OT: VW accused of evading emission tests

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Submitted by no_such_reality on September 18, 2015 - 12:54pm

VW could face $18-billion fine for evading smog rules, cheating pollution tests

Wow, from 2009 to 2015, VW is accused of writing engine control software to detect and change the engine programming during emission tests in order to pass and other wise allow up to 40X regulated levels.

Quote:
The German automaker – which has admitted manipulating the cars – will eventually have to recall all of the vehicles and change the emissions systems at its own expense, regulators said. Additionally it could face a fine of about $18 billion, or $37,500 per car, federal environmental officials said.

The software trick allows the cars to emit up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution, environmental officials said.

Double wow.

I don't foresee jail time which is unfortunate, but $18 Billion for this kind for premeditated fraud seems light, barely equal to the revenue from the selling of the modified vehicles. The penalty needs to be much steeper to make any other company pause.

Submitted by equalizer on September 24, 2015 - 5:27pm.

How to balance NOX emissions, C02 emissions, MPG, acceleration, torque, and price?

What do you want? BWW and Mercedes can afford expensive NOX filtration (urea tank) because they sell luxury cars where price point is not critical.

Maybe VW cant install same equipment without 10% increase in price or big hit to acceleration?

US/EURO test cycles are different so they design them differently to pass.

http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-clai...

Submitted by moneymaker on September 24, 2015 - 5:37pm.

equalizer wrote:
BMW and Mercedes can afford expensive NOX filtration (urea tank) because they sell luxury cars where price point is not critical.

Maybe VW cant install same equipment without 10% increase in price or big hit to accelerating

I believe the urea is only used sporadically to clean the catalytic converter but I could be wrong.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on September 24, 2015 - 5:59pm.

Maybe it's a good time to buy a used VW if you don't really care about emissions.

Submitted by ocrenter on September 24, 2015 - 7:39pm.

ltsdd wrote:

Years from now, when historians study this period of "growth" in China they'll realize that it's more or less a Great Leap BACKWARD part 2. Seems like they have learned nothing from that disastrous great leap forward in the '50s that essentially set the country back to the confucius era.

Well, they are just going through their industrial revolution except multiplied by 130 (UK at the time of industrial revolution had 10 million people, China is 130 times greater in population). Give them another couple more decades and they'll actually care about blue skies and clean water enough to force the government to make real changes. After that happens they'll have people go around saying stuff like FxCK YOU to government standards.

Submitted by utcsox on September 24, 2015 - 8:50pm.

bobby wrote:
but right now US gov is telling VW to bend over (and hold the lube)...

if you say so...

Submitted by paramount on September 24, 2015 - 9:34pm.

VW is in this position because of excessive regulations/taxes.

Regulations are a form of taxes.

Submitted by no_such_reality on September 25, 2015 - 6:17am.

paramount wrote:
VW is in this position because of excessive regulations/taxes.

Regulations are a form of taxes.

My water and sewage bill is too high because of excessive taxes and regulations. Something tells me if I circumvent them by dropping my morning constitutional on your front step you'll figure out the benefits.

Submitted by harvey on September 25, 2015 - 6:41am.

Whaaah! Big government made me do it!

What talk radio show put that one into your head?

The other diesel manufacturers, BMW, MB, etc. were able to build good cars that did not spew pollution.

VW cheated, big time.

No doubt there are quite a few nervous VW employees these days. Because some of them are going to jail ...

Submitted by ocrenter on September 25, 2015 - 9:59am.

harvey wrote:
Whaaah! Big government made me do it!

What talk radio show put that one into your head?

The other diesel manufacturers, BMW, MB, etc. were able to build good cars that did not spew pollution.

VW cheated, big time.

No doubt there are quite a few nervous VW employees these days. Because some of them are going to jail ...

this is the very reason why we need government regulation, yet somehow they are able to spin it as they cheat because of government regulations.

it is akin to a murderer blaming laws against killing.

Submitted by zk on September 25, 2015 - 11:16am.

dup

Submitted by zk on September 25, 2015 - 11:17am.

paramount wrote:
VW is in this position because of excessive regulations/taxes.

Regulations are a form of taxes.

This looks similar to Los Angeles in the early '80's. Take away the regulations, and it would look like that again. No thanks.

VW is in this position because they're cheating liars.

Submitted by moneymaker on September 25, 2015 - 11:48am.

So if the government cares so much how come it took them 6 years to figure this out. How come they don't do a tailpipe test of my VW that is 13 years old and on the sticker said upfront that it pollutes 3 times more than the average car when brand new? My guess is that VW paid some kind of pollution tax way back then and decided they didn't want to pay it anymore.

Submitted by paramount on September 25, 2015 - 2:47pm.

What about these high profile jerks flying around in private jets pointing their finger at you and your vw?

This reminds me of obamacare->the ptb's force it on the peasants/commoners, but absolutely don't want it for themselves.

Take off your leash....

