ot; trayvon martin

User Forum Topic
Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 16, 2013 - 7:07am

guns. self-defense. 2nd am. neighborhood watch, guns make us safer, racial profiling.

I think I could sum up the piggingtonian positions, but not sure on this case...

and etc...

as michael moore said, "if trayvon martin had been white and george zimmerman had been black--do I even need to finish that sentence?"

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 21, 2013 - 11:16am.

Criminal juries. Right. Civil ones just figure out what probably happened.

In either case they're not particularly designed to find the truth.

In criminal cases its definitely not (or at least shouldnt be) about deciding what really happened, since it is often unknowable.

Submitted by ctr70 on July 21, 2013 - 2:57pm.

All I know is the jury sat in that courtroom for weeks and heard every bit of evidence in person, looked the defendant in the eyes for weeks, and scrutinized every bit of evidence with excruciating detail. No one posting on this message board or Obama did that. And based on what they had they found GZ not guilty. Everything else is pure speculation and guess work.

Submitted by ctr70 on July 21, 2013 - 3:54pm.

Also, in terms of racial profiling...90% of black homicides in this county come at the hands of other blacks. Is that due to racial profiling?

Blacks are 13% of the U.S. population and commit a disproportionate amount crimes such as robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes. Is that due to racial profiling? Is the elevated high school dropout rate for blacks due to racial profiling? Is the fact that 75% black households growing up without their fathers due to racial profiling?

My point is that racial profiling is a bad, bad thing, but it's not really the main issue at all.

Everybody wants to see the black community make great strides and improvements. And obviously racial profiling happens in society and it is a horrible, horrible demeaning thing to happen to a person. But my point is people like Al Sharpton and the mainstream media seem come out of the woodwork and go nuts about something like this when they are nowhere to be seen with the bigger issues. Why isn't Al Sharpton doing demonstrations and getting black celebrities out in force regarding the thousands of black on black murders? The George Zimmermans of the world are not the issue in the black community! Non blacks murdering blacks because of racial profiling is a TINY PERCENTAGE. A rounding error. This stuff gets every one off focus of the real issues and then the REAL problems never get addressed.

I also really tire of the liberal far left political correctness on racial issues (and for the record I am liberal on most social issues and fiscally conservative). I think liberals can be some of the worst racists of all, being racists of low expectations of a person ability to think for themselves & pull themselves up. The whole "victim " mentality crap. They never want to hurt anyone's feelings or step on anyone's toes, so they perpetuate mis-truths just to be politically correct, and therefore progress is never made because the truth is never told. They fail to put much of the blame on the *personal responsibility* of the black community and continue to perpetuate the myth that "white racism" is to blame for everything. They fail to tell the truth that much of someones situation in life comes from the *personal decisions* they make and the *personal actions* they take. And no amount of Government funding is going to solve that. If you commit a crime that is a *personal decision* you make on your own, and you own that decision, that is NOBODY ELSES FAULT!

When you blame everything on "white racism", it takes away the other parties personal responsibility and personal accountability. Any failure in your life you can just easily blame on white racism. "I committed this crime and abandoned my kids because of white racism". "I'm in this situation in life because of white racism." Of course none of it had anything at all to do with my personal decisions in life or own self discipline.

I really like what Bill Cosby has to say on the status of Black America and what needs to be done to improve it. He has been one of the most interesting voices on this topic IMO. He is big on personal responsibility and accountability, and not the whole bleeding heart liberal denial game. And it's not stuff Al Sharpton would likely agree with, at least publicly.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 21, 2013 - 8:29pm.

Ctr: Wow. Amazing post and good on you for having the balls to post it.

I made some of the same points to a liberal friend and she airily dismissed it as being factually incorrect (it wasn't) and then saying I should be careful about such comments, lest I be perceived as a racist.

And that's how the game is played. No facts, please, and, if you bring facts, well, you must be a racist.

I want to retch every time I see the Good Reverend Sharpton. I wonder why none of his colleagues on MSNBC every bring up Tawana Brawley or Crown Heights. Then I remember: It's a game. If you don't play along and mouth the appropriate slogans with the appropriate fervor, then you run the real risk of the "R word" being appended to you. Like the scarlet letter.

Submitted by NotCranky on July 21, 2013 - 9:35pm.

No need to get all esoteric on us, Scaredy, the defendant did nothing wrong.

"I never heard tell that it was against the law for a citizen to do his utmost to prevent a crime from being committed, which is exactly what he did."

