ot; trayvon martin

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Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 16, 2013 - 7:07am

guns. self-defense. 2nd am. neighborhood watch, guns make us safer, racial profiling.

I think I could sum up the piggingtonian positions, but not sure on this case...

and etc...

as michael moore said, "if trayvon martin had been white and george zimmerman had been black--do I even need to finish that sentence?"

Submitted by UCGal on July 16, 2013 - 8:25am.

Welcome back Scaredy/Walter/Squat.

I'll admit I don't understand how the castle doctrine can apply outside one's home. Why wasn't Zimmerman's following (stalking) of Martin through the neighborhood considered a threat that would allow deadly force. (As the defense said the concrete was deadly force.) Why did stand your ground apply to Zimmerman, but not to Martin when Zimmerman followed Martin, even after being told not to, by the police.

I really don't get it. It seems very one sided.

Submitted by spdrun on July 16, 2013 - 8:58am.

Not a single sympathetic character in this whole mess. F'em all. Lastly, Zimmerman may have been let off by a jury (as he should have been -- the prosecution's case didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt), but bet you he'll have a hard time finding work or clients once his fair-weather supporters are done using him.

Submitted by SK in CV on July 16, 2013 - 9:00am.

spdrun wrote:
Not a single sympathetic character in this whole mess. F'em all. Lastly, Zimmerman may have been let off by a jury (as he should have been -- the prosecution's case didn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt), but bet you he'll have a hard time finding work or clients once his fair-weather supporters are done using him.

Really? No sympathy for a dead kid buying candy for his sister?

Submitted by spdrun on July 16, 2013 - 9:12am.

Some sympathy, but I don't think he was a saint either. But I'd certainly not do business with any company that hired or contracted with Zimmerman in the future. Let him die young, broke, forgotten, and friendless like JW Milam and Roy Bryant did.

Submitted by SK in CV on July 16, 2013 - 9:17am.

Yeah, he made the mistake of walking while black. Not very saintly.

Submitted by spdrun on July 16, 2013 - 9:30am.

They both seemed like wannabe tough guys. Zimmerman = wannabe cop who beat on his ex in his spare time and flunked out of school. Martin = wannabe gang member. At least Martin was 17; teens get involved in stupid things and follow stupid fads. If anything, I have more sympathy for Martin, since I remember people who I went to HS dressing and acting like that at 17, and turning out fine 10 years later.

Zimmerman was old enough to have known better. As I said, I have no love for Zimmerman and hope that he dies forgotten and destitute. Or perhaps Zimmerman will fuck with the wrong person next time and that person will be quicker to fire than him.

Submitted by no_such_reality on July 16, 2013 - 9:50am.

This case is tragedy, the media coverage has been abysmal, biased and race baiting. The counters to that play right back with other racial stereotypes and hyperbole.

The disinformation from both sides is appalling and the talking heads are running rampant with opinions that aren't even close the the facts presented in the case.

The reaction going on is what the media has been stoking for a year starting with NBC editing the 911 call tapes.

Take a look at Zimmerman's 911 call
A 17 old kid is dead. Zimmerman realized he was a kid when Trayvon ran and Zimmerman then got out of the car. Zimmerman literally says he was a kid when Trayvon approached the vehicle Zimmerman was in. Zimmerman then said "Ok" when the 911 dispatcher told him he didn't need to follow Trayvon. Zimmerman and the Dispatcher than proceeded to have a discussion where Zimmerman provided his name, location and phone and made a plan to meet the officers

Some time after that the altercation happened. How? Only two people know. One is dead. But as the one witness neighbor reported, the one wearing the hoodie was on top of the other on the ground doing a ground and pound style fight.

The alternatives here aren't good. There's a bunch of things both of them shouldn't have done. But expecting people to turn a blind eye to people walking around in the rain and dark in their neighborhood during a rash of burglaries is unrealistic.

It's unrealistic to think they should be free shoot someone down too.

As it's unrealistic to think getting out of your car to ask someone what they're doing at night in your neighborhood is going to get you a ground and pound beat down.

So this is a sh*t ball they both made. Trayvon was a 17 year old kid, they don't always have the best judgement. Zimmerman was a full adult. So unless it really went down the way Zimmerman says, IMHO, Zimmerman is ultimately responsible.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 16, 2013 - 9:53am.

The trial was fair but clearly there is injustice.

The not guilty verdict might turn out to be good for the Black community. They will be more energized and vote more as we have seen in 2012 when black turnout was high. They will rally and demonstrate more. That's what we need to change the culture.

If Zimmerman is free and working, the Martin family will ultimately be able to collect more money from any civil suit..