Submitted by zk on September 25, 2015 - 2:47pm.

moneymaker wrote:
So if the government cares so much how come it took them 6 years to figure this out. How come they don't do a tailpipe test of my VW that is 13 years old and on the sticker said upfront that it pollutes 3 times more than the average car when brand new? My guess is that VW paid some kind of pollution tax way back then and decided they didn't want to pay it anymore.

You're complaining that it took the government too long to find out? So you want stronger oversight, is that what you're saying?

Submitted by zk on September 25, 2015 - 2:55pm.

paramount wrote:
What about these high profile jerks flying around in private jets pointing their finger at you and your vw?

This reminds me of obamacare->the ptb's force it on the peasants/commoners, but absolutely don't want it for themselves.

Take off your leash....

What about those high profile jerks? What's the question, exactly?

Which ptb's are rejecting the obamacare requirement for health insurance and going uninsured? Or is there some other aspect of obamacare that they "don't want for themselves?"

You're the one wearing a leash. A leash made of misdirection and emotional manipulation and placed there by the right-wing noise machine. A leash made so that you can be led to the opinion that government is bad and that corporations (which fund the right-wing noise machine) are good and fair and being screwed by the government.

Submitted by moneymaker on September 25, 2015 - 3:51pm.

No zk that's not what I'm saying though I can see how you could read it that way. I am being ironic about the government's hypocrisy. Cars pollute! The bigger the car/worse the mpg the more they pollute. What I didn't mention about my car is that it runs as good as it did the day I bought it, burns no oil, and gets over 40 MPG. I am actually pissed that they make me take it in to be smogged when they measure nothing during the so called smog test.

Submitted by svelte on September 28, 2015 - 6:53am.

They just admitted that Audis have the same cheat software:

http://www.ibtimes.com/volkswagen-says-g...

"Volkswagen’s board suspended the research and development heads of its core VW brand, its Audi arm, and the sports car Porsche division, sources told Reuters. Meanwhile, Audi reportedly announced that 2.1 million cars from the luxury brand came with the software designed to cheat on emission tests."

Submitted by scaredyclassic on September 28, 2015 - 7:19am.

i was kinda thinking id buy a vw diesel stationwagon as my next car. just looked cool. are used ones illegal now? can I get a screaming deal at a dealer?

is VW stock a buy?

Submitted by Coronita on September 28, 2015 - 8:14am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
i was kinda thinking id buy a vw diesel stationwagon as my next car. just looked cool. are used ones illegal now? can I get a screaming deal at a dealer?

is VW stock a buy?

There will probably be an ecu reprogram that will fix the problem at the cost of lower gas mileage or lower HP/tq... So, the cars will be functionally fine and compliant...But I think there will be a lot of inventory, because I think there will be a lot of ticked of former owners demanding a refund....

Worse though, might be a decision from auto car companies to abandon diesel in the U.S.

Submitted by spdrun on September 28, 2015 - 8:30am.

It might not be so simple -- they might have to retrofit the cars with urea injection (aka piss injection) systems.

Submitted by paramount on October 2, 2015 - 11:42pm.

zk wrote:
paramount wrote:
What about these high profile jerks flying around in private jets pointing their finger at you and your vw?

This reminds me of obamacare->the ptb's force it on the peasants/commoners, but absolutely don't want it for themselves.

Take off your leash....

What about those high profile jerks? What's the question, exactly?

Which ptb's are rejecting the obamacare requirement for health insurance and going uninsured? Or is there some other aspect of obamacare that they "don't want for themselves?"

You're the one wearing a leash. A leash made of misdirection and emotional manipulation and placed there by the right-wing noise machine. A leash made so that you can be led to the opinion that government is bad and that corporations (which fund the right-wing noise machine) are good and fair and being screwed by the government.

All I know is corporations don't point guns at you, government does...

Submitted by zk on October 3, 2015 - 8:01am.

paramount wrote:
zk wrote:
paramount wrote:
What about these high profile jerks flying around in private jets pointing their finger at you and your vw?

This reminds me of obamacare->the ptb's force it on the peasants/commoners, but absolutely don't want it for themselves.

Take off your leash....

What about those high profile jerks? What's the question, exactly?

Which ptb's are rejecting the obamacare requirement for health insurance and going uninsured? Or is there some other aspect of obamacare that they "don't want for themselves?"

You're the one wearing a leash. A leash made of misdirection and emotional manipulation and placed there by the right-wing noise machine. A leash made so that you can be led to the opinion that government is bad and that corporations (which fund the right-wing noise machine) are good and fair and being screwed by the government.

All I know is corporations don't point guns at you, government does...

When you can't even explain your own rants, that should be a sign to yourself that you've been emotionally manipulated.

Don't fall for the right-wing noise machine's bs. Don't be so credulous when you're watching/reading/listening.

Submitted by utcsox on October 3, 2015 - 8:46am.

flu wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
i was kinda thinking id buy a vw diesel stationwagon as my next car. just looked cool. are used ones illegal now? can I get a screaming deal at a dealer?

is VW stock a buy?