-"to Kill a Mocking Bird"

Submitted by mike92104 on July 21, 2013 - 9:12pm.

ctr70 wrote:
Also, in terms of racial profiling...90% of black homicides in this county come at the hands of other blacks. Is that due to racial profiling?

Blacks are 13% of the U.S. population and commit a disproportionate amount crimes such as robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes. Is that due to racial profiling? Is the elevated high school dropout rate for blacks due to racial profiling? Is the fact that 75% black households growing up without their fathers due to racial profiling?

This unfortunately is all due to poverty in my opinion. Something all this racial PC BS does nothing for.

Submitted by paramount on July 21, 2013 - 11:44pm.

To an extent I saw this case as someone protecting their property (collective and/or personal).

Submitted by outtamojo on July 22, 2013 - 12:09am.

ctr70 wrote:
All I know is the jury sat in that courtroom for weeks and heard every bit of evidence in person, looked the defendant in the eyes for weeks, and scrutinized every bit of evidence with excruciating detail. No one posting on this message board or Obama did that. And based on what they had they found GZ not guilty. Everything else is pure speculation and guess work.

Nobody has ever been wrongly convicted, in general?

Submitted by outtamojo on July 21, 2013 - 11:57pm.

ctr70 wrote:
Also, in terms of racial profiling...90% of black homicides in this county come at the hands of other blacks. Is that due to racial profiling?

Blacks are 13% of the U.S. population and commit a disproportionate amount crimes such as robbery, aggravated assault and property crimes. Is that due to racial profiling? Is the elevated high school dropout rate for blacks due to racial profiling? Is the fact that 75% black households growing up without their fathers due to racial profiling?

My point is that racial profiling is a bad, bad thing, but it's not really the main issue at all.

Everybody wants to see the black community make great strides and improvements. And obviously racial profiling happens in society and it is a horrible, horrible demeaning thing to happen to a person. But my point is people like Al Sharpton and the mainstream media seem come out of the woodwork and go nuts about something like this when they are nowhere to be seen with the bigger issues. Why isn't Al Sharpton doing demonstrations and getting black celebrities out in force regarding the thousands of black on black murders? The George Zimmermans of the world are not the issue in the black community! Non blacks murdering blacks because of racial profiling is a TINY PERCENTAGE. A rounding error. This stuff gets every one off focus of the real issues and then the REAL problems never get addressed.

I also really tire of the liberal far left political correctness on racial issues (and for the record I am liberal on most social issues and fiscally conservative). I think liberals can be some of the worst racists of all, being racists of low expectations of a person ability to think for themselves & pull themselves up. The whole "victim " mentality crap. They never want to hurt anyone's feelings or step on anyone's toes, so they perpetuate mis-truths just to be politically correct, and therefore progress is never made because the truth is never told. They fail to put much of the blame on the *personal responsibility* of the black community and continue to perpetuate the myth that "white racism" is to blame for everything. They fail to tell the truth that much of someones situation in life comes from the *personal decisions* they make and the *personal actions* they take. And no amount of Government funding is going to solve that. If you commit a crime that is a *personal decision* you make on your own, and you own that decision, that is NOBODY ELSES FAULT!

When you blame everything on "white racism", it takes away the other parties personal responsibility and personal accountability. Any failure in your life you can just easily blame on white racism. "I committed this crime and abandoned my kids because of white racism". "I'm in this situation in life because of white racism." Of course none of it had anything at all to do with my personal decisions in life or own self discipline.

I really like what Bill Cosby has to say on the status of Black America and what needs to be done to improve it. He has been one of the most interesting voices on this topic IMO. He is big on personal responsibility and accountability, and not the whole bleeding heart liberal denial game. And it's not stuff Al Sharpton would likely agree with, at least publicly.

"white racism" is profiling too I agree and notice that many get upset when thusly profiled.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 22, 2013 - 6:48am.

http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2013/07/...

story on black guy shooting white kid gets an NG in NY.

perhaps the problems of America are unfixable.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 22, 2013 - 10:15am.

We may profile but we should not condone it or even talk casually about it. Certain things are just not acceptable. And it's not ok for profiling to be part of institutions such as the police.

Blogstar said kids are not racist. I pretty much agree. Racist parents bring up racist kids. Young people are better than the older generations.

For those who think that profiling or "intuition" is ok, how about profiling based on other parts of "looks" such as beauty, weight, height, fashion, etc...?

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 22, 2013 - 10:40am.