Everyone I talk to agrees that there was racial profiling. Guns owners are almost all on the Zimmerman side.

Submitted by SK in CV on July 16, 2013 - 10:19am.

no_such_reality wrote:

As it's unrealistic to think getting out of your car to ask someone what they're doing at night in your neighborhood is going to get you a ground and pound beat down.

I don't think there is any evidence that it happened that way. Zimmerman didn't simply get out of his car, he followed him. Who threw the first punch, nobody knows except Zimmerman and a dead kid. But Zimmerman never got a beat down, at least not the way his attorney would have you believe. Martin may have been on top, but Zimmerman's head never got beat into the pavement. If it had, he would have had a concussion at least, or more likely knocked unconscious. Maybe even killed. Head pounded into concrete doesn't leave a couple of small cuts not requiring stitches.

Whether he was afraid for his life is another thing nobody except Zimmerman will ever know for sure. I think it's likely that a black kid in a hoodie scared the shit out of him. Which is why he was carrying a gun.

One more thing that has been poorly reported is the "stand your ground" issues related to the case. SYG defense was not asserted, nor was it ever mentioned by the defense.

Submitted by CardiffBaseball on July 16, 2013 - 10:29am.

We are in Sanford all the time and the stadium we play is in the Ghetto. So far no issues.

With each passing day I get more and more fed up, I went from being devastated for the parents all day Sunday to just incensed at the loony ass arguments put forth by the "Social Justice" crowd.

We know the media completely lied about Zimmerman. The FBI is advising holder not to bring a civil rights lawsuit against the guy because they investigated him and found zero evidence of him being a racist.

Without the phony racist-stalker hoopla nobody would even give a shit about this case. The media is going to pay for it particularly NBC but still the language being used by Sharpton and the others ignores all of the lies and fabrications.

I am sorry a neighborhood watch guy seriously wanting to protect his neighborhood is not stalking. Tragic situation, no winners.

But listen to the marchers now. Some of the most idiotic, nonsensical bullshit I've ever heard. "Whites are hunting out babies". Huh? And all the nonsense based on a lie.

Submitted by CardiffBaseball on July 16, 2013 - 10:52am.

SK in CV wrote:
no_such_reality wrote:

As it's unrealistic to think getting out of your car to ask someone what they're doing at night in your neighborhood is going to get you a ground and pound beat down.

I don't think there is any evidence that it happened that way. Zimmerman didn't simply get out of his car, he followed him. Who threw the first punch, nobody knows except Zimmerman and a dead kid. But Zimmerman never got a beat down, at least not the way his attorney would have you believe. Martin may have been on top, but Zimmerman's head never got beat into the pavement. If it had, he would have had a concussion at least, or more likely knocked unconscious. Maybe even killed. Head pounded into concrete doesn't leave a couple of small cuts not requiring stitches.

Nonsense have you ever gotten into fist-fights? Why would you think getting a it's a done deal to have concussion because you get knocked down, and the guy gets on top and starts to ground and pound. If this were the case every person who's ever lost a fight would have concussion symptoms. If TM is on top smacking him with punches, it does hurt a little perhaps, but it's doubtful it will cause a concussion.

I once got ground/pounded by a bully, he had the upper hand, people thought I was finished, I somehow escaped and we got back to our feet. I came in faked a big overhand right meant to load the left side he had ducked a little away from the right and I knocked him out with a left hook he never saw it coming. Spun his head around as he went to the ground I hit him so hard. I'd venture to say he hit my face 25 times? I hit his face once, which one of us is more likely to have concussion symptoms? Being on bottom is more of a nuisance that will cut you up you won't get a concussion most likely. Same with the head smacking on the pavement nobody said it had to crush his skull, it's possible he didn't get a good hold of his head and only grazed it.

Also I bleed like crazy. I had braces on, and the guy was hitting me with his class ring. He was sitting there in a daze not able to stand up for a minute or so, with no blood. A casual observer would say I got my pounded but outside of having braces it didn't hurt at all and most of it wiped right off.

Submitted by no_such_reality on July 16, 2013 - 10:58am.

SK in CV wrote:

I don't think there is any evidence that it happened that way. Zimmerman didn't simply get out of his car, he followed him. Who threw the first punch, nobody knows except Zimmerman and a dead kid. But Zimmerman never got a beat down, at least not the way his attorney would have you believe. Martin may have been on top, but Zimmerman's head never got beat into the pavement.

