Harvey has been posting here Harvey has been posting here for some time, and in that time, he has intentionally and maliciously misquoted other posters in an attempt to frame them in a negative light. He’s been trolling this site, and his actions have caused the level of discourse here to severely degrade to the point that we have lost some valuable contributors to this forum. He prevents posters from being able to have intelligent, informed discussions about a wide variety of issues because he regularly forces threads to devolve into long strings of false accusations and personal attacks.
I have never asked for a person to be banned on any forum in my 20+ years on the internet (to the contrary, I’ve often supported those who were threatened with banning because I dislike echo chambers and think that we need access to multiple perspectives), but Pri has, once again, intentionally and maliciously attempted to make it look like I said something, via the quote feature, that was never stated. He’s done this on numberous occassions, not only to me, but to other posters as well.
This is his most recent attempt at the bottom of the first page:
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
I’m not “Harvey” or any other I’m not “Harvey” or any other handle / poster here. Leave me out of this. This is your one and only warning.
CA renter
April 21, 2018 @
1:55 AM
gogogosandiego wrote:I’m not [quote=gogogosandiego]I’m not “Harvey” or any other handle / poster here. Leave me out of this. This is your one and only warning.[/quote]
Your posting style, tone, and trolling tactics belie your claim. People are welcome to review your posts to ascertain for themselves who you are.
Anonymous
April 20, 2018 @
7:02 PM
ucodegen wrote:
Harvey, you [quote=ucodegen]
Harvey, you may have skipped a dose on your meds. CA renter never said that ‘you‘ hacked their Email. CA renter said ‘someone’. proof:
[quote=CA renter](And it might just be a coincidence, but someone has tried to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington. I do *not* believe that it is Rich.)[/quote]
Comment number 280690 on the ‘Countering Disinformation And Propagation Act’ thread – bottom of their comment. The direct links to comments don’t work, however it would be the 3rd comment down on the 5th page.[/quote]
Comment #1.
This thread.
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote]
CA renter
April 21, 2018 @
2:06 AM
harvey wrote:ucodegen [quote=harvey][quote=ucodegen]
Harvey, you may have skipped a dose on your meds. CA renter never said that ‘you‘ hacked their Email. CA renter said ‘someone’. proof:
[quote=CA renter](And it might just be a coincidence, but someone has tried to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington. I do *not* believe that it is Rich.)[/quote]
Comment number 280690 on the ‘Countering Disinformation And Propagation Act’ thread – bottom of their comment. The direct links to comments don’t work, however it would be the 3rd comment down on the 5th page.[/quote]
Comment #1.
This thread.
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote][/quote]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
You’ve been intentionally and maliciously trolling this forum for a long time. Your ad hominem attacks and claims that people have said things that they’ve never said (and using the quote feature to fill in your own words under other posters’ names to make it look like they had made these statements) are totally unacceptable. For that reason alone, you should be banned.
Anonymous
April 21, 2018 @
6:24 AM
CA renter wrote:
It’s true, I [quote=CA renter]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
Hold on … I need to turn down the volume on the microphone feed … the whooshing sound of all of this going over your head is deafening.
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.
FlyerInHi
April 21, 2018 @
8:36 AM
harvey wrote:CA renter [quote=harvey][quote=CA renter]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
Hold on … I need to turn down the volume on the microphone feed … the whooshing sound of all of this going over your head is deafening.
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.[/quote]
And yet, Russia was a hoax. She said something like that…. not going to look it up. Maybe she will look it up for me.
FlyerInHi
April 21, 2018 @
6:06 PM
harvey wrote:
It’s cute that [quote=harvey]
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.[/quote]
Trolling, mocking comments, even misquoting for parody are free speech. Accusing someone of illegal activity is defamation.
ucodegen
April 21, 2018 @
7:07 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:harvey [quote=FlyerInHi][quote=harvey]
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.[/quote]
Trolling, mocking comments, even misquoting for parody are free speech. Accusing someone of illegal activity is defamation.[/quote]
First point: misquoting for parody w/out making it clear that it is parody, is actually defamation/libel. See libel involving an altered quotes. Being ‘implied’ in your point of view or view of the person does not qualify. It must be whether anyone else would mistake the misquote as being actual. Parody is a very fine line, and the way it was done actually crosses the line to libel. Now you understand why I tend to use the ‘snark’ markings.
Some of these are British, but much of the same legislation is coming over here to the U.S. Some of it already here. The issues are how much, how often, how persistent. Don’t assume automatic Freedom of Speech.. because there are actually limits to Freedom of Speech.
FlyerInHi
April 21, 2018 @
7:54 PM
The parody is very much on The parody is very much on point and quite funny.
I’ll let others decide for themselves but my takeaway from CARenter’s posts is that she blames Mexican kids, Prop 13, etc.. for pension shortfalls.
The real reasons for underfunded pensions are pension spending and promises. Change the laws to take back benefits and you solve the problems. As easy as that.
When convenient, CAr mentions funds and laws. But then she wants to take education funds to pay for municipal pensions.
PCinSD
April 22, 2018 @
2:46 PM
If you want to sue for If you want to sue for defamation, by all means, feel free to:
1) Spend your money on a lawyer to get a court order to compel Google and Microsoft to reveal the IP address. You will need to deal with the Google and Microsoft lawyers.
Even if you get a court order, you will need to pay Google and Microsoft’s cost to provide the information that you seek. I hear that software engineers can afford to buy nice houses in Silicon Valley, Seattle and also San Diego. So it will cost a pretty penny to send them on a fishing expedition.
2) Spend more money to compel the ISP to match the IP address to the account owner.
3) Spend yet more money to identify me. BTW, many people use an open WiFi connection.
4) Then spend more money to initiate the lawsuit.