FlyerInHi wrote:
We may profile but we should not condone it or even talk casually about it. Certain things are just not acceptable. And it's not ok for profiling to be part of institutions such as the police.

Blogstar said kids are not racist. I pretty much agree. Racist parents bring up racist kids. Younig people are better than the older generations.

For those who think that profiling or "intuition" is ok, how about profiling based on other parts of "looks" such as beauty, weight, height, fashion, etc...?

How about FBI profilers? I don't think you're approaching profiling from quite the right perspective. I want law enforcement to profile, if they're using good intel and good inputs. I want cops using their intuition (which is a product of training and experience). As a former soldier, I'll tell you that instinct and intuition saved my happy ass numerous times. You ignore such things at your peril.

Ask any good intel operator if he'd rather have intel developed from SIGINT/ELINT (Signals Intelligence/Electronic Intelligence) input or HUMINT (Human Intelligence).

Submitted by outtamojo on July 22, 2013 - 10:55am.

squat300 wrote:
http://www.ironicsurrealism.com/2013/07/20/justicefortrayvon-where-is-justice-for-christopher-cervini-jury-finds-black-man-not-guilty-after-he-shot-unarmed-white-teen-in-self-defense/

story on black guy shooting white kid gets an NG in NY.

perhaps the problems of America are unfixable.

"The message is that we can all go out and get guns and feel anybody that we feel is threatening us and lie about the fact,” said Jim Cervini,..."

That, in a nutshell, is what I personally fear the most about the Zimmerman shooting.
Being in law enforcement is tough enough with training so when ordinary citizens try to play cop bad things seem to happen.
Supposedly they are neighbors.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 22, 2013 - 11:07am.

outtamojo][quote=squat300 wrote:

"The message is that we can all go out and get guns and feel anybody that we feel is threatening us and lie about the fact,” said Jim Cervini,..."

That, in a nutshell, is what I personally fear the most about the Zimmerman shooting.
Being in law enforcement is tough enough with training so when ordinary citizens try to play cop bad things seem to happen.
Supposedly they are neighbors.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away..."

Submitted by outtamojo on July 22, 2013 - 11:23am.

Allan from Fallbrook][quote=outtamojo wrote:
squat300 wrote:

"The message is that we can all go out and get guns and feel anybody that we feel is threatening us and lie about the fact,” said Jim Cervini,..."

That, in a nutshell, is what I personally fear the most about the Zimmerman shooting.
Being in law enforcement is tough enough with training so when ordinary citizens try to play cop bad things seem to happen.
Supposedly they are neighbors.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away..."

Yeah I get it - in hindsight and on my living room couch I question why the guy had to confront and apprehend when the kid lived down the street from him.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 22, 2013 - 11:36am.

I agree with you Allan. But we have to be very careful. Human intel can be placed there to encourage a course of action.

We don't want profiling to pervade our everyday life.

It might be more efficient to stop black drivers at road blocks at night. We may initially reduce crime, but we will create an apartheid system that creates even more crime.

Asian engineers are dominant in tech now. Can we assume Asians are smarter? And that other races are not as suitable for that industry? How would kids of other races feel if they hear everyday that Asians are better at math? I bet their choices will be different.

Profiling and intuition can save your ass in some cases. But it can bite you in the ass as well.

We want to create a culture of equality and that depends of the language we use. And if we keep on telling young black males that they are criminals we creating what we expect.

We know what the status quo is already. We need to try something different if we want progress.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 22, 2013 - 11:49am.

Outtamojo: Totally agree with you. He did not. However, between the Cervini case and the Trayvon Martin case, I don't see some sudden tsunami of these type shootings.

Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law has been thrown around quite a bit, but it was not a factor in the case. In the Cervini case, the shooter (per the law) should have given ground, but did not. The law is as imperfect as those people adjudicating it, but I shouldretain, within reason, the right to defend me and mine from harm.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 22, 2013 - 11:57am.

FIH: But we have made progress. Tremendous progress. The problem is someone like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson decrying the parlous state of race relations in this country, when the facts tell a far different story. They're peddling a false narrative and manufactured outrage for self-aggrandizement and personal gain.

The George Zimmermans of the world aren't the gravest threat to black youth. Other black youths are. Why isn't Sharpton screaming about that? You know and I know.

Do I believe profiling is a panacea? Nope, it's simply a tool, to be used with other tools.

Do I believe racism is dead in America? Nope. But I do honestly believe we are making progress every day.