Neighbor Good testimony

Quote:

O’Mara: Just to clarify what was actually talked about with Chris Serino, Investigator Serino, during this, we’re going to call it for the moment the Ground-and-Pound conversation. We have a rule called completeness, so what I want to do is put it in context for you, ask you if this is what you said to Chris Serino. OK?

“Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Is that the context in which that happened?

Good: Yes.

O’Mara: And then Investigator Serino said, a word that I have, and the transcripts may differ, ground, couldn’t figure it, maybe he said Ground-and-Pound, and then you said:

“Yeah, like a Ground-and-Pound on the concrete at this point, so at this point I told him I’m calling 911.”

BDLR: Objection. Improper bolstering.

O’Mara: I’m at the end of it. Is that–

Judge: There’s an objection and the objection is . . .

BDLR: Hearsay and improper bolstering

O’Mara: I would suggest that rule 108, which is the rule of completeness, suggests that because they brought in part of it . . . and iI’m speaking, I apologize.

Judge: The objection as to hearsay is overruled. Bolstering is not the right objection either, so that’s OK.

BDLR: Beyond the scope of cross-examination to that point

Judge: I overrule on that objection, also, so go ahead.
O’Mara: That’s what you said.

Good: The whole thing, yes

The main issue isn't how badly you've been injured. The real issue is how badly the next good solid punch could injure you when you're on the ground on concrete.

Submitted by NotCranky on July 16, 2013 - 11:09am.

CardiffBaseball wrote:
SK in CV wrote:
no_such_reality wrote:

As it's unrealistic to think getting out of your car to ask someone what they're doing at night in your neighborhood is going to get you a ground and pound beat down.

I don't think there is any evidence that it happened that way. Zimmerman didn't simply get out of his car, he followed him. Who threw the first punch, nobody knows except Zimmerman and a dead kid. But Zimmerman never got a beat down, at least not the way his attorney would have you believe. Martin may have been on top, but Zimmerman's head never got beat into the pavement. If it had, he would have had a concussion at least, or more likely knocked unconscious. Maybe even killed. Head pounded into concrete doesn't leave a couple of small cuts not requiring stitches.

Nonsense have you ever gotten into fist-fights? Why would you think getting a it's a done deal to have concussion because you get knocked down, and the guy gets on top and starts to ground and pound. If this were the case every person who's ever lost a fight would have concussion symptoms. If TM is on top smacking him with punches, it does hurt a little perhaps, but it's doubtful it will cause a concussion.

I once got ground/pounded by a bully, he had the upper hand, people thought I was finished, I somehow escaped and we got back to our feet. I came in faked a big overhand right meant to load the left side he had ducked a little away from the right and I knocked him out with a left hook he never saw it coming. Spun his head around as he went to the ground I hit him so hard. I'd venture to say he hit my face 25 times? I hit his face once, which one of us is more likely to have concussion symptoms? Being on bottom is more of a nuisance that will cut you up you won't get a concussion most likely. Same with the head smacking on the pavement nobody said it had to crush his skull, it's possible he didn't get a good hold of his head and only grazed it.

Also I bleed like crazy. I had braces on, and the guy was hitting me with his class ring. He was sitting there in a daze not able to stand up for a minute or so, with no blood. A casual observer would say I got my pounded but outside of having braces it didn't hurt at all and most of it wiped right off.

George also has to fear that this crazy attacker
who by beating him illegally and therefore confirmed to be criminal, just as George thought, is going to take his gun and shoot him.

Reasonable doubt can not and was not in anyway threatened and these fantastic sympathy based hypotheticals about what might have happened(but really didn't) aren't going to change that.

Submitted by SK in CV on July 16, 2013 - 11:23am.

CardiffBaseball wrote:

Nonsense have you ever gotten into fist-fights? Why would you think getting a it's a done deal to have concussion because you get knocked down, and the guy gets on top and starts to ground and pound. If this were the case every person who's ever lost a fight would have concussion symptoms. If TM is on top smacking him with punches, it does hurt a little perhaps, but it's doubtful it will cause a concussion.

I once got ground/pounded by a bully, he had the upper hand, people thought I was finished, I somehow escaped and we got back to our feet. I came in faked a big overhand right meant to load the left side he had ducked a little away from the right and I knocked him out with a left hook he never saw it coming. Spun his head around as he went to the ground I hit him so hard. I'd venture to say he hit my face 25 times? I hit his face once, which one of us is more likely to have concussion symptoms? Being on bottom is more of a nuisance that will cut you up you won't get a concussion most likely. Same with the head smacking on the pavement nobody said it had to crush his skull, it's possible he didn't get a good hold of his head and only grazed it.