I’m sure that you have enough money to feed the lawyers. Plus you’ll be stimulating the economy.
ucodegen
April 21, 2018 @
12:33 PM
CA renter wrote:
It’s true, I [quote=CA renter]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote][/quote]
Noted, sorry. an interesting pivot from the person’s earlier general statement. <snark>I presume you are a DoD hacker or some sort of expert black hat?</snark>
The way Piggington is set up, you can’t put in ‘active’ links that bring in cross site scripting elements nor external javascript – though I have really not tried to crack Piggington myself, nor won’t (I don’t defecate in the place one regularly visit, nor don’t pee in the water one drinks from).
Anonymous
April 22, 2018 @
6:31 AM
ucodegen wrote:
CA renter [quote=ucodegen]
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote]
Noted, sorry. an interesting pivot from the person’s earlier general statement. <snark>I presume you are a DoD hacker or some sort of expert black hat?</snark>
The way Piggington is set up, you can’t put in ‘active’ links that bring in cross site scripting elements nor external javascript – though I have really not tried to crack Piggington myself, nor won’t (I don’t defecate in the place one regularly visit, nor don’t pee in the water one drinks from).[/quote]
You seem to have a good understanding about how websites work.
CAR is claiming that I hacked into piggington specifically to access her webcam. It’s a pretty serious claim, as she’s accusing someone of a crime (probably a felony.)
But she hasn’t provided anything to support her claim that I am the culprit.
What would she need to show as evidence? Some kind of log? Would it have my name in it?
We know that CAR doesn’t make claims without supporting evidence. She certainly is not unhinged or paranoid. So she must have some pretty convincing evidence if she were going to make such a serious claim.
What do you think, ucodegen?
ucodegen
April 22, 2018 @
5:00 PM
harvey wrote:
You seem to [quote=harvey]
You seem to have a good understanding about how websites work.
CAR is claiming that I hacked into piggington specifically to access her webcam. It’s a pretty serious claim, as she’s accusing someone of a crime (probably a felony.)[/quote]
It is a serious claim, but whether it raises to the level of a felony is a different matter. It could be considered misdemeanor vandalism or stalking.
[quote=harvey]
But she hasn’t provided anything to support her claim that I am the culprit.
What would she need to show as evidence? Some kind of log? Would it have my name in it?
[/quote]Evidence is tricky. If she was running a system that monitors all packets coming through her router – it would be a strong start. They would show IP addresses that could be tracked back to the source account. If you are running a router, it will not be the IP address on your computer, but will likely be the address from your modem. She probably would not be able to id the person behind that IP address, but the packet capture record would be enough to force a warrant to go to that ISP to reveal the owner of that account. Most IP addresses on Cable and DSL modems are fairly static, and the ISP knows what the mapping is between the Modem’s MAC address and account at all times (so they can meter the data rate based on paid level of service and verify that the modem actually belongs to their customer). This is somewhat similar to how the police have dealt with pedophilic peeping toms – who manage to remotely turn on some young girl’s computer’s camera to watch.
[quote=harvey]We know that CAR doesn’t make claims without supporting evidence. She certainly is not unhinged or paranoid. So she must have some pretty convincing evidence if she were going to make such a serious claim.
What do you think, ucodegen?[/quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist. That was not my field of study.
Since you are moving sort of in the direction of liability, the statements also hinge on believablity on the part of the author. To that we can go to your past statements, as well as others as to whether such a statement might be believable and as to what the belief of yours and others on the voracity of this persons statements (on multiple subjects). Since you, FlyerInHi, etc do not hold CA renter’s statements with much regard (actually in some fact, with some contempt), it reduces any potential for claim of injury. Add to that, the fact that this person has been admittedly ‘Trolled’ by one that might claim injury, it might eliminate any potential claim.
It works similar to how the justice handles someone going up to a big guy and punching them. That person can not claim ‘assault’ if that big guy then turns around after the individual him them and ends up knocking out the person with one hit. – could also be seen as a legal variant of ‘unclean hands’.
Another aspect of liability due to statements is whether the person making the statement is considered an expert in the field they are making a claim about. I don’t think CA renter is a computer expert, forensic or otherwise. This provides a great deal of immunity to their statements.
Anonymous
April 22, 2018 @
5:21 PM
ucodegen wrote:Evidence is [quote=ucodegen]Evidence is tricky. If she was running a system that monitors all packets coming through her router – it would be a strong start. They would show IP addresses that could be tracked back to the source account. If you are running a router, it will not be the IP address on your computer, but will likely be the address from your modem. She probably would not be able to id the person behind that IP address, but the packet capture record would be enough to force a warrant to go to that ISP to reveal the owner of that account.[/quote]
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
I get what you are saying: Even if someone was hacked, there is no way anyone could know the person on the other end. Only the ISP would know, and they would not even investigate without a warrant.
In other words, CAR has no evidence whatsoever.
If she had evidence, she could call the cops instead of posting a butthurt survey on an obscure real-estate website.
[quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist.[/quote]
That’s unfortunate, because CAR really needs one.
ucodegen
April 23, 2018 @
12:05 PM
harvey wrote:
I get what you [quote=harvey]
I get what you are saying: Even if someone was hacked, there is no way anyone could know the person on the other end. Only the ISP would know, and they would not even investigate without a warrant.[/quote]
Actually, that is not what I said. I did not reveal all the ways to find out. I gave you ‘a’ way to find out that can be used by law enforcement – and preserves the evidence chain for prosecution. I also gave incomplete info of all the steps.
[quote=harvey]
In other words, CAR has no evidence whatsoever.
If she had evidence, she could call the cops instead of posting a butthurt survey on an obscure real-estate website.
[/quote]
It is most likely true that she has no evidence, only a hunch partially brought on by being targeted by trolling as well as a sparse knowledge of how computers and the internet works.
That said, if you do have computer and network expertise and did manage to pull off something like she claims, I wouldn’t rest easy. – Note: IMHO, I consider this last item a very very extreme far off possibility, partially because I saw and tracked the Google links in the Piggington web page.
