ot; trayvon martin

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Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 16, 2013 - 7:07am

guns. self-defense. 2nd am. neighborhood watch, guns make us safer, racial profiling.

I think I could sum up the piggingtonian positions, but not sure on this case...

and etc...

as michael moore said, "if trayvon martin had been white and george zimmerman had been black--do I even need to finish that sentence?"

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 9:49am.

In 1988, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which had been sponsored by Representative Norman Mineta and Senator Alan K. Simpson – the two had met while Mineta was interned at a camp in Wyoming – which provided redress of $20,000 for each surviving detainee, totaling $1.2 billion. The question of to whom reparations should be given, how much, and even whether monetary reparations were appropriate were subjects of sometimes contentious debate.[98]

On September 27, 1992, the Civil Liberties Act Amendments of 1992, appropriating an additional $400 million to ensure all remaining internees received their $20,000 redress payments, was signed into law by President George H. W. Bush, who also issued another formal apology from the U.S. government on December 7, 1991, on the very day of the 50th-Anniversary of the Pearl Harbor Attack:

"In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces of its past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our history. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great injustice, and it will never be repeated."

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 9:58am.

Was not slavery and the years subsequent a far greater disgrace than internment during wartime?

Have we as a nation ever done anything to redress the wrong?

Affirmative action, I guess...not much of an apology.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 10:21am.

Perhaps black leadership should haveen fighting harder for damages...proofs a lot harder than in the Japanese case though...they waited too long for litigation...

Jews got reparations from Germany post WWII ...

Imagine how the issue would've been seen by the USA back close in time to emancipation.

I can imagine being part of an underclass and not wanting to be a part of the system due to past injustices.

How can we justify paying money damages to the Japanese but not to blacks?

I remember arguments existed on both sides...

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 24, 2013 - 10:35am.

squat300 wrote:
Was not slavery and the years subsequent a far greater disgrace than internment during wartime?

Have we as a nation ever done anything to redress the wrong?

Affirmative action, I guess...not much of an apology.

Scaredy: The issue is complicated by a couple key facts. The Union forces were fighting against slavery (among other issues), and over 300,000 Union soldiers died in the American Civil War. The Confederate States of America were economically devastated by the war.

So, how does one assess reparations? Who pays? Does the US Government pay? The same government that expended huge amounts of blood (the Civil War remains the bloodiest in American history, with casualties exceeding ALL other wars combined) and treasure restoring the Union?

Do you levy the Southern states that comprised the Confederacy? Who gets paid (how does one assess the validity of a claim)? On this last one, the recent Pigford fiasco is instructive. If you haven't heard about this debacle, it's worth your time to read up on it. The road to hell and good intentions and all.

Submitted by livinincali on July 24, 2013 - 10:41am.

squat300 wrote:
appropriating an additional $400 million to ensure all remaining internees received their $20,000 redress payments,

This is the key right here. None of the members of the current black community suffered from slavery. Why should we think that current Americans who weren't responsible slavery should pay repercussions to people that weren't victims of slavery. Even if you did decide to do that, do you really think that solves problems in the black community. Food stamps, section 8, and other forms welfare don't seem to be solving the problem why would checks for $20K help?

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 10:44am.

Reparations, like apologies, are about far more than money.

All the issues you raise are good ones though...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 10:48am.

Basically the time for reparations is when the injury is fresh...

Yet the injury continues.

Impossible to prove causation tho...

I'd suspect the black community still suffers in some unprovable way the effects of slavery...

If not.. Around what year would you say it stopped?

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 10:57am.

Why should Americans who weren't even alive during WWII pay money to Asians for an imprisonment that happened 40 years earlier?

How does 20k help?

If you were a black teen living in a crappy project in a single parent family in a drug infested neighborhood with crappy schools and lots of people you know we're in and out of prison, would it seem completely unreasonable that slavery was in some small part a bit responsible for the current plight of your community even if you couldn't prove it?

If so wouldn't you think it unfair to pay off the Asians and apologize for the injustice and ignore you?

Maybe. I might.

Food stamps aren't "reparations".

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 11:09am.

I think the damages from slavery so dwarf the Japanese damages that they are essentially unpayable.

If Barack Had said

"In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces of its past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our history. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great injustice, and it will never be repeated."

Instead of bush, America woulda flipped out.

Why?

Because we did bad by black people and never made amends...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 11:15am.

I think the best hope for the future is very high rates of intermarriage and a lessening if past connection to historical identity.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 24, 2013 - 11:18am.