Also I bleed like crazy. I had braces on, and the guy was hitting me with his class ring. He was sitting there in a daze not able to stand up for a minute or so, with no blood. A casual observer would say I got my pounded but outside of having braces it didn't hurt at all and most of it wiped right off.

It would be better if you actually read what I wrote. Ground and pound is one thing. It's a whole different thing to get your head beaten into concrete pavement. Yes, I've been in fights (many many years ago), and been punched in the mouth with closed fists more times than I want to remember. But never had my head bashed into pavement. Happened to a close friend. He's dead. And he only got thrown to the ground and hit his head.

Did you see Zimmerman's lawyer's demonstration with the dummy? It wasn't fists to the face. It was lift by the shoulders and ram down to the ground, back of head hitting pavement at high velocity. That never happened. Nobody ever walks away from that with two little cuts. Nobody walks away from that without a concussion.

Submitted by spdrun on July 16, 2013 - 11:26am.

Yeah, a 20 lb dummy, vs a 200+ lb fatso.

Submitted by Hobie on July 16, 2013 - 11:29am.

..and the protests and various riots? How many didn't agree with the OJ verdict and did not riot?

This is not in search for truth, but for politics using race as the catalyst.

It is easy for journalists to cover this crap vs. actually working to cover world events, our economy, fact checking politicians.

At least we don't have wall to wall coverage of Bob Filner, .. yet.

Submitted by NotCranky on July 16, 2013 - 11:37am.

spdrun wrote:
Yeah, a 20 lb dummy, vs a 200+ lb fatso.

When i was Trayvon's age I was built a lot like him only maybe a little taller and thinner. I could have beat the hell out of a lot tougher than GZ. There were some tough guys around and they did not see me as a good risk(even though odds were in their favor). That's how it works. The tough guy Trayvon saw this duck walking slob and knew he could kick his ass. That's profiling/stalking too.

Submitted by NotCranky on July 16, 2013 - 11:34am.

Hobie wrote:
..and the protests and various riots? How many didn't agree with the OJ verdict and did not riot?

This is not in search for truth, but for politics using race as the catalyst.

It is easy for journalists to cover this crap vs. actually working to cover world events, our economy, fact checking politicians.

At least we don't have wall to wall coverage of Bob Filner, .. yet.

Eric Holder grandstanding on the backs of Trayvon's and George's miserable, but otherwise not terrible compared to other things history, is nothing short of evil.

Submitted by SK in CV on July 16, 2013 - 11:34am.

Hobie wrote:
..and the protests and various riots? How many didn't agree with the OJ verdict and did not riot?

About the same number as now. With the minor exception of Oakland and a bit in LA, there isn't much in the way of riots.

Submitted by dumbrenter on July 16, 2013 - 11:48am.

SK in CV wrote:

I don't think there is any evidence that it happened that way. Zimmerman didn't simply get out of his car, he followed him. Who threw the first punch, nobody knows except Zimmerman and a dead kid. But Zimmerman never got a beat down, at least not the way his attorney would have you believe. Martin may have been on top, but Zimmerman's head never got beat into the pavement. If it had, he would have had a concussion at least, or more likely knocked unconscious. Maybe even killed. Head pounded into concrete doesn't leave a couple of small cuts not requiring stitches.

He stopped following when the dispatcher asked him to.

Do you even realize the silliness of what you are saying? If GZ had a concussion he would not even be on trial today, he might not even be alive, as you say. So should somebody wait till that happens?
The 'threat' of getting head bashed into the pavement is enough for any sane individual to use whatever force at disposal to defend themselves.
Now, how he got into that position is a totally different matter, but how can anyone fault a man for defending himself given his situation?

When people get into a fight in a rush of adrenalin, the thought of how a future jury would look at their actions is very remote in their minds which would be fully occupied with self-preservation.

Submitted by dumbrenter on July 16, 2013 - 11:52am.

no_such_reality wrote:
This case is tragedy, the media coverage has been abysmal, biased and race baiting. The counters to that play right back with other racial stereotypes and hyperbole.

The disinformation from both sides is appalling and the talking heads are running rampant with opinions that aren't even close the the facts presented in the case.

The reaction going on is what the media has been stoking for a year starting with NBC editing the 911 call tapes.

I can't believe that more people do not clearly see what you are saying. Why bias in reporting? Why race baiting? why doctor the tapes?
The only rational explanation I can find is that the media is using this to get more eyeballs, more people watching which translates to more revenue.
Heck, they even managed to get squat/scaredy back to post!

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 16, 2013 - 12:02pm.

The second degree murder trial was fair. But it doesn't mean that Z is not guilty of other crimes.