Most people who have actually been hacked tend to flail around, not doing the things they should actually do. ie. use the Wayback machine to capture the image and refs in the web page in question (immediately), do a local capture of the webpage (save page as), get a person, preferably with law enforcement background to take a look ASAP.. and by all means, avoid giving a warning – let the hammer drop do the warning.
[quote=harvey]
[quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist.[/quote]
That’s unfortunate, because CAR really needs one.[/quote]
Is that your clinical opinion as someone with expertise of psychiatry or are you using safe harbor of no experience within the field?
FlyerInHi
April 23, 2018 @
12:19 PM
Whatever you say…. CAr has Whatever you say…. CAr has no evidence at all. She drawing conclusions out of paranoia and emotions. It would be less funny is she didn’t claim to be be facts based.
ucodegen
April 23, 2018 @
12:47 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:Whatever you [quote=FlyerInHi]Whatever you say…. CAr has no evidence at all. She drawing conclusions out of paranoia and emotions. It would be less funny is she didn’t claim to be be facts based.[/quote]
Umm, how is this any different than what I said? I also brought up issues of targeted trolling leading to potential paranoia coupled with lack of computer expertise. I did it in a way to clarify and defuse anger/paranoia/emotions.
How is your statement additive of clarative? It is more like the actions of a punk kid that went up to someone I had pinned to the ground for mall security and kicking the guy that I pinned in the ribs for no real reason. Just want to keep stirring the pot – eh?
CA renter
April 23, 2018 @
3:24 AM
ucodegen wrote:harvey [quote=ucodegen][quote=harvey]
You seem to have a good understanding about how websites work.
CAR is claiming that I hacked into piggington specifically to access her webcam. It’s a pretty serious claim, as she’s accusing someone of a crime (probably a felony.)[/quote]
It is a serious claim, but whether it raises to the level of a felony is a different matter. It could be considered misdemeanor vandalism or stalking.
[quote=harvey]
But she hasn’t provided anything to support her claim that I am the culprit.
What would she need to show as evidence? Some kind of log? Would it have my name in it?
[/quote]Evidence is tricky. If she was running a system that monitors all packets coming through her router – it would be a strong start. They would show IP addresses that could be tracked back to the source account. If you are running a router, it will not be the IP address on your computer, but will likely be the address from your modem. She probably would not be able to id the person behind that IP address, but the packet capture record would be enough to force a warrant to go to that ISP to reveal the owner of that account. Most IP addresses on Cable and DSL modems are fairly static, and the ISP knows what the mapping is between the Modem’s MAC address and account at all times (so they can meter the data rate based on paid level of service and verify that the modem actually belongs to their customer). This is somewhat similar to how the police have dealt with pedophilic peeping toms – who manage to remotely turn on some young girl’s computer’s camera to watch.
[quote=harvey]We know that CAR doesn’t make claims without supporting evidence. She certainly is not unhinged or paranoid. So she must have some pretty convincing evidence if she were going to make such a serious claim.
What do you think, ucodegen?[/quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist. That was not my field of study.
Since you are moving sort of in the direction of liability, the statements also hinge on believablity on the part of the author. To that we can go to your past statements, as well as others as to whether such a statement might be believable and as to what the belief of yours and others on the voracity of this persons statements (on multiple subjects). Since you, FlyerInHi, etc do not hold CA renter’s statements with much regard (actually in some fact, with some contempt), it reduces any potential for claim of injury. Add to that, the fact that this person has been admittedly ‘Trolled’ by one that might claim injury, it might eliminate any potential claim.
It works similar to how the justice handles someone going up to a big guy and punching them. That person can not claim ‘assault’ if that big guy then turns around after the individual him them and ends up knocking out the person with one hit. – could also be seen as a legal variant of ‘unclean hands’.
Another aspect of liability due to statements is whether the person making the statement is considered an expert in the field they are making a claim about. I don’t think CA renter is a computer expert, forensic or otherwise. This provides a great deal of immunity to their statements.[/quote]
Note that I said I suspected you of doing this; I did not claim as fact that you hacked my computer via Piggington.
Why did I make this statement? Because you have very intentionally and maliciously trolled me for years, and you’ve done so repeatedly without any provocation on my part. You have purposely used the quote feature to make it look like I’ve said things that were never stated by me — you’ve done this numerous times, even after I repeatedly told you to stop. You’ve intentionally and maliciously stated or implied (without using the quote feature) that I’ve said things that were never stated by me — again, you’ve done this numerous times. You’ve made extremely viscious posts in an attempt to attack and defame me without any provocation on my part. On multiple threads, you’ve disrupted the conversation and diverted the conversations into personal attacks against me. If anyone were to have reason to file a defamation lawsuit, it would be me.
When I commented about someone trying to access my camera and microphone via Piggington, you responded with very inappropriate and suspicous replies — comments that would not make sense if posted by innocent or “regular” posters.
You are a literal troll and, based on your posting history, the most obvious person who would try to access my camera and microphone through this site.
It’s true that I’m not a techie, but there is no doubt that someone tried to access my computer’s hardware via Piggington (as shown in the screen captures in the linked thread). You are the most obvious suspect (again, I said “suspect,” not that you did, in fact, hack my computer). One does not need hard evidence in order to suspect someone of committing a crime, they only need to show that there is a reason to suspect someone of committing a crime. You’ve provided plenty of reasons to suspect you of doing this.
Anonymous
April 23, 2018 @
7:40 AM
Lol, you aren’t accusing me, Lol, you aren’t accusing me, just stridently repeating that I’m the only suspect.
Out of the zillion ways your computer could have been reached, I’m the “obvious” choice because I hurt your pride and mocked your nonsense on an internet forum.
