese-Americans are some of the heaviest users of social services.

For example, I heard that Vietnamese-American are heavy users of in-home medical services in OC. It would serve them right if the Republicans succeed in cutting off their services.

Submitted by an on July 15, 2011 - 7:01pm.

Brian, by that same logic, you should be voting Republicans based on your disdain of sales tax.

FYI, Vietnamese-Americans don't start migrating here until late 70s. So those who are over 65 in 1990 wouldn't have been here long enough to save for their own retirement. They also don't usually vote. Those who do vote are in their 40s in 1990 and the majority of them are either engineers or small biz owners.

Submitted by ocrenter on July 15, 2011 - 7:27pm.

AN wrote:
Brian, by that same logic, you should be voting Republicans based on your disdain of sales tax.

FYI, Vietnamese-Americans don't start migrating here until late 70s. So those who are over 65 in 1990 wouldn't have been here long enough to save for their own retirement. They also don't usually vote. Those who do vote are in their 40s in 1990 and the majority of them are either engineers or small biz owners.

most of them are very familiar with the welfare system given the refugee status of the past.

a huge part of the Vietnamese refugee group are also ethnic Chinese. I would not be surprised these groups then interact with ethnic Chinese immigrants from other countries and taught them the ropes.

given ethnic Chinese in general are exceptional when it comes to financial opportunities, this is all quite expected.

moral of the story: any time you have a program that gives away money, it will be abused.

Submitted by an on July 15, 2011 - 7:31pm.

ocrenter wrote:

moral of the story: any time you have a program that gives away money, it will be abused.

yep, I agree 1000%.

Submitted by AK on July 15, 2011 - 7:39pm.

A poverty rate of 14.7% is not that out of line with other ethnic groups, and is a far cry from saying that the majority live off welfare.

The attitude I sense is a major reason Orange County remains blue, and is the reason I remain an independent. I heard it all the time from local Democratic politicians, professors, etc. ... "Asian Americans are all Republicans, so you're wasting your time trying to talk to them." But I've never before heard anyone rooting for people to lose their benefits just because they voted the "wrong" way. That's just petty.

Submitted by briansd1 on July 15, 2011 - 8:08pm.

AN wrote:
Brian, by that same logic, you should be voting Republicans based on your disdain of sales tax.

I don't like to pay taxes if I can legally avoid them.

Individually, I understand that certain people will vote their conscience and for the right thing, no matter what their personal financial cirscumstances.

But from an aggregate statistical standpoint, it doesn't make sense. When I see the poor and least educated counties in Mississipi voting Republican, I really wonder what those voters are thinking.

Back to the original topic of California. What would the red counties of California achieve if they were to separate from the more prosperous blue counties?

I thought the Republicans believe that most of the taxes are paid by millionaires who live along the coast.

Plus I don't think that residents of San Diego and Orange counties would want to be part of South California.

So how would the new South California fund its government?

Submitted by mike92104 on July 15, 2011 - 9:43pm.

It wouldn't need a whole lot of funding because it would have a limited government.

Submitted by Ren on July 16, 2011 - 8:53am.

briansd1 wrote:

Back to the original topic of California. What would the red counties of California achieve if they were to separate from the more prosperous blue counties?

If you read the manifesto (http://californiarebellion2012.com/), quite a bit, but I'm not sure it would turn out the way they think. If they were able to pull it all off (part time legislature, etc.) I'd be all for it.

Quote:
So how would the new South California fund its government?

Not from mj taxes, that's for sure. Dammit, I think I just switched back to Nor Cal. Now I'll have to move.

Submitted by paramount on July 17, 2011 - 1:36pm.

A perfect example of why ideas like this (51st state) gain traction is the signing of the gay history education law by Brown last week.

Submitted by chrisM on July 17, 2011 - 4:06pm.

There is no argueing than most state boundaries, especially in the Western states, make little economical, geographical or cultural sense. In this respect, there has been 51st state proposals that deserve consideration. I'm thinking in particular about the Delmarva Peninsula or the reunion of Eastern WA and the ID panhandle.

But clearly this is not the case here. A southern CA state with half of the central plain on the other side of the Tehachapi moutains but without LA??? This guy had to fail geography in elementary school to suggest such NONSENSE.

