OT: Stop The Steal!

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Submitted by teaboy on September 20, 2021 - 10:43am

Not a new revelation, but it's been brought home to me recently after a surprising conversation with a 'reasonable', republican-leaning, professional friend.

"Among Republicans, 78% believe Biden did not win the election and 54% believe that there is solid evidence to support such a view"
https://www.kake.com/story/44742188/trum...

"In 2020, Gallup found that 73% of Democrats trusted the media "a great deal" or "a fair amount," compared with 36% for independents and just 10% for Republicans."
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/20...

2020 USA Poll Trust in Media2020 USA Poll Trust in Media

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This general (partisan) direction of Truthiness & losing trust in media institutions worries me more that most ills of the US today, since I have trouble envisioning how it unwinds itself..

Thoughts?
tb

Submitted by an on September 20, 2021 - 11:15am.

Lumping all media into the same bucket is useless. I'm sure the number would be flipped if it's about Fox news instead of the media. Like you, I can't envision how this will unwind itself either.

Submitted by XBoxBoy on September 20, 2021 - 11:29am.

teaboy wrote:

This general (partisan) direction of Truthiness & losing trust in media institutions worries me more that most ills of the US today, since I have trouble envisioning how it unwinds itself..

I agree that this is a huge issue. Combine it with a growing view that elites (anyone well educated) is not to be trusted and that science is not to be trusted and you have a recipe for ignorance and superstition. (So much for the ideals of the enlightenment.) Combine this with a distrust for government and the institutions that allow us to have a democracy, and it gets pretty scary.

I know that many of us like to talk about the evils of government, but it's important to remember that without government there would be lawlessness and criminal gangs running things. Not a better choice to be honest.

Submitted by Coronita on September 20, 2021 - 12:17pm.

i dont mind a reversion to dumbness. I think in a lot of ways it's better...

Dumb people often have happier lives than smart people because they are burdening their minds with some many things that are difficult to solve, lol...

Submitted by teaboy on September 20, 2021 - 1:57pm.

dumbness at an individual level might make one happy, but dumbness at a societal level might not.

Submitted by zk on September 20, 2021 - 11:28pm.

Right wing propaganda is driving this ignorance and mistrust. I've been saying for years that right wing propaganda is ruining our country. It's been a runaway train for quite some time now. Still, it just keeps getting crazier and crazier. Tucker Carlson is a raving lunatic, trusted by millions. 78 percent of Republicans think Biden didn't win. I think we've become desensitized to those kind of numbers. 78 percent. That number is absolutely outrageous, and it shows the true power of the right wing propaganda machine.

I don't see how this train gets stopped, either.

https://www.piggington.com/rightwing_med...

Submitted by barnaby33 on September 21, 2021 - 3:51am.

Dumb people aren't happier, they just express their rage in more comedically acceptable ways.

Stupidity in an age of diminishing resources isn't a recipe for happier citizens, it's a recipe for civil war.
Josh

Submitted by teaboy on September 21, 2021 - 8:46am.

I've always thought civil war was on its way here (but much like self-driving cars, always '5 years out' ha-ha.)

I'd always assumed the civil war would be between haves and have-nots, given the ever increasing levels of inequality, but I had trouble understanding how it would manifest itself from general grumblings to all out war. Surely the truly poor are too focused on sustenance?
Does anyone remember why those 99%er protests in NY fizzled out? I dont.

But, a civil war along partisan or ideological lines, fueled by good only fashioned 24/7 propaganda and driven by delusional 2nd amendment masses that make up 50%+ of middle america... now that's a path to civil war I can believe in.

tb

Submitted by Coronita on September 21, 2021 - 9:03am.

I think people who tend to be more intelligent, or think they are more intelligent, generally are more miserable because they have a tendency to overthink and over analyze to the point of paralysis and cynicism over many things. Versus people who are unaware tend to just go with the flow.

No worries of civil war. No doomsday in sight.

Submitted by teaboy on September 21, 2021 - 10:29am.

Reminds me of...

Parenthood MovieParenthood Movie

Submitted by Coronita on September 21, 2021 - 11:32am.

teaboy wrote:
I've always thought civil war was on its way here (but much like self-driving cars, always '5 years out' ha-ha.)

I'd always assumed the civil war would be between haves and have-nots, given the ever increasing levels of inequality, but I had trouble understanding how it would manifest itself from general grumblings to all out war. Surely the truly poor are too focused on sustenance?
Does anyone remember why those 99%er protests in NY fizzled out? I dont.