And the only evidence required is your mental gymnastics and need for attention.
ucodegen
April 23, 2018 @
12:37 PM
CA renter wrote:
Why did I [quote=CA renter]
Why did I make this statement? Because you have very intentionally and maliciously trolled me for years, and you’ve done so repeatedly without any provocation on my part. You have purposely used the quote feature to make it look like I’ve said things that were never stated by me — you’ve done this numerous times, even after I repeatedly told you to stop. You’ve intentionally and maliciously stated or implied (without using the quote feature) that I’ve said things that were never stated by me — again, you’ve done this numerous times. You’ve made extremely viscious posts in an attempt to attack and defame me without any provocation on my part. On multiple threads, you’ve disrupted the conversation and diverted the conversations into personal attacks against me. If anyone were to have reason to file a defamation lawsuit, it would be me.[/quote]
BTW harvey/pridk, if the above is true, this is where you might have real liability with respect to internet stalking and harassment. I even showed where someone was jailed for Trolling. The proof of any harassment, if it exists, is on Piggington and does not require a warrant to view. I gave links to some of what is happening in that field of internet stalking, trolling and harassment with respect to law enforcement.
I knew where you were going with some of your questions and that is why I worded my replies carefully but accurately. I got the feeling that you would try to use my statements as Trolling material against CA renter.
re: flu/this thread
It is funny unless you are a target, particularly of some forms of Trolling. CA renter has handled it incorrectly, sometimes getting a bit long winded and taking it personally instead of disengaging emotions and thinking about what is really happening when addressing statements and then taking the approach of addressing intent instead of specifics.
FlyerInHi
April 23, 2018 @
12:43 PM
ucodegen, your long winded ucodegen, your long winded posts are just deflection just like CAr’s
CAr said civil defamation above and somehow you relate her post to criminal harassment.
All I see is mocking and parody.
ucodegen
April 23, 2018 @
12:53 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:ucodegen, [quote=FlyerInHi]ucodegen, your long winded posts are just deflection just like CAr’s
CAr said civil defamation above and somehow you relate her post to criminal harassment.
All I see is mocking and parody.[/quote]
I guess you have a attention span problem. Your approach is deflection – mine is directly addressing and explaining. I responded to harvey, showing how she most likely had no proof, why she had no proof, what would be needed for proof, addressed harvey’s questions directly, showed where there is and isn’t liability. I also showed what L.E. would see, and what harvey might want to watch out for in terms of L.E.
Coronita
April 23, 2018 @
2:20 PM
ucodegen wrote:
re: flu/this [quote=ucodegen] re: flu/this thread
It is funny unless you are a target, particularly of some forms of Trolling. CA renter has handled it incorrectly, sometimes getting a bit long winded and taking it personally instead of disengaging emotions and thinking about what is really happening when addressing statements and then taking the approach of addressing intent instead of specifics.[/quote]
I’m not laughing at the CAR.
I’m laughing at all responses blowing this way out into left field, not at anyone one specific person. The moment this thread started and about 3-4 threads into it (and the other one about pensions), how would this thread end up other than they way it did?
Many of the threads started these days is just to stir up the pot. Why out of all the forums that exist all over internet, for example, do people choose to vent about politics, public policy, etc, here? Simple. Because anywhere else, the user(s) would have been banned a long time ago and those want eyeballs. I would think if trolling politics is really your thing, go camp out on Breitbart and piss off people there.
Anyway, it’s entertaining…almost as entertaining as posts on Nextdoor. miataturbo.net is not nearly as much fun to read. People get banned just for asking stupid questions, lol.
FlyerInHi
April 23, 2018 @
3:10 PM
So says the guy whose handle So says the guy whose handle is fat lazy union.
PCinSD
April 24, 2018 @
11:43 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:So says the [quote=FlyerInHi]So says the guy whose handle is fat lazy union.[/quote]
So says the guy who is a failed real estate blogger from San Diego who was banned from this site. And is a proven sexist, racist, elitist liar. Who, overnight became a pilot living in Honolulu, allthewhile claiming to live in Las Vegas, and owning mystery rental property in the ghetto. You have zero credibility.
FlyerInHi
April 24, 2018 @
12:04 PM
Yes, it’s all a figment of Yes, it’s all a figment of our imaginations….
Adaptable people move and do different things.
Besides, how do personal situations reflect on the veracity of certain statements? Sounds like ad hominem to me.
I could be a homeless person using Wi-Fi at Starbucks and it still wouldn’t negate the fact that there’s plenty of paranoia on this thread and some people can’t deal with having their feelings hurt.
ucodegen
April 24, 2018 @
1:24 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:So says the [quote=FlyerInHi]So says the guy whose handle is fat lazy union.[/quote]
[quote=FlyerInHi]All I see is mocking and parody.[/quote]
I thought you understood mocking and parody?? I guess you ‘forgot‘ some of the history in his ‘handle’.
ucodegen
April 24, 2018 @
1:22 PM
flu wrote:
Many of the [quote=flu]
Many of the threads started these days is just to stir up the pot. Why out of all the forums that exist all over internet, for example, do people choose to vent about politics, public policy, etc, here? Simple. Because anywhere else, the user(s) would have been banned a long time ago and those want eyeballs. I would think if trolling politics is really your thing, go camp out on Breitbart and piss off people there.
[/quote]
Unfortunately some posts are started just to stir the pot, others get trolled into stirring the pot. Discussions on pensions might be a useful, if it could be kept civil – however the discussion didn’t seem to want to stay that way.
[quote=flu]
Anyway, it’s entertaining…almost as entertaining as posts on Nextdoor. miataturbo.net is not nearly as much fun to read. People get banned just for asking stupid questions, lol.[/quote]
It could be seen as entertaining unless one wants an ‘adult’ conversation. As for your Eddie Murphy anim gif, kind of appropriate after looking how the discussion went from your quoted post (end page 1), or maybe the start of ‘Earnest goes to Camp’. Kind of reminds me of an animal wanting to go back to the middle of traffic after being moved to safety.
phaster
April 25, 2018 @
8:22 AM
ucodegen wrote:
Unfortunately [quote=ucodegen]
Unfortunately some posts are started just to stir the pot, others get trolled into stirring the pot. Discussions on pensions might be a useful, if it could be kept civil – however the discussion didn’t seem to want to stay that way.[/quote]
now that things seem to have settled down,… and since you mentioned “pensions” ya never did share your thoughts on,…
[quote=phaster][quote=ucodegen][quote=phaster]
WRT the matter @ hand,… California public pension recipients and politicians blame the markets and wall street bankers to rally the faithful. The scapegoating strategy mostly works! By beating up on other institutions this keeps supporters (and the general public) from focusing too closely on fact that politicians and public employee union officials created the financial problem.