Scaredy: No, not completely unreasonable. But what other things contributed to that situation you reference?

And, your argument presupposes that the $20k check gets spent wisely.

A good friend of mine does scouting/recruiting for a Big Ten school. He has told me, repeatedly, about visiting homes all over the country, where people live in fairly abject circumstances, but there's a plasma big screen TV, a nice ride outside and the kids are sporting iPhones and expensive kicks.

Problem is more thorny than any of us imagine and my concern would be reparations simply becomes another gubment handout.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 24, 2013 - 11:22am.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
The deployment of race-positive social programs institutionalized the underclass and created a series of perverse incentives, not least of which was the common practice of having ever more children because the state essentially "paid" you to do so.

Welfare is not race positive but income and asset based.

I don't think that welfare paid women to have kids. But it make made is less painful to be reproductively responsible.

You can't expect teenagers and 20 somethings in destitute situations to be sexually responsible. All they have to do is screw like rabbits. And young girls look for love when there's nothing else. For young uneducated men, scoring girls is the thing to do. Witness the military despite the edicts from commanders.

But welfare is much better now that fathers are pursued for payments.

We could have avoided a lot of pain by having aggressive, proactive sex education, pills and condoms available for free at school. Science shows that it works.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 11:33am.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
Scaredy: No, not completely unreasonable. But what other things contributed to that situation you reference?

And, your argument presupposes that the $20k check gets spent wisely.

A good friend of mine does scouting/recruiting for a Big Ten school. He has told me, repeatedly, about visiting homes all over the country, where people live in fairly abject circumstances, but there's a plasma big screen TV, a nice ride outside and the kids are sporting iPhones and expensive kicks.

Problem is more thorny than any of us imagine and my concern would be reparations simply becomes another gubment handout.

True. Native american casino checks are often reportedly consumed in unwise ways. Sometimes those checks seem like very indirect and weird reparations.

Doesn't mean reparations aren't due. The nazis probly owed the Jews some cash, even if the Jews were gonna blow it all on some high quality coke to ease the pain.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 24, 2013 - 11:46am.

squat300 wrote:
I think the best hope for the future is very high rates of intermarriage and a lessening if past connection to historical identity.

I agree. And the offsprings are more beautiful also.

Right now, the push back is that whites, especially non-college educated white men, feel under assault from all fronts. The historical "superiority" was their identity but they have nothing to offer anymore. They are especially afraid of blacks because black genes are dominant and black masculinity is superior.

I read the 15% of marriages are interracial now.

There's a big psychological element to racism. But few people want to self-examine.

Obama represents the new world. Despite some people claiming that's he the same as Bush, Obama means a changing of political establishment to a younger more diverse crowd. That shift has already happened in popular culture, celebrities and athletics.

The world evolves. You're happier when you embrace the changes.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 11:49am.

If we just passed a law prohibiting white people from having children with other white people, problem could be solved in one generation.

Might be legal challenges tho.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 12:00pm.

I recAll a schoolyard chant from the 70s:

A fight a fight a ni--er on a white!

And I remember seeing many macho young Italian dudes messing with black kids bussed in to our neighborhood and that chant...

Just kinda came back to me...nobody shot each other. Now it probably would end that way... Don't recall lots of interracial reaching out...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 12:09pm.

Key and peele slave auction comedy video:

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB7MichlL...

Very very funny and maybe indicative of a better comedic future?

They also have a video on a black substitute teacher mispronouncing names in a lily white class that is both hilarious and socially intriguing.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 24, 2013 - 12:13pm.

Not that maybe blacks in Hawaii. But intermarriage is taken for granted.
People are relax and have the aloha spirit.

Submitted by livinincali on July 24, 2013 - 12:26pm.

squat300 wrote:
If we just passed a law prohibiting white people from having children with other white people, problem could be solved in one generation.

Might be legal challenges tho.

That's thinking way too small. Let's just genetically modify all children so that they are smart, beautiful, and relatively homogeneous. Then we won't have to worry about race, poverty, and everything else that is unfair about the world. Sounds like a Marxist Utopia.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 12:30pm.

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB7MichlL...

Black sub in white school; seems like someone could write a phd on this stuff!

Also hilarious....

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 1:40pm.

livinincali wrote:
squat300 wrote:
If we just passed a law prohibiting white people from having children with other white people, problem could be solved in one generation.

Might be legal challenges tho.

That's thinking way too small. Let's just genetically modify all children so that they are smart, beautiful, and relatively homogeneous. Then we won't have to worry about race, poverty, and everything else that is unfair about the world. Sounds like a Marxist Utopia.

