ot; trayvon martin

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Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 16, 2013 - 7:07am

guns. self-defense. 2nd am. neighborhood watch, guns make us safer, racial profiling.

I think I could sum up the piggingtonian positions, but not sure on this case...

and etc...

as michael moore said, "if trayvon martin had been white and george zimmerman had been black--do I even need to finish that sentence?"

Submitted by livinincali on July 25, 2013 - 12:17pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

Think of it in terms of workers' rights. The slaves did work and were not paid. Money is due. The heirs have a claim to that.

This is one of the reasons why we have statue of limitations for many types of crime. Both sides of the slavery equation are long gone. The heirs have claims against parties that longer are alive. Do you want to be held responsible for your parent's debt when they pass away? It's time for personal responsibility to make a come back in this nation.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 25, 2013 - 12:49pm.

Very valid point , livIn

I wasn''t arguing that repartions should happen or are practical.
But reparations are a very convincing philosophical and legal argument.

In the end, we decide what we want to do based on the resources we have.

I don't want to and won't pay if my parents die in debt. Society pays. There are no statutes of limitations to the ills of society. Courts won't adjudicate but congress can do something. And if congress does nothing? Too bad.

I like those academic subjects because they make me think beyond daily life. Some of us may scoff at academics. But remember the founding founders were the liberal elites of their day.

Beyond the polemics, immediate reparations to blacks would be great economic stimulus, haha

Submitted by livinincali on July 25, 2013 - 1:21pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

Beyond the polemics, immediate reparations to blacks would be great economic stimulus, haha

That would depend on where you get the money from. Everything is a balance sheet so in order to give reparations you'd have to take that money from some other group. The question becomes is that other group investing in something more productive or less productive.

Here's an example. Suppose you would get the money to pay the reparations via removing tax credits for Electric Vehicles. So Tesla would be forced to invest less in production of Tesla cars and fewer manufacturing jobs would be created at Tesla. Suppose then that the people that receive the money go out and buy cheap junk made in China at Walmart. Is that a net economic stimulus for the economy here in the United States. I can make a reasonable argument that that would be a negative for economic progress in the US and a net benefit to China. Is that what we want?

That's been the problem all along for Bernanke's stimulus efforts. He can make it cheap to borrow but he can't make people do productive things with the borrowed money. Almost everybody here would probably borrow $500K at 2% interest if they could but how many would actually do something with the money that produced jobs or economic activity. Most would probably try to grow it in the stock market or buy and rent real estate. How many would put in the hard work to start up a new company and create jobs. At the same time if it cost 10% interest to borrow $500K then people that did choose to borrow would likely be forced to do something innovative and productive with the money. There would be no other way to earn a return otherwise.

When interest rates get really low people borrow to do easy things like speculate in asset prices. Of course that leads to bubbles which eventually blow up.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 25, 2013 - 4:50pm.

Livin, what you describe is holdover economics from the gold standard and fixed exchange rates.

Actually, if there is slack in the economy, more cash in the form of transfer payments is stimulative and not inflationary.

The government doesn't need to take the money from any group. It prints it. The federal government is not constrained like states and households because it issues the currency.

It's like issuing more shares. You just dilute the exciting shareholders and that's where the polemics and jealousies come in. But if you grow the company, all the shareholders will benefit.

The problem with monetary policy is that the Federal reserve needs to work though the financial system. Cash cannot be directly given to those who will spend it.

Bernanke said told congress that we need stimulative fiscal policies. But in a deadlocked congress that can't happen. And that's too bad because we are artificially constraining growth.

Submitted by CA renter on July 25, 2013 - 5:03pm.

FIH, "printed money" does indeed take away from others -- the ones who held money before the printing started. You're taking away their purchasing power which is the same as taking away their money.

Submitted by CA renter on July 25, 2013 - 5:06pm.

livinincali wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:

Beyond the polemics, immediate reparations to blacks would be great economic stimulus, haha

That would depend on where you get the money from. Everything is a balance sheet so in order to give reparations you'd have to take that money from some other group. The question becomes is that other group investing in something more productive or less productive.