FYI the same week the “pension” op-ed was in the paper, another math related story was in the news.
[quote]
Scripps Study (There’s A Chance Climate Change Can Wipe Out Humans By 2050)
As I see things, the op-ed illustrates an entitlement mentality that politicians and public employee union officials have about pensions. The root cause being the DELUSION they have, which is the math will somehow work!
[/quote]
That is a strange ‘pivot’. The problem is that math is ACTUALLY showing the AGW people wrong, and I don’t see any math in your references… but the AGW proponents don’t want to see the math, so they keep shouting that there is a consensus. Science does not use consensus – but politicians do.
Here is a little exercise WRT AGW. Build a table – MS eXcel helps. Down the left side – top 3 global warming gasses, downward strongest to weakest. Across the top, name of gas, chemical formula, atomic weight, relative global warming strength when compared to weakest of the 3, PPM on average (some of the gasses are highly variable) and finally weighted PPM using weakest gas as a basis. Fill in the table and take a look at the results.
The AGW proponents bring up that Roger Revelle showed that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, what they fail to mention is his warning about jumping to conclusions on CO2.
PS: I graduated from Revelle College, UCSD, I have met and talked with Roger Revelle a long time ago and I used to work at SIO a long time ago.
PPS: You can cheat and look the answers and numbers up when filling in the table.[/quote]
funny you mentioned revelle @ UCSD, he taught an undergrad seminar/thesis class that I took a year before he died
the class was offered/designed to expose undergrads on the science track (i.e. physics) to have an understanding of the policy side (i.e. political science) AND VICE VERSA
I was a undergrad double major, so figured (back then) it would be kinda neat to have the guy who started UCSD as an instructor to get his take on the two different POV
anyway during a discussion revelle mentioned the big unknown [AT THE TIME] was aerosols (i.e. water vapor AKA “clouds”) which varied albedo/reflectivity,… that in turn has an influence on the environment (i.e. temperature),… I also learned back then, math models are NOT perfect (i.e. always a work in progress)
some years after the class, read about the concept of “global dimming” matter of fact the same guy (Ramanathan) who wrote the recent scripps report (mentioned in the news)
when I mentioned “math” I was pondering the topic of “risk” w/ in the system (i.e. various knock on effects)
FWIW that is how I also approach “investing”
basically WRT the way public pension portfolios are managed and the way the scripps report presented itself, I see trouble ahead because I question the “margin of safety”
in other words there are huge downside consequence of mis-managing public pension portfolios (like wise w/ climate change),… as I see things various short term “gain” payoff(s) (for a select few) are an over all loser gamble (WRT “punishments”) in the long run[/quote]
Re: Global dimming, aerosols Re: Global dimming, aerosols etc.
I actually agree with many of the statements with respect to global dimming due to aerosols. There is also a greenhouse effect due to aerosols as well. Aerosols can also affect humidity and precipitation. The ‘real’ natural model is much more complex than the current ones being used. One of the problems I have with current analysis is the precept of a ‘run-away’. Most of the interactions I have been seeing are largely self regulating. One technique used in EE for finding a ‘runaway’ is to look in frequency domain on functions and look for poles (Laplace transforms).
re: CO2 greenhouse effect, if X% CO2 concentrations gives Y% ‘greenhouse effect’ – than 2X% of CO2 concentration does NOT give 2Y% of ‘greenhouse effect’, nor Y%^2. It gives approx Y%+(1-Y%)Y% of greenhouse effect within its spectral bands (you can’t block/absorb radiation has has already been blocked/absorbed by the first X%)
For the current anthropogenic greenhouse effect to ‘work’, it has to operate by feeding back through the ‘water’ channel. The greenhouse effect of CO2 is very weak, while that of water is fairly strong. There is a problem though. The thermal energy movement by water dwarfs any greenhouse effect induced the CO2 – ie, we are worried about 2℃ change in atmospheric temp when heat capacity of air is significantly less than the energy that a equivalent amount of water being evaporated and then condensed will move. This means that changes in water use on the surface of the planet will easily dwarf any CO2 induced climate change.
This could end up being a very long discussion – however bringing it up short, try looking at the thermodynamic side. If we burn fossil, or use nuclear – what happens to that energy when we are done with it? Remember – you can not create nor destroy energy, just transform it. Look at the amount of energy contained in the oil consumed in a year, convert to amount of energy(Calories, Joules – whatever) then look at atmospheric heat capacity as well as energy required to melt ice. Expand by amount of oil consumed, lets say for 30 years. Add in other fossils, nuclear.
Re: Pensions – second section of post & risk
Virtually all that I saw you post WRT pension portfolio risk and insufficient funding I agree with. However, I would not tie climate changes issues along the lines of pension fund risks. Pension fund risks are mathematically proven, however anthropogenic global warming is still a bit up in the air with a lot being done with ‘reconstruction’ and use of indirectly derived values as opposed to directly measured. NOTE: I always get suspicious when a term gets ‘rebranded’ ie anthropogenic global warming -> climate change.
PS: Have you tried building that table I suggested?
phaster
May 2, 2018 @
9:10 AM
ucodegen wrote:Re: Global [quote=ucodegen]Re: Global dimming, aerosols etc.
…This could end up being a very long discussion – however bringing it up short, try looking at the thermodynamic side.
Re: Pensions – second section of post & risk
Virtually all that I saw you post WRT pension portfolio risk and insufficient funding I agree with. However, I would not tie climate changes issues along the lines of pension fund risks. Pension fund risks are mathematically proven, however anthropogenic global warming is still a bit up in the air with a lot being done with ‘reconstruction’ and use of indirectly derived values as opposed to directly measured. NOTE: I always get suspicious when a term gets ‘rebranded’ ie anthropogenic global warming -> climate change.