But, a civil war along partisan or ideological lines, fueled by good only fashioned 24/7 propaganda and driven by delusional 2nd amendment masses that make up 50%+ of middle america... now that's a path to civil war I can believe in.

tb

There won't be a civil war between haves and have nots. Because even if you are someone on paper that is a have not, in this country we have things like credit and credit cards that can be easily obtained so that even the have not's don't need to feel they don't have not enough. And if there's an issue, bankruptcy filing is pretty lax here and one isn't stuck to debtor's prison...

Submitted by sdrealtor on September 21, 2021 - 11:43am.

Yup the doomsayers are essentially winless around here

Submitted by scaredyclassic on September 21, 2021 - 4:31pm.

barnaby33 wrote:
Dumb people aren't happier, they just express their rage in more comedically acceptable ways.

Stupidity in an age of diminishing resources isn't a recipe for happier citizens, it's a recipe for civil war.
Josh

decriminalize sapiosexuality between consenting adults.

Submitted by zk on September 21, 2021 - 8:19pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
Yup the doomsayers are essentially winless around here

Ha! You must live in a cave. 700,000 Americans are dead, hundreds of thousands of them because right wing propaganda brainwashed tens of millions of fools into voting for an incompetent fool who couldn't possibly care less about the United States of America, and who somehow thought he could wish covid away. That propaganda also brainwashed them into thinking that masks don't help, social distancing is not helpful but ivermectin is, and the vaccine should be avoided.

Nobody was predicting the end of the world, but there will probably be a million dead Americans before this is over, half of them unnecessarily, and that's pretty fucking doomy if you ask me.

Submitted by Coronita on September 21, 2021 - 7:31pm.

nothing to worry about. I think what is more likely to happen is that more people in the center are fed up with both extremes on both parties and eventually abandon both parties for something in the center future.

it's already happening to the GOP. The more the crazies take over, the quicker this acceleration will happen.

I think what the crazy right is doing to this GOP party is the best thing that could have happened to american politics in a long time.

I'm going to start supporting Warren and AOC more so that people get fed up about that extreme too and eventually that side blows up too.

Just the day after the recall election results, I was driving to Del Mar Highlands and there was this person in a mercedes SUV in front of me with an Elders/Trump Stop the Steal bumper sticker.

First if off, shame on anyone for putting any ugly bumper sticker on a new luxury car.
Second, out of all bumper stickers, why put a loser candidate on your car and now you can't get it off...

I felt bad and was in a celebratory spirit so I parked next to the guy, and I was about get out of the car, and give him a free bottle of hand santizer..you know, so he could drink and cure himself of covid....Or offer him one of my flat earther bumper sticker to stick right over his Trump/Elder bumper sticker.

Submitted by sdrealtor on September 21, 2021 - 11:44pm.

Nice attempted political thread jack. I am talking about the economy here not the pandemic which we are all pretty much in agreement on. Back on ignore list you go

Submitted by The-Shoveler on September 22, 2021 - 7:19am.

Coronita wrote:
nothing to worry about. I think what is more likely to happen is that more people in the center are fed up with both extremes on both parties and eventually abandon both parties for something in the center future.

+1

Submitted by flyer on September 22, 2021 - 8:37am.

+2. As an Independent, I try to believe there will eventually be a middle ground alternative to both ridiculous extremes, but I'm not holding my breath, and that will be my only comment on that topic.

Submitted by sdrealtor on September 22, 2021 - 11:29am.

Would love to see a middle ground party formed. Honestly I think it would have to be a very moderate Republican rather than a conservative Democrat to make it work though. Of course I could be wrong

Submitted by zk on September 22, 2021 - 3:43pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
Nice attempted political thread jack.

Political thread jack? You're kidding, right? Whenever you and I get into a discussion lately, you try to get by on bluster and attitude because you have no winning arguments, but to accuse me of a "political thread jack" is a new low in your usage of bluster over content. This entire thread is political. The OP was political. The responses are appropriately political.

sdrealtor wrote:

I am talking about the economy here not the pandemic

The entire thread is about politics. About how worrisome the current political issues are for our future. Political doomsaying.

From the OP:

This general (partisan) direction of Truthiness & losing trust in media institutions worries me more that most ills of the US today, since I have trouble envisioning how it unwinds itself..