I wish I had better genes. I kind of suck.

Having trouble getting to 300lb squat.

Got stuck and didn't push thru 250.

But I am doing pull ups nicely w/ 52.5 pounds on a dip belt. Want to be able to do one pull up w my youngest kid holding on to me , about 90 lbs. very close, almost got one rep last week. If I can get that and just keep it going while he gets heavier, well then, hmmm... That would be good. Not a 300 lb squat but still.., good. Goals change. Maybe 300 lb squat next year. I'm not ready.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 24, 2013 - 2:15pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
The deployment of race-positive social programs institutionalized the underclass and created a series of perverse incentives, not least of which was the common practice of having ever more children because the state essentially "paid" you to do so.

Welfare is not race positive but income and asset based.

I don't think that welfare paid women to have kids. But it make made is less painful to be reproductively responsible.

You can't expect teenagers and 20 somethings in destitute situations to be sexually responsible. All they have to do is screw like rabbits. And young girls look for love when there's nothing else. For young uneducated men, scoring girls is the thing to do. Witness the military despite the edicts from commanders.

But welfare is much better now that fathers are pursued for payments.

We could have avoided a lot of pain by having aggressive, proactive sex education, pills and condoms available for free at school. Science shows that it works.

FIH: I think you misunderstand the meaning of "race-positive" versus "race neutral" government social policies. The late Daniel Patrick Moynihan argued the difference far more eloquently than I ever could, and I refer you to his writings on this, along with his very prescient forecast about the outcome and future of the black family and community.

Yes, welfare (in its previous iteration) was race-positive. Yes, it did, in essence, pay for procreation. There is extensive reporting on this, the same reports serving as the underpinnings for welfare reform.

As I said earlier, I believe Sex Ed is an excellent idea. But, to gain traction, you are going to have to attack an element of Black culture that lionizes violence, misogyny and the exploitation of women. Good luck with that and I'm not saying that sarcastically. As Steele points out, Blacks are part of a "protected" class and to speak out about the obvious issues is to run the risk of being labeled a racist.

Submitted by all on July 24, 2013 - 3:54pm.

You don't like 50 cent and Jay-Z?

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 24, 2013 - 7:55pm.

all wrote:
You don't like 50 cent and Jay-Z?

All: I liked Jay Z back when he was slinging rock and before he married that talentless hack, Beyonce. You do know he's officially dropped the hyphen between the Jay and the Z, right? That rap shit's no fun when you corporatize it, monetize it and take it all up-market and shit.

Gotta keep it real, baby! Fitty and Jay Z are cheap corporate whores, just like Bieber and Lady Gaga, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 24, 2013 - 9:39pm.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:

As I said earlier, I believe Sex Ed is an excellent idea. But, to gain traction, you are going to have to attack an element of Black culture that lionizes violence, misogyny and the exploitation of women. Good luck with that and I'm not saying that sarcastically. As Steele points out, Blacks are part of a "protected" class and to speak out about the obvious issues is to run the risk of being labeled a racist.

We don't meet anything of the sort. Just overcome the groups who put feelings before facts and science and oppose contraception and family planning.

Get the funding (which would be minimal compared to welfare) and make the teachers teach sex ed and hand out condoms and the pill at nurses' offices.

Forget about the boys. Just tell the girls that if they have sex, they need to be careful of VD and be on the pill and make the guys wear condoms.

I betcha we will cut welfare and crime over a generation. Pretty simple.

The term racist is relative. By today's standards, Obama's white grandparents would likely be racist. But they had a hippie daughter who wanted to marry a black guy. So they had no choice but to change and adapt. And I'm sure that, over time, the grandparents were pretty proud as Obama became successful.

When Obama was born there was lots of racism in Hawaii. But lately young people are proud of their multiculturalism. It has a cool factor now. We have to shape the minds of children by using the right language and sending the right messages.

The world changes. We have to adapt. Even the British monarchy had to change the language it uses to fit modern times.

Submitted by CA renter on July 24, 2013 - 10:30pm.

squat300 wrote:
Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
Scaredy: No, not completely unreasonable. But what other things contributed to that situation you reference?

And, your argument presupposes that the $20k check gets spent wisely.

A good friend of mine does scouting/recruiting for a Big Ten school. He has told me, repeatedly, about visiting homes all over the country, where people live in fairly abject circumstances, but there's a plasma big screen TV, a nice ride outside and the kids are sporting iPhones and expensive kicks.