PS: Have you tried building that table I suggested?[/quote]
over the years looked at various climate models, including an ocean heat sink model where thermal energy is absorbed by cooler ocean currents, blah, blah, blah,…
but in complex chaotic system have to agree w/ “non believers” (of risk to the planet such as Freeman Dyson a brilliant prominent physicist) that there isn’t an elegant math equation that perfectly describes climate change
basically climate models are more akin to a QM (quantum mechanics) problem, in that what is being calculated is a probability,… BUT unlike QM (which has an “elegant” wave equation as its basis),… various climate models are based on well informed educated guesses then its run thru a monte carlo simulation (in other words I’d be the first to acknowledge that any climate model is based on an uncertain guess how things will play out AND hopefully each iteration converges into something that reflects the complexity of the real world)
as I mentioned years ago revelle said he though the big unknown in climate change was “aerosols”
what you might find interesting is something else he said in passing about considering the big picture,… but first some context,… basically the class revelle taught undergrads @ UCSD was not directed at one specific major,.. like earth-science,… rather it was a pretty informal gathering of young knuckleheads pursuing various degrees, sitting around a table
anyway WRT the big picture of climate change, what I recall revelle mentioning is that we (students) were all bring different perspectives to the table,… so he wanted us to appreciate the various POV in order to grasp the enormity of the problem
basically back in the day I learned that CO2 absorbs some of the wavelengths that water vapor lets through AND if CO2 didn’t happen have the unique property of absorbing the infrared radiation “energy” that water vapor lets through,… THEN planets like venus w/ high atmospheric temperatures (and high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere) might only be a scientific curiosity (instead of possible glimpse of our planets future)
we know that temperatures will rise w/ increasing CO2 levels,… but the question always has been how fast or how high BECAUSE of the non-linearity of the system w/ complex feed back loops
FWIW I also took a basic circuits class which used various electrical components to model simple mechanical systems, so also wondered (back then) if it was possible to model the climate using a “circuits” approach AND the short answer was nope BECAUSE of the non-linearity of the system w/ complex feed back loops that are not all fully understood
[quote=Revelle and Suess, 1957] “. . . human beings are now carrying out a large scale geophysical experiment of a kind that could not have happened in the past nor be reproduced in the future. Within a few centuries we are returning to the atmosphere and oceans the concentrated organic carbon stored in sedimentary rocks over hundreds of millions of years. This experiment, if adequately documented, may yield a far-reaching insight into the processes determining weather and climate.”
[/quote]
given all the uncertainty, what revelle suggested (back when I took the course) is to look at trends/symptoms related to elevated CO2 levels
so over the years I’ve taken an interest in reports of increased CO2 levels and its effects on the system,… for example one report of elevated CO2 levels is leading toward a trend of ocean acidification which in turn effects shell fish reproduction
and FWIW seems damage to the eco system extends to other parts of the food chain,…
[quote]
The great nutrient collapse
The atmosphere is literally changing the food we eat, for the worse. And almost nobody is paying attention.
…Goldenrod, a wildflower many consider a weed, is extremely important to bees. It flowers late in the season, and its pollen provides an important source of protein for bees as they head into the harshness of winter. Since goldenrod is wild and humans haven’t bred it into new strains, it hasn’t changed over time as much as, say, corn or wheat. And the Smithsonian Institution also happens to have hundreds of samples of goldenrod, dating back to 1842, in its massive historical archive—which gave Ziska and his colleagues a chance to figure out how one plant has changed over time.
They found that the protein content of goldenrod pollen has declined by a third since the industrial revolution—and the change closely tracks with the rise in CO2. Scientists have been trying to figure out why bee populations around the world have been in decline, which threatens many crops that rely on bees for pollination. Ziska’s paper suggested that a decline in protein prior to winter could be an additional factor making it hard for bees to survive other stressors.
taken together, all the trends point towards an interesting question,…
[quote] Will Humans Survive the Sixth Great Extinction?
In the last half-billion years, life on Earth has been nearly wiped out five times—by such things as climate change, an intense ice age, volcanoes, and that space rock that smashed into the Gulf of Mexico 65 million years ago, obliterating the dinosaurs and a bunch of other species. These events are known as the Big Five mass extinctions, and all signs suggest we are now on the precipice of a sixth.
Except this time, we have no one but ourselves to blame. According to a study published last week in Science Advances, the current extinction rate could be more than 100 times higher than normal—and that’s only taking into account the kinds of animals we know the most about,…
if not,… the Drake Equation is an attempt to encapsulate all the variables that would be relevant to establishing the number of intelligent civilizations that existed in the Milky Way galaxy and which were broadcasting radio signals at this particular point in time
had the opportunity years ago to hang out w/ drake (and a few other space nuts from SETI) in iceland on a road trip of sorts,… and one of my interests for that little adventure was among other things to find out more about the Fermi paradox (i.e. the apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence and high probability estimates for the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations)
long story short, over the years I’m 99% certain that financial markets and corrupt/mismanaged instruments like public pension portfolios, collectively can act as a disruptive force to destroy the fabric of society (i.e. act like a “great filter” which is an idea put forth in the Fermi paradox)
Humans may not be able to Humans may not be able to deal with environmental collapse. Theoretically very difficult, if not impossible.