You come on this political doomsaying thread and, after I (and others) chimed in on the political doomsaying, you say, "Yup the doomsayers are essentially winless around here." You don't give any hint that you're talking about the economy - here on this thread about political doomsaying where no economic predictions had even been made. Then you accuse me of a political threadjack when I point out, perfectly in line with the original post and with the thread in general, the political doom - specifically doom related to misinformation, as discussed in the OP - that has already happened. By no standard is that a political threadjack. Calling it one is perfectly in line with your tiresome method of bluster over content.

sdrealtor wrote:

Back on ignore list you go

Oh, no! You're going to ignore me! What shall I ever do without your attention?!

Oh, wait, never mind. If I actually gave a damn, I wouldn't need to worry. You won't ignore me. You're not capable of it.

Submitted by teaboy on September 22, 2021 - 1:07pm.

Coronita wrote:
nothing to worry about. I think what is more likely to happen is that more people in the center are fed up with both extremes on both parties and eventually abandon both parties for something in the center future.

Not trying to be dumb here, but what are we all considering as "extremes"?

Republican extremes:
- over deregulation?
- promote gun rights?
- outlaw abortion & promote abstinence?
- deny climate change science & dont address it?
- promote raw capitalism?
- routinely allow outright lies to propagate to their political advantage?
- others?

Democratic extremes:
- over regulation?
- restrict gun rights?
- protect abortion rights, planned parenthood & free love?
- embrace climate change & enact laws to address it?
- promote universal childcare, medicare?
- routinely spin truths to their political advantage?
- others?

I've not thought this thru too hard nor have I worded any of it very well. I just threw some words down as a straw man.
It's not obvious to me and I'm genuinely interested what y'all think, cos if our definition of "extremes" are very different, then surely so are our respective definitions of the political "center."

tb

Submitted by Coronita on September 22, 2021 - 3:08pm.

teaboy wrote:
Coronita wrote:
nothing to worry about. I think what is more likely to happen is that more people in the center are fed up with both extremes on both parties and eventually abandon both parties for something in the center future.

Not trying to be dumb here, but what are we all considering as "extremes"?

Republican extremes:
- over deregulation?
- promote gun rights?
- outlaw abortion & promote abstinence?
- deny climate change science & dont address it?
- promote raw capitalism?
- routinely allow outright lies to propagate to their political advantage?
- others?

Democratic extremes:
- over regulation?
- restrict gun rights?
- protect abortion rights, planned parenthood & free love?
- embrace climate change & enact laws to address it?
- promote universal childcare, medicare?
- routinely spin truths to their political advantage?
- others?

I've not thought this thru too hard nor have I worded any of it very well. I just threw some words down as a straw man.
It's not obvious to me and I'm genuinely interested what y'all think, cos if our definition of "extremes" are very different, then surely so are our respective definitions of the political "center."

tb

I would consider extreme

On the far right:

Attacking a covid a vaccine, against mask, attacking science, instituting a herd mentality to resist the vaccine and taking some precautions. Supporting QANon conspiracy theories, and generally making shit up about covid that isn't true

On the far left:
AOC/Warren and the likes that love to blame everyone else "rich" for every social injustice. repeatedly beating the "inequality" drum such that every deficiency, shortcoming is always a social inequality "problem"...

If you take away some of this fridgy people, I think what you would be left with would be

1. Some balance of gun rights
2. Woman's right to choose
3. Some partial social safety net heavily incentivized for people to take some personal responsibility
4. A balanced social policy that addresses some glaring social inequity, not something ad-nausem
5. Some reasonable middle fiscal policy
6. Some in between amount of regulation meant to protect the environment and some amount of regulation meant to protect US businesses.

Submitted by The-Shoveler on September 22, 2021 - 4:04pm.

You have my vote flu

Submitted by scaredyclassic on September 22, 2021 - 4:38pm.

1. Some balance of gun rights

certainly should be permitted to bear arms during an insurrection at the Capitol, for instance.

2. Woman's right to choose

the right to choose MURDER?

3. Some partial social safety net heavily incentivized for people to take some personal responsibility

fair enough. does that include discharge in bankruptcy for student loans?

4. A balanced social policy that addresses some glaring social inequity, not something ad-nausem

huh?

5. Some reasonable middle fiscal policy

Too late. The billionaires won.

6. Some in between amount of regulation meant to protect the environment and some amount of regulation meant to protect US businesses.

Too late; the earth is burning.

Submitted by Coronita on September 22, 2021 - 6:14pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:

1. Some balance of gun rights

certainly should be permitted to bear arms during an insurrection at the Capitol, for instance.