More seriously, if we were to start diving states purely along partisan lines, why just stop there? This is exactly the kind of centrifuge forces that, in the long run, would tear apart a nation that otherwise gets pride and strength from its diversity.

Submitted by temeculaguy on July 17, 2011 - 11:30pm.

San Diego's assemblyman in 1851 tried to accomplish this in California's second year as a State. Funny how some things never change, a bad deal is a bad deal, in 1851 and today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoston_Har...

I agree with Agoston, that guy was such a visionary, we need an Agoston, but if he couldn;t do it, I doubt it can be done.

Let's see, Agoston accomplished
-San Diego's first Sheriff and Marshall
-built the first jail
-subdivided and developed everything from old town to downtown (little Italy and mid town was once called haraszartyville)
-built the first hospital
-brought almost every variety of grape and founded the wine industry in California

http://www.amazon.com/Strong-Wine-Legend...

-founded Buena Vista winery (still there, still good, the oldest existing winery)and founded the Napa and Sonoma wine region, not a bad idea in hindsight.

-It's still being debated, but many believe he invented Zinfandel

So this is the kind of guy who did everything he wanted in many parts of his life and 160 years later, most of what he thought still rings true and survives and he wanted two states, I'm with him. Conversely, this was a guy who was able to do almost anything, and even he couldn't make it so, so I doubt it will ever happen.

Submitted by ocrenter on July 18, 2011 - 7:29am.

chrisM wrote:
There is no argueing than most state boundaries, especially in the Western states, make little economical, geographical or cultural sense. In this respect, there has been 51st state proposals that deserve consideration. I'm thinking in particular about the Delmarva Peninsula or the reunion of Eastern WA and the ID panhandle.

But clearly this is not the case here. A southern CA state with half of the central plain on the other side of the Tehachapi moutains but without LA??? This guy had to fail geography in elementary school to suggest such NONSENSE.

More seriously, if we were to start diving states purely along partisan lines, why just stop there? This is exactly the kind of centrifuge forces that, in the long run, would tear apart a nation that otherwise gets pride and strength from its diversity.

this is really just gerrymandering on a grander scale.

I actually do see the logic behind partitioning of the state. but nice and even down the middle. leave it up to the politicians, you will always end up with a freakish monster.

and talk about state boundaries that do not make sense. most of the post-colonial Africa and Asia national boundaries do not make sense. At least people don't die and wars are not fought over these illogical state boundaries.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 18, 2011 - 8:26am.

It sure seems not very conservative to change state boundaries. The only question I have is is south California going to require a new bar exam.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 5, 2012 - 1:25pm.

briansd1 wrote:

But from an aggregate statistical standpoint, it doesn't make sense. When I see the poor and least educated counties in Mississipi voting Republican, I really wonder what those voters are thinking.

Brian: Yeah, kinda like wondering why blacks continue to vote Democrat? You'd be hard-pressed to find a party that has done more (through policies and programs) to utterly destroy the nuclear black family, along with obliterating educational and financial opportunities, than the Democratic Party.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 5, 2012 - 1:54pm.

paramount wrote:
A perfect example of why ideas like this (51st state) gain traction is the signing of the gay history education law by Brown last week.

Paramount: Wait, what? You don't feel that minority/ethnic groups comprising less than 4% of the population should be given special rights?

Don't you feel we should also add Uzbeki views on history to our laws? Or the beliefs of Zoroastrians? How's about the Basques? I think they're interesting and could add a lot to the national dialogue.

After all, if we're going to be all-inclusive, shouldn't we be ALL-inclusive? I mean failing to do so would be discriminatory, right? And being discriminatory is MEAN and it hurts people's feelings! We should always strive NEVER to hurt anyone's feelings. And if we don't strive hard enough, the gubment should make laws and things so that we're always nice. Because that's what Big Mommy Gubment is there for. To take care of ALL of our problems.

Submitted by spdrun on July 5, 2012 - 8:20pm.

California would be better off sticking together and asking to leave the US. They pay a lot more to DC than they get back. Bay Area is a strong economic/tech center -- why would anyone from SoCal want to lose that income source?

Even speaking as an auslander, the North/South urination contest is counterproductive, pointless, and a distraction from the real issue above.

Submitted by Brutus on July 6, 2012 - 4:45pm.

Damn. If South California became a red state, I might move back and bring my business with me!

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