Here's an example. Suppose you would get the money to pay the reparations via removing tax credits for Electric Vehicles. So Tesla would be forced to invest less in production of Tesla cars and fewer manufacturing jobs would be created at Tesla. Suppose then that the people that receive the money go out and buy cheap junk made in China at Walmart. Is that a net economic stimulus for the economy here in the United States. I can make a reasonable argument that that would be a negative for economic progress in the US and a net benefit to China. Is that what we want?

That's been the problem all along for Bernanke's stimulus efforts. He can make it cheap to borrow but he can't make people do productive things with the borrowed money. Almost everybody here would probably borrow $500K at 2% interest if they could but how many would actually do something with the money that produced jobs or economic activity. Most would probably try to grow it in the stock market or buy and rent real estate. How many would put in the hard work to start up a new company and create jobs. At the same time if it cost 10% interest to borrow $500K then people that did choose to borrow would likely be forced to do something innovative and productive with the money. There would be no other way to earn a return otherwise.

When interest rates get really low people borrow to do easy things like speculate in asset prices. Of course that leads to bubbles which eventually blow up.

Great post, livin.

The bolded part is something that far too many people do not get. All "investments" are not equal, which is why I define real "investing" as increasing productive capacity and/or improving existing methods of production and/or the quality of goods sold. Betting on asset price increases/decreases is NOT productive investment.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 26, 2013 - 6:16am.

maybe just make george bush, slave labor beneficiary, pay and split it among someone who can show direct harm.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/histo...

native americans get casino shares of differing amts depending on percentage

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 8, 2013 - 9:25pm.

Warning this is disturbing to watch. I guess it really is not of any importance though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjOnygvEYrE

Submitted by CDMA ENG on August 8, 2013 - 10:01pm.

SD Realtor wrote:
Warning this is disturbing to watch. I guess it really is not of any importance though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjOnygvEYrE

Eh... I have recieved worse that than...

Pretty common these days...

CE

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 8, 2013 - 10:06pm.

yes it is.

I guess it is a non issue. I wonder if it would have been had it been 3 whites beating a black.

Probably no different.

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 12, 2013 - 10:22am.

Maybe if this guy dies, Eric Holder and the Feds will look into it.

Probably not.

I guess stuff like this is pretty common. You know, getting beat until you are in a coma and unresponsive. The guy probably deserved it anyway.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/he-thought-he...

Submitted by CardiffBaseball on August 12, 2013 - 1:25pm.

Stuff is happening more and more.

The key is if you are in a place with a bunch of teen males you should be automatically suspicious. If I see four white kids on the walking trail by my house, I am watching them closely until we pass, and after. I mean I am polite, and all, say "hey guys, what's up" it's just that I am looking the group over to make sure they seem ok. It's just how I roll right or wrong...

Similarly if there is a group of black teen males you should be even more suspicious because the rate of violent crimes amongst that demographic group is an order of magnitude higher.. You should have a sixth sense not to go walking into crowds like this. Not saying this guy deserved it at all. Just saying I would probably not walk into a big group like that.

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 12, 2013 - 2:07pm.

Look it is kind of the white elephant in the room. (so to speak)

There is racism in this country. It is ugly, it is bad, and I really wish there was a cure for it. The country has a very very ugly history with slavery.

We had lots and lots of responses to this thread when discussing Trayvon the victim. What happened to him was another sad commentary on the country. I personally cannot feel the same as black people who have experienced racism. I do kno I have experienced anti-Semitism and do almost daily. It is a bad feeling man.

What is most discomforting is that it is almost taboo to talk about whites getting beaten by blacks. I am sure I have already been labelled a racist for doing so. For wondering aloud why this is not addressed by the administration, or by Holder. For wondering why activists like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson turn a blind eye to this. yet Trayvon Martin brought out plenty of formal responses, investigations, etc.

Your response Cardiff is a decent response. Yes take care of yourself, avoid conflict, be aware. Great that works however that doesn't address the problem. In fact this more of what we have been doing. Turn a blind eye and don't talk about it.

Yet if a group of whites beat the hell out of a black kid and put him in a coma how big of a media circus would we have?

Now did that happen? Hell yes it happened regularly in the past. How friggin ugly is that? What a piss poor statement that is about white USA in the past. Plenty of that racial history exists today in what America, it is sad. However that same hatred exists, and boils over regularly in black America as well against whites. It pops up in a story or two in the press but it is summarily ignored by the administration. Why? Is the administration racist? No I don't think that for a minute. Is it because the administration feels it has a responsibility to black America to respond? Perhaps I don't really know.