Shouldn't be that easy for a kid to have access to one.

Quote:

2. Woman's right to choose

the right to choose MURDER?

Depends on what how late the pregnancy is. Obviously, should not be the first choice of birth control.

Quote:

3. Some partial social safety net heavily incentivized for people to take some personal responsibility

fair enough. does that include discharge in bankruptcy for student loans?


We should look at why students need get into trouble with student loans to begin with. Why is an education at state school so much, especially now some hybrid amount of in person and remote learning can be achieved.

It shouldn't be that easy to qualify for credit cards and other unsecure debt.

Quote:

4. A balanced social policy that addresses some glaring social inequity, not something ad-nausem

huh?

Anyone who continuously talk about reparations is fringy left. It was the past, stop apologizing for something that happened decades ago. Also, punish the cops that did bad things. Stop lumping all cops into the same category. Throw bad cops in jail.

Quote:

5. Some reasonable middle fiscal policy

Too late. The billionaires won.

Maybe

Quote:

6. Some in between amount of regulation meant to protect the environment and some amount of regulation meant to protect US businesses.

Too late; the earth is burning.

We should consider building water pipelines, putting more research into water desalinization, alternative energy, solar farms, etc. States should provide each state what they are capable of.
For example, the water drought and Colorado water shortage is going to far impact states like Arizona, Nevada, than CA because of the way those water rights were negotiated plus CA is on the coast with access to the ocean.

Invest in water desalination tech, let CA be a net export of water.. Arizona/Utah/Nevada with there large swatches of desert land can run large solar farms and export electricity to other states....
the Ca bullet train idea is stupid and total waste of money. CA trades water for electricity with other states. Everyone wins.

The Colorado River water rights is an interesting read. It's been running a deficit, and it's going to need to be renegotiated. CA isn't the biggest loser here:

https://www.hcn.org/articles/opinion-wat...

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/08/...

Submitted by svelte on September 24, 2021 - 12:01pm.

teaboy wrote:

Republican extremes:
- over deregulation?

This is an oversimplification as you point out riiight here:
teaboy wrote:

- outlaw abortion

I would add MJ and gay marriage to that list also...
teaboy wrote:

Democratic extremes:
- over regulation?

This is an oversimplication as you point out riiiight here:
teaboy wrote:

- protect abortion rights, planned parenthood & free love?

Submitted by sdduuuude on October 1, 2021 - 6:44pm.

The only way to unwind it is to significantly limit the amount of dollars flowing through the government.

When there is so much money involved, everyone wants control of it and the arguments to prevent the other side from getting control escalate as the dollars increase.

What also increases is the willingness of everyone - from biased media outlets to lobbyists to welfare recipients to corporations - to pay to sway the public to their side.

Also, both sides make deals - I'll vote to get your stuff funded if you vote for mine. And so government spending only grows. From 10% of your income over poverty in the early 1900s to 60% now, all tax types considered.

Take the money away, regulate only transaction between people and stop trying to regulate society to a specific economic or social outcome. Do that and the people will sort it out without running to the government.

Submitted by sdduuuude on October 1, 2021 - 11:05pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
Would love to see a middle ground party formed. Honestly I think it would have to be a very moderate Republican rather than a conservative Democrat to make it work though. Of course I could be wrong

I'd settle for a Republican that can let go of all the religious baggage. Give up the abortion fight, give up the war on drugs, stop regulating morality if it isn't directly hurting someone else, and just ignore the gay, transgender thing altogether.

Submitted by sdduuuude on October 1, 2021 - 11:05pm.

dup

Submitted by sdduuuude on October 1, 2021 - 11:08pm.

Coronita wrote:
nothing to worry about. I think what is more likely to happen is that more people in the center are fed up with both extremes on both parties and eventually abandon both parties for something in the center future.

it's already happening to the GOP. The more the crazies take over, the quicker this acceleration will happen.

Ya. That is my hope as well.

Submitted by teaboy on October 4, 2021 - 2:18pm.

sdduuuude wrote:

I'd settle for a Republican that can let go of all the religious baggage. Give up the abortion fight, give up the war on drugs, stop regulating morality if it isn't directly hurting someone else, and just ignore the gay, transgender thing altogether.

Bwahaha!

I read somewhere that part of the problem (on both sides of the aisle) is that many, many politically active folks consider themselves "fiscally conservative, socially liberal" and assume the majority of the population are, too.
However, the reality is that most of the voting proletariat actually lean more "socially conservative, fiscally liberal."

tb

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