Problem is more thorny than any of us imagine and my concern would be reparations simply becomes another gubment handout.

True. Native american casino checks are often reportedly consumed in unwise ways. Sometimes those checks seem like very indirect and weird reparations.

Doesn't mean reparations aren't due. The nazis probly owed the Jews some cash, even if the Jews were gonna blow it all on some high quality coke to ease the pain.

Don't forget women. If there's any one group that is still discriminated against -- and people hardly notice it -- it's women. They've been owned, used, and abused for at least as long as African slaves. They weren't able to vote, control their own earnings, or own property if they were married...even well into the 20th century in many places! It was legal (and expected!) to beat them if they didn't obey their male masters/husbands. They still earn less than men for similar work, and they still represent the largest group living in poverty.

Exactly where do reparations and apologies stop, and personal responsibility start? There are many groups throughout history that have been subjugated by other groups. Do we owe all of them reparations and apologies?

Submitted by CA renter on July 25, 2013 - 12:06am.

FlyerInHi wrote:

We don't meet anything of the sort. Just overcome the groups who put feelings before facts and science and oppose contraception and family planning.

Get the funding (which would be minimal compared to welfare) and make the teachers teach sex ed and hand out condoms and the pill at nurses' offices.

Forget about the boys. Just tell the girls that if they have sex, they need to be careful of VD and be on the pill and make the guys wear condoms.

I betcha we will cut welfare and crime over a generation. Pretty simple.

The term racist is relative. By today's standards, Obama's white grandparents would likely be racist. But they had a hippie daughter who wanted to marry a black guy. So they had no choice but to change and adapt. And I'm sure that, over time, the grandparents were pretty proud as Obama became successful.

When Obama was born there was lots of racism in Hawaii. But lately young people are proud of their multiculturalism. It has a cool factor now. We have to shape the minds of children by using the right language and sending the right messages.

The world changes. We have to adapt. Even the British monarchy had to change the language it uses to fit modern times.

Another example of sexism: It's the woman's fault if she gets pregnant, and only women can be "welfare queens." What about the men? Why do you think they should get a free pass on this? Why should women be responsible for making sure that males get to have consequence-free sex? It takes two to make a baby, and two people need to take responsibility for whatever happens as a result of having sex.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 25, 2013 - 12:59am.

CAr, I said nothing of the sort.

Of course, if a baby is born the father should pay to raise the child

But give the power to women to control their own bodies. And teach the girls to do that as soon as they approach puberty. Not God, not men, but only women should decide when to have babies. They need easy access to virtually free contraception tools.

Women of today don't deserve reparations for past wrongs because they are descendants of both men (who benefited) and women (who were exploited). Blacks do. And in case of inter-racial marriages an apportionment could be made.

Submitted by CA renter on July 25, 2013 - 2:02am.

Sorry, FIH, but it's rather amusing to think that's the best argument against reparations for women. Shouldn't we get at least 50% reparations, since half of our ancestors were female? But wait...half of your ancestors were female, too! ;)

As for African-Americans, should we dole out the reparations based on their percentage of black ancestry?...

"Exactly How "Black" Are Black Americans?

* According to Ancestry.com, the average African American is 65 percent sub-Saharan African, 29 percent European and 2 percent Native American.

* According to 23andme.com, the average African American is 75 percent sub-Saharan African, 22 percent European and only 0.6 percent Native American.

* According to Family Tree DNA.com, the average African American is 72.95 percent sub-Saharan African, 22.83 percent European and 1.7 percent Native American.

* According to National Geographic's Genographic Project, the average African American is 80 percent sub-Saharan African, 19 percent European and 1 percent Native American."

http://www.theroot.com/views/exactly-how...

---------------

Again, lots of groups have been subjugated throughout history. We need to make sure that everyone has equal opportunities, and I can even understand giving certain groups some extra educational assistance or counseling on the best ways to get ahead (because many people from poorer backgrounds lack a mentor to give them good advice and/or funds to achieve realistic goals), but we should not coddle those who refuse to do anything to better themselves.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 25, 2013 - 10:26am.

CAr, you made the same argument Allan made. How the recipients of compensation use the money is irrelevant.

Think of it in terms of workers' rights. The slaves did work and were not paid. Money is due. The heirs have a claim to that.

As with Germany and the Jews, an imperfect formula can be developed.
People who can document their injuries and losses will get more. Thes others get a set amount.

I'm not saying that reparations will happen. But they undoubtedly are owed.

As with pensions, whether you are owed something doesn't mean you will get it until you get it, and only if there is money to pay it.

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