It just is unsettling. To even discuss it rationally portrays me in a bad light however I have no clue how to even bring it up to get people to talk about it.

Submitted by CardiffBaseball on August 12, 2013 - 7:08pm.

I think we can all agree with each passing generation there is less and less blatant racism, today's kids are far more likely to cross-marry amongst different races, more of them grew up together hanging out etc.

Yet, being at basically ground zero here, of the event, I found myself dumbfounded listening to the black marchers. I mean I really truly just cannot empathize with many of them. When I see a 300+ lb. woman screaming bloody murder at the top of her lungs about "dey huntin' our kids, dey huntin' our kids". I just can't even have a discussion with her, because I happen to think she's a f-in moron to think that. How can I possibly begin to have a dialogue with this person, when I have no respect for their point of view, which statistically speaking is absolutely silly.

Another area that I find to show I am lacking empathy, is my general indignation towards those who blew this story up. First the story came down that it was some crazy-ass giant cracker hunting down an teeny angel who was off buying candy. Then we find they doctored the photos to "whiten" GZ up. The we find out the so-called racist stuff he said on the 911 call was doctored by MSNBC. Then we find out Trayvon was actually kicking the shit out of the little chubby brown guy errrrrr...."white hispanic". and I am not even getting into what items he purchased, the fact that Trayvon wanted to get a little buzz on doesn't bother me.

In any case my white guilt meter is tapped out at this point and along comes the trial. Any decent defense lawyer wins that case easily, anyone with a two-bit knowledge of law knows it. Yet, despite all that, did Sharpton ever once acknowledge any of the above that might have led to not guilty? (Or Jesse). Not at all, not once. They continue to speak in tones designed to enrage people.

What dialogue can we possibly have?

Submitted by CA renter on August 13, 2013 - 12:29am.

Another series of events that has been intentionally kept out of the mainstream news is the mob action that has allegedly been going on for quite a few years now, mostly in Chicago, from what I understand.

Note how they don't mention the race(s) of either the suspects or the victims, but in the videos, it's pretty clear what the suspects looked like. Still not sure what the victims looked like, but you can be sure that it would not be called a "hate crime" even if the victims were white. What's wrong with this picture?

Clearly, this is WAAAAY worse that what Zimmerman did to Trayvon Martin because these victims in the mob action were totally innocent, and the suspects were truly looking to victimize people...it was even planned in advance on social media.

Jackson and Sharpton are nowhere to be found, of course. Like I've said in an earlier post, if we honestly want to eliminate racism, the only ones who can make this happen are those within the black community. There must be leadership, and while I do believe some are trying, there is no critical mass.

----------

"Things started turn bad around 6:00 p.m. Saturday, with teens purposely bumping into people, and causing fights among themselves.

Fifteen juveniles and two adults were arrested and charged with misdemeanor reckless conduct in connection with the incidents on Michigan Avenue.

Community activist Andrew Holmes witnessed some of the problems, while shopping with his family.

You had a group of teens, close to maybe 500. They assaulted a Chicago police officer that was mounted on a horse and all of a sudden they assaulted a citizen walking the streets, just a normal citizen shopping and enjoying the weather,” said Holmes."

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/03/30/b...

Submitted by CA renter on August 13, 2013 - 12:47am.

More:

"Organized "bash mob" crime rampages of roving groups attacking innocent people and businesses have been striking cities around the United States. Law enforcement agencies in Southern California have reported few similar problems -- until now.

In the last several days, there have been several reports of such group crime waves in South L.A., Hollywood, San Bernardino and Victorville. Long Beach police are bracing for another one Friday.

These so-called bash mobs of "flash mob" crime waves are organized through social media and have been a problem in Chicago, Philadelphia and Washington. In April, 28 Chicago youths were arrested on suspicion of attacking pedestrians along the city's famed Magnificent Mile. Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn signed legislation in May enacting stiffer penalties for people who text or use social media to organize mob attacks."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...

----------

Note how the media has been specifically instructed to not mention race.

Submitted by CardiffBaseball on August 13, 2013 - 7:26am.

At the risk of sounding childish, the media not mentioning race is kind of ....childish.