There will probably be an ecu reprogram that will fix the problem at the cost of lower gas mileage or lower HP/tq... So, the cars will be functionally fine and compliant ...But I think there will be a lot of inventory, because I think there will be a lot of ticked of former owners demanding a refund....

Worse though, might be a decision from auto car companies to abandon diesel in the U.S.

Is it really a fix if the gas mileage per gallon and performance (HP/Torque) both get worse? If the original car performance is BMW-like and after "the fix", it drives like a Toyota Prius with gas mileage of a truck. I will not be a happy camper. I

Submitted by paramount on October 3, 2015 - 9:31am.

The best video I've seen on the VM cheating issue - a TDI being tested:

https://youtu.be/GhvI2oeBPtY

Submitted by ltsddd on October 3, 2015 - 1:53pm.

utcsox wrote:
flu wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
i was kinda thinking id buy a vw diesel stationwagon as my next car. just looked cool. are used ones illegal now? can I get a screaming deal at a dealer?

is VW stock a buy?

There will probably be an ecu reprogram that will fix the problem at the cost of lower gas mileage or lower HP/tq... So, the cars will be functionally fine and compliant ...But I think there will be a lot of inventory, because I think there will be a lot of ticked of former owners demanding a refund....

Worse though, might be a decision from auto car companies to abandon diesel in the U.S.

Is it really a fix if the gas mileage per gallon and performance (HP/Torque) both get worse? If the original car performance is BMW-like and after "the fix", it drives like a Toyota Prius with gas mileage of a truck. I will not be a happy camper. I

If that's the "fix", then I could see either a riot or a massive class-action lawsuit from the current owners. Heck, as it stands, I think there'll be a massive class-action lawsuit, regardless fix or no fix.

Submitted by no_such_reality on October 8, 2015 - 7:26pm.

LOL, a top VW exec blamed a couple rogue software developers for the emissions thing

Quote:
“This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason,” Michael Horn, VW’s U.S. chief, told a House subcommittee hearing. “To my understanding, this was not a corporate decision. This was something individuals did.”

Wow is he that clueless or just that boldface of a liar? Or worse, he's telling the truth and VW really has no idea what has been encoded into their engine control modules?

Submitted by XBoxBoy on October 8, 2015 - 9:09pm.

no_such_reality wrote:
LOL, a top VW exec blamed a couple rogue software developers for the emissions thing

Quote:
“This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason,” Michael Horn, VW’s U.S. chief, told a House subcommittee hearing. “To my understanding, this was not a corporate decision. This was something individuals did.”

Wow is he that clueless or just that boldface of a liar? Or worse, he's telling the truth and VW really has no idea what has been encoded into their engine control modules?

I've wondered this since the story broke. How high up the food chain was aware of what was going on?

Depending on how much code review was going on, it wouldn't be hard to slip something like this in. Over the years, programmers have slipped all kinds of things into applications and games. But what would be the motivation of a software engineer to do this?

My guess is that a directive to get better performance probably came down the food chain, and someone shrugged and said,
"Okay here you go, I'll just turn off the emission controls. There fixed that." It's funny how crazy things like that can happen in a corporate environment where the bosses don't want bad news, only good, and employees are pressured to show results at whatever costs.

Just a guess though. Could also be that plenty of people knew and VW is just trying to cover their collective ass.

Submitted by Hatfield on October 8, 2015 - 10:03pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
is VW stock a buy?

That's a good question. When the Boeing Dreamliner battery thing happened, their stock took a dip and I considered buying because I figured, okay, this is pretty straightforward, their engineers are gonna figure this one out, and in the meantime they still have a 5 year backlog of orders. I regret not having jumped on it, but the dip was smaller than I thought it would be. (Once again I was not the smart money).

The VW thing seems much different to me. It seems unlikely that the emissions-compliant fix will generate the same power and efficiency the cheat software did (otherwise they wouldn't have bothered) and their diesel products may well never recover from this. The company itself may never recover. Plus, unlike Boeing airplanes, I think VWs are crap cars. So I'm staying away. See, I'm a scaredy cat too!

Submitted by Hobie on October 9, 2015 - 6:00am.

XBox: +1

The fix of existing cars and the legal spanking will bleed VW for many years.

Still think there is a lot of potential for diesel powered cars. VW may survive if they can make the highest hp, low emission, etc. leading the diesel auto industry going forward. But that takes $$.

I think this will take too long, so, "I'm Out".

Submitted by no_such_reality on October 9, 2015 - 6:59am.

Xbox, Easter eggs yes, emission controls I'm not so sure. no one asked any questions about how when the testing improves by 40x? The concept of the Code is fairly simple, its implementation surely required multiple testing cycles, it sounds like the code determines it is being tested by a combination of vehicles speeds, steering wheel position and wheel motion.

Basically, The exec sad they have no idea if a programmer put random kill switches in their ECM.

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