Nothing wrong with all the media coverage that spurs us to examine our society.

Clearly the tragedy could have been avoided had Z not followed. This whole story will have people examine and determine if they want to be vigilantes.

The Martin family just needs to win a big civil award and follow Zimmerman's money for the rest of his life. They already got the HOA to pay up.

Submitted by spdrun on July 16, 2013 - 12:07pm.

How was the HOA responsible? If someone should be sued, it's Zimmerman, not everyone who's peripherally involved.

TM's family should take the high ground, not follow the Dumberican way of suing anything that breathes.

Submitted by SK in CV on July 16, 2013 - 12:13pm.

maybe the most ironic series of comments.

dumbrenter wrote:
He stopped following when the dispatcher asked him to.

dumbrenter wrote:

I can't believe that more people do not clearly see what you are saying. Why bias in reporting? Why race baiting? why doctor the tapes?
The only rational explanation I can find is that the media is using this to get more eyeballs, more people watching which translates to more revenue.
Heck, they even managed to get squat/scaredy back to post!

The dispatcher never asked him to stop following. What she said was "we don't need you to do that". He didn't claim during his police interrogation that he stopped following. And nobody testified during the trial that he stopped following. There was evidence presented that he never stopped following until the physical altercation began.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 16, 2013 - 12:14pm.

Of course the HOA is responsible. They knew about Z's pattern of behavior and they condoned by allowing Z to continue as a watchman.

Submitted by NotCranky on July 16, 2013 - 12:43pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
Of course the HOA is responsible. They knew about Z's pattern of behavior and they condoned by allowing Z to continue as a watchman.

Who paid, insurance company ? Court ordered, or settlement?

From what I can find it was a settlement. That doesn't imply that is should have been paid, only that it was...happens all the time.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 16, 2013 - 12:52pm.

I read that HOA insurance policy limit was $1 million. The Martin family initially rejected that amount and they finally settled for more than $1 million.

The amount is confidential so we don't know for sure. Sounds like insurance paid the bulk of the award with HOA paying the rest.

Z was the head watchman of the HOA. Maybe the HOA board members liked this wannabe cop credentials. I personally am worried when I meet someone who's owns guns and who's gungho on single handedly stopping crime, or someone who talks about it a lot. A tragedy is waiting to happen.

Submitted by no_such_reality on July 16, 2013 - 12:55pm.

SK in CV wrote:

The dispatcher never asked him to stop following. What she said was "we don't need you to do that". He didn't claim during his police interrogation that he stopped following. And nobody testified during the trial that he stopped following. There was evidence presented that he never stopped following until the physical altercation began.

Quote:


Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: OK, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: OK.

Dispatcher: Alright sir, what is your name?
Zimmerman: George. He ran.
Dispatcher: Alright George, what's your last name?
Zimmerman: Zimmerman.
Dispatcher: And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: xxx-xxx-xxxx
Dispatcher: Alright George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Alright where you gonna meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse, and uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left. And then they go past the mailboxes. They'll see my truck.
Dispatcher: OK, what address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman:Um, I don't know. It's a cut-through, so I don't know the answer.
Dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah.
Dispatcher: What's your apartment number?
Zimmerman:It's a home, it's 1950, ah c--- I don't want to give it out loud, I don't know where this kid is.

Then apparently, Zimmerman is one cool collect sociopath liar.

Submitted by NotCranky on July 16, 2013 - 1:01pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
I read that HOA insurance policy limit was $1 million. The Martin family initially rejectef that amount and they finally settled for more than $1 million.

The amount is confidential so we don't know for sure. Sounds like insurance paid the bulk of the award with HOA paying the rest.

Z was the head watchman of the HOA. Maybe the HOA board member liked this wannabe cop credentials. I personally am worried when I meet someone who's owns guns and who's gungho on single handedly stopping crime, or someone who talks about it a lot. A tragedy is waiting to happen.

I'd probably share your concerns if faced with Zimmerman. People who are repeat victims might be more desperate than you and I.
Maybe they could not afford to leave their neighborhood? Recurring crime is a tough pressure to deal with.

Not sure where I would side on some of this civil stuff. Tend to think nothing should be paid to the family , but I understand how share of fault gets taken into consideration.

Submitted by livinincali on July 16, 2013 - 1:07pm.

This is in interesting case when you see how people reacted to it. The logic and facts clearly indicated that Zimmerman was not guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. On the other hand the media clearly built up an emotional response in the public which has led people to believe Zimmerman is guilty because of how they feel. We really don't want a justice system that determines justice based on feelings.

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