I mean how long does it take a kid to learn? "dad, why didn't they ever say the color of these kids who beat that guy into a coma". Me: "Son you just don't fucking get it do you.... Don't ever ask me that question again".

Ha. No I said kid, it's been that way for a long time. I don't know why it is, and why we can't tell it like it is, but that's how it is.

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 20, 2013 - 12:21pm.

We are bored. Let's go out and shoot somebody.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/three-t...

Baseball player from Australia visiting here to play ball gets to leave in a coffin. He was out jogging. Probably deserved it. Luckily the police said it wasn't racially motivated. I feel better now.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on August 20, 2013 - 1:18pm.

Not sure what the point is. The perpetrators will go to jail.

Zimmerman is going free for a killing that he could easily have avoided. Big difference.

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 20, 2013 - 1:45pm.

Your right there is a big difference.

A young white man was shot in the back while he was jogging by 3 black teens.

No comment from the president. No comment from Eric Holder. No rallies and no riots. No comment from Al Sharpton. No comments from the media.

Two lives lost.

Two very different reactions.

To me that is very sad. I guess not so much to you.

Submitted by all on August 20, 2013 - 1:49pm.

One of the teens looks like a white African American.

Submitted by SD Realtor on August 20, 2013 - 1:51pm.

You are correct all. The third kid who was with them is white. He is being charged as an accessory to murder.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on August 20, 2013 - 2:49pm.

Sad is not the point. I don't see the moral equivalence.

People will comment on the issues that are important to them. Some events will take on more importance than others, and each case is different.

Al Sharpton will lobby on behalf of blacks, just like CEOs lobby on behalf of businesses. They each have their own roles.

The president will comment on issues of his choosing and issues that reach a level of national importance. All presidents have commented on race relations which is a sensitive issue in our history.

Some things take on more notoriety than other things. It's just the way it goes. The press will report on a celebrity death before another "more sad" death.

In my opinion, this latest killing is an issue of the gun culture in America and people shooting just because they can.

Submitted by mike92104 on August 20, 2013 - 8:20pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
Not sure what the point is. The perpetrators will go to jail.

Zimmerman is going free for a killing that he could easily have avoided. Big difference.

Trayvon could have avoided being killed by not attacking Zimmerman.

Submitted by NotCranky on August 20, 2013 - 9:05pm.

The kids killing that Aussie show how embedded in our culture, and perhaps what a priority violence is, more than anything. Guns are just the cherry on top.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on August 21, 2013 - 12:38pm.

Blogstar, yeah it's the culture of violence we have here. Guns are not incidental but integral part of that culture.

Some people here imply that the Aussie killing is reverse racism on the part of blacks. But If you read the foreign press you see how we have a reputation for trigger happy violence.. People are talking about avoiding travel to USA. Not good for our inbound travel and tourism sector.

Submitted by livinincali on August 21, 2013 - 1:51pm.

So the suspects are 15, 16, and 17. Good thing Oklahoma's laws preventing minors from purchasing and possessing firearms worked. Criminals don't care about your background checks, assault rifle bans, or other laws. They've already decided to commit the ultimate crime.

http://smartgunlaws.org/minimum-age-to-p...

Submitted by livinincali on August 22, 2013 - 6:37am.

The Oklahoma case just keeps getting better. I can't wait to see excuses from the race baiters on this one.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/...

Submitted by all on August 22, 2013 - 10:05am.

livinincali wrote:
So the suspects are 15, 16, and 17. Good thing Oklahoma's laws preventing minors from purchasing and possessing firearms worked. Criminals don't care about your background checks, assault rifle bans, or other laws. They've already decided to commit the ultimate crime.

http://smartgunlaws.org/minimum-age-to-purchase-possess-firearms-in-oklahoma/

The flip side is that ease of access to guns did not help the murdered guy.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on August 22, 2013 - 12:15pm.

livinincali wrote:
The Oklahoma case just keeps getting better. I can't wait to see excuses from the race baiters on this one.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/21/hate-them-heres-what-teen-accused-of-murdering-australian-student-had-to-say-about-white-people-guns-and-killing-on-twitter/

This post sounds like race baiting to me.

I don't think blacks who make derogatory comments about whites are racist.

To me. racism implies some kind of moral superiority.

Things don't have much meaning without context.

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