On the other hand, financial collapse can be dealt with some social engineering and reallocation of resources. Theoretically not that difficult.
ucodegen
May 3, 2018 @
7:06 PM
phaster wrote:basically back [quote=phaster]basically back in the day I learned that CO2 absorbs some of the wavelengths that water vapor lets through AND if CO2 didn’t happen have the unique property of absorbing the infrared radiation “energy” that water vapor lets through,…[/quote]
This is partially accurate. CO2 is a better absorber at certain radiant frequencies. Of concern was the frequency near 273K. This was a concern because it is near the current mean blackbody temperature of earth. The weak point though is that this particular absorption frequency is actually fairly narrow. It corresponds to the resonant frequency between the oxygen and carbon bonds in carbon dioxide (ie. how microwave ovens act on the resonant freq between oxygen and hydrogen in water). The best diagram of absorption bands that I have found so far is this one:
For those unfamiliar, left side is higher frequencies, higher energies, right side is lower frequencies and longer wavelengths. The red is what the sun gives us and makes its way onto the earth – note the ‘gaps’ created by water vapor absorption. The red curve is the blackbody radiation profile. Blue is the earth radiance profile, with the blue curves represent the blackbody radiation profile of specific blackbody temperatures. The purple one being the one closest to earth’s blackbody temperature. If the earth gets warmer, the curve will shift to the left. If you look at the absorption profile, moving to the left actually moves away from the core frequencies where carbon dioxide absorbs. Water in the form of droplets as opposed to a gas is not shown in the graph above, however it can be seen that the small drops of water in clouds act like micro-lenses that actually cause light to be reflected. The spectra that gets reflected runs from low UV through visible into high (shortwave) IR.
An interesting sidenote is that the earth will actually get hotter as the sun gets colder. This is because the blackbody temperature of the sun will move the radiance below what water droplets can reflect.
Monty Carlo simulations are a poor analog for climate modeling. Monty Carlo works best by applying probability and getting a deterministic discrete output. With Climate, we have a non-discrete input with probabilistic behavior and distribution, applying probabilistic behavior and getting non-discrete outputs. Ironically, something that might be just right for a quantum computer. Most of the models I have run across fudge the forcing just to get the model stable. Most like to rapidly spin down to a frozen earth.
[quote=phaster] THEN planets like venus w/ high atmospheric temperatures (and high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere) might only be a scientific curiosity (instead of possible glimpse of our planets future)
[/quote]
Venus is a red herring. Lets compare;
Earth – predominantly Nitrogen atmosphere(78%), with Oxygen at 21%, and way down there Carbon Dioxide at 0.04%(400ppm = 400/1,000,000 = 0.0004 = 0.04%).
Venus – predominantly Carbon Dioxide at 96% (960,000ppm), Nitrogen at about 3.5%, remaining totals less than 1%. There is no way earth can even get close to Venus’s CO2 concentration because of Earth’s 78% nitrogen.
Earth: Sun’s thermal forcing of Earth is approx 1,000watts per square meter (above atmosphere)
Venus: Sun’s thermal forcing of Venus is approx 2,000 watts per square meter – Venus orbits approx 40% closer to the sun.
Earth: Clouds on earth are comprised of water. Water absorbs heat closer to the earth’s surface and then condenses in the upper atmosphere, releasing up to 50% of their thermal energy into space as blackbody radiation.
Venus: Clouds are comprised of sulfuric acid. Solar radiation actually breaks apart the sulfuric acid with the resulting components absorbing the thermal energy. They then precipitate below the sulfuric cloud layer, recombining into sulfuric acid in an exothermic reaction, releasing heat below the sulfuric cloud layer
Earth: Atmospheric pressure on the surface of the Earth is 1 atmospheres(14.7 psi).
Venus: Atmosphere pressure on the surface of Venus is approx 90 atmospheres(1,323psi).
Earth: A day is 24 hours.
Venus: A day is 5,832 hours. Imagine how hot the surface of the earth would be if a day lasted that long, also consider the sun hits Venus with twice the amount of energy per square meter.
One really can’t use Venus as an potential analog to Earth under run-away global warming.
[quote=phaster]given all the uncertainty, what revelle suggested (back when I took the course) is to look at trends/symptoms related to elevated CO2 levels[/quote]
“Look before you leap – Drastic, precipitous—and, especially, unilateral—steps to delay the putative greenhouse impacts can cost jobs and prosperity and increase the human costs of global poverty, without being effective. Stringent economic controls now would be economically devastating particularly for developing countries…” Revelle 1992
[quote=phaster][quote]They found that the protein content of goldenrod pollen has declined by a third since the industrial revolution—and the change closely tracks with the rise in CO2.[/quote] [/quote]First year statistics students are warned that statistical correlation does not prove causation. Did they check for increased soil nitrogen due to increases in nitrous oxides? What about changes in precipitation?
NOTE: Did you try my suggested table with respect to global warming effect?
NOTE: Did you try the energy balance calcs wrt thermal energy being released through fossil and nuclear energy usage? Here is a hint on the thermodynamics hint I gave wrt to not being able to create nor destroy energy. When energy is applied to a system to put it into motion, and it is left run by itself until it comes to rest, all the energy that went into putting it into motion has been converted to heat. This means that all you need to do is look at the energy inputs on the system to see what the eventual thermal result is.
[quote=phaster]long story short, over the years I’m 99% certain that financial markets and corrupt/mismanaged instruments like public pension portfolios, collectively can act as a disruptive force to destroy the fabric of society (i.e. act like a “great filter” which is an idea put forth in the Fermi paradox)[/quote]Interesting statement. Considering the previous coverage on AGW, it would be interesting to consider motivation. Most people consider the motivations towards controlling CO2 to be altruistic, however there is a considerable amount of money behind it, particularly in the form of hedge funds. It is generally considered that the best possible long time returns are around what the S&P index funds return, which is between 10% to 13%. Most ‘aggressive’ funds want much more than that. Returns in the range of 10 years at 25% or more are only possible with large scale dynamic changes in economies (destroy or impact one and short it while benefiting another and going long there). Consider that the Kyoto Protocol does not put any restrictions on China nor India, and both of these countries have been major polluters in the past of both aerosols, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxides(acid rain) plus many heavy metals and poor water quality, it begs the question as to why and what is the real motivation for the Kyoto Protocol and the IPCC? In carbon dioxide alone, China is producing more than the US, Mexico, Canada, and all of Central and South America combined. China has also easily exceeded the US peak production of carbon dioxide by more than 25%. China’s emissions are currently increasing at 13+% per year, US is decreasing at 7% per year. India is increasing at 8.7% per year and almost exceeds all carbon dioxide production of Canada, Mexico and Central and South America combined, yet India is not impacted by Kyoto Protocol either.
If the environment was such a concern, why is it a fact that of nearly 7.7billion people on earth, more than 6 Billion dump untreated sewage into rivers, waterways and the ocean? Reo was processing less than 25% of its raw sewage at the time of the 2016 Olympics. The rest was dumped raw.
NOTE: I have seen claims of 50%, however an audit showed less than 25% with promises of it will be fixed soon.
NOTE: I have seen some quotes of only 1.6 Billion, however the actual number is closer 6 Billion. The US is approx 300 million, Europe is about 740 million, Japan 127 million, Taiwan is at about 24 million. Remove those and you are at 6.4 Billion. There is no large money to be made fixing this problem… so the big money is not interested.
My current theory on big money, is that they are now setting up to have India take over as the next growing market and starting to plan for the eventual collapse of China (NOTE: China’s debt is 2.5x GDP, the US is only about 1x GDP)
NOTE: I have heard of the Drake Equation, the problem with it is that it ‘fixes’ the level of tech for communication at the current level, looks primarily amount of intelligent signal produced. Right off the bat, true spread spectrum can’t be picked up as a readable signal. It looks like background noise (NOTE: I differentiate true spread spectrum as different from frequency hopping). Higher frequencies don’t always travel distances as well(bit energy is lower) – this was a problem with Pioneer as it moved further out. However, higher tech needs higher bandwidth. We are currently seeing a transition of data to fiber and cable. What if a higher tech planet communicates with entangle photons?
NOTE: Further on true spread spectrum – it was used during the Gulf War. News broadcasters on the ground, using receivers on the ground noticed a single tone followed by nothing. The tone was the sync, the ‘nothing’ was true spread spectrum signal. Unless you have the key, you can’t even pick up the signal to look at it.
phaster
May 4, 2018 @
6:34 AM
huh,… “questions” > huh,… “questions” > “answers”
might be time for me to revisit the topic to see if I bought into the global warming myth “long ago” (or perhaps not),… in any case should have selected my words more carefully when casually bring up venus which I’ll be the first to admit is vary different than earth in term of physical distance from the sun (i.e. < 1 AU), atmosphere made up of a majority of CO2, etc., hence the proverbial snow balls chance chance in hell earth is going to end up in the same "runaway" state w/ in the next 1,000,000 years
also have to admit frank drakes equation is dated given the fact that the equation was penned in 1961 (well before the Big Bang was validated and the Steady State model was disfavored) then there is the aspect you mentioned about ability to even detect a signal, given spread spectrum technology, blah, blab, blah,...
http://www.medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/the-drake-equation-is-broken-heres-how-to-fix-it-ae9466c3f53f
FWIW since we’re sorta discussing UCSD legions perhaps a discussion (or not) about Geoffrey Burbidge: Astrophysicist notorious for his rejection of the Big Bang theory
the idea of a quantum computer did cross my mind (long ago) which in theory given its ability to compute many states might be useful to see what effect the CO2 produced by humanity has on the planet,… DISCLOSURE the idea of building a computer like in the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy, also has crossed my mind
[quote=ucodegen]
“Look before you leap – Drastic, precipitous—and, especially, unilateral—steps to delay the putative greenhouse impacts can cost jobs and prosperity and increase the human costs of global poverty, without being effective. Stringent economic controls now would be economically devastating particularly for developing countries…” Revelle 1992
[/quote]
PS interesting quote ya brought up attributed to revelle,… had seen it long ago and wondered about it for many, many, many years THEN came across an interesting post that filled in some back parts of the story,… palace intrigue as they say (w/ lot$ of money on the line going to the $ide that win$)
perhaps you might find this unsettling,… but truth seems to be that revelle quote you shared is actually a misdirection!!!
yeah I know it might be hard to believe so for you or anyone else interested,… put together a “highlighted” PDF (on google doc’s) showing the article from which the quote is taken AND included the “back story” of players close to revelle (i.e. one of his grad students who helped revelle get around,… like to the seminar class I happened to take ‘back in the day,’… AND the other is a “article” based on stuff revelle’s daughter said)
anyway while putting this PDF together realized its kinda mentally unhealthy how much time this wastes,… (personally don’t want to end up like CArenter posting on an obscure san diego real estate forum in the wee hours of the morning and losing sleep over stuff), so for the record I’m going to bow out of going down this alice in wonderland rabbit hole
but before that happens thought I’d share a few thoughts on other stuff,…
[quote=ucodegen]
My current theory on big money, is that they are now setting up to have India take over as the next growing market and starting to plan for the eventual collapse of China (NOTE: China’s debt is 2.5x GDP, the US is only about 1x GDP).[/quote]
yup I’ve looked at how china has printed up trillion$ since 2008 to keep the party going,… yet have also known their one child policy (starting decades ago) is going to be an economic drag in the future
as I mentioned in a prior post,… I tend to be risk adverse and personally favor investments w/ a “margin of safety” AND overall hope things work out for humanity but have to wonder for its long term future (given various issues)
ucodegen
May 4, 2018 @
4:35 PM
phaster wrote:perhaps you [quote=phaster]perhaps you might find this unsettling,… but truth seems to be that revelle quote you shared is actually a misdirection!!! [/quote]I would not say misdirection. I would say caution on creating a bandwagon and jumping on it. With respect to some of the statements whether Revelle actually contributed to the article, Look at the statement “Revelle was hoodwinked in my view”. That is opinion. Second problem is the statement “I was forced by a SLAPP suit to retract my statements….Likely to prevail at trial because..” Is a bit disingenuous. Considering that funding for pro-AGW was and is still strong, it would have been easy to muster a defense and finances. PS: I tried to go to the references