And the Sharptons and Jesse Jackson's deter and detract, not advance, that progress.

Submitted by Hobie on July 22, 2013 - 2:42pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
.. how about profiling based on other parts of "looks" such as beauty, weight, height, fashion, etc...?

been on Match.com lately? ;) guess that is the good kind of profiling :)

Submitted by Hobie on July 22, 2013 - 2:49pm.

You guys are all over this issue. In the correct sense. Where is the Black and Hispanic leadership trying to raise the bar in their communities. Need leaders to promote family, education, values, morals, etc. Without this, nothing changes.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 23, 2013 - 5:10am.
Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 23, 2013 - 11:37am.

Allan, I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

But where is the government in providing birth control and family planning? Do we want poor destitute people to have kids who will become criminals. How about looking at the source.

You said something about destroying the black family. How about teaching young black girls family planning skills and providing them the means (super cheap and easily within reach) to control their own bodies?

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 23, 2013 - 2:30pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
Allan, I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

But where is the government in providing birth control and family planning? Do we want poor destitute people to have kids who will become criminals. How about looking at the source.

You said something about destroying the black family. How about teaching young black girls family planning skills and providing them the means (super cheap and easily within reach) to control their own bodies?

FIH: Hey, couldn't agree more. But the government bears quite a bit of responsibility here. The deployment of race-positive social programs institutionalized the underclass and created a series of perverse incentives, not least of which was the common practice of having ever more children because the state essentially "paid" you to do so.

Submitted by ctr70 on July 23, 2013 - 7:42pm.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...

Here is an opinion piece in the WSJ from Shelby Steele that really nails it all. He is a black scholar at Stanford and very articulate. Would love to see this guy debate Al Sharpton.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 23, 2013 - 9:07pm.

ctr70 wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324448104578618681599902640.html?mod=hp_opinion

Here is an opinion piece in the WSJ from Shelby Steele that really nails it all. He is a black scholar at Stanford and very articulate. Would love to see this guy debate Al Sharpton.

That was an excellent opinion piece. Sadly, it will either be ignored by those who should read it most, or Mr. Steele will be derided as "not authentically black" or a sellout.

Submitted by CA renter on July 23, 2013 - 11:29pm.

Great article, ctr.

Submitted by outtamojo on July 24, 2013 - 2:30am.

Are we sure we're not encouraging more of this

http://fox2now.com/2013/07/21/one-dead-f...

http://fox2now.com/2013/07/22/wife-of-ma...

"...Authorities asked Crocker why he didn’t call police and let them handle it. A deputy quoted Crocker as saying if he did that, the people on the float trip would have left the area before authorities arrived. The cop asked isn’t that what you (Crocker) wanted, for them to leave. Crocker agreed that would have worked to (sic)."

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 8:59am.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
ctr70 wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324448104578618681599902640.html?mod=hp_opinion

Here is an opinion piece in the WSJ from Shelby Steele that really nails it all. He is a black scholar at Stanford and very articulate. Would love to see this guy debate Al Sharpton.

That was an excellent opinion piece. Sadly, it will either be ignored by those who should read it most, or Mr. Steele will be derided as "not authentically black" or a sellout.

Plus one for the article.

That is also true.

This "hard work" he talks about, in actually helping black youth.

What is it?

How much is personal responsibility and how much the governments?

And while the indictment if the leadership rings true...do we still beat any responsibility as a nation to help black youth?

Or are they on their own?

In 1993 my constit. Law final was on the issue of a hypothetical slavery reparations law.

I got a very high grade. 2d highest in lg class.

Submitted by no_such_reality on July 24, 2013 - 9:02am.

squat300 wrote:

In 1993 my constit. Law final was on the issue of a hypothetical slavery reparations law.

I got a very high grade. 2d highest in lg class.

Whoopie do, you said what the Prof wanted to hear.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 24, 2013 - 9:40am.

I don't know. Maybe it was just the "right" answer. There were many, many legal issues, including how it would be financed and it was necessary to argue pro and con on all the issues. Can't remember the issues...

Conservative student body... Maybe they forgot to argue the pro fully. Lots of grumbling about how "weird" the question was...

That was a good test for me.

But whoopie do is about right, ultimately. It was a silly issue, right?

Didn't we recently give reparations to the Japanese in camps during WWII ?

I distinctly remember many of the legal issues were raised in one clause of one sentence in a lengthy question, tucked away. I never forgot that. Read carefully. The issue or answer orimpirtant winning point is often tucked away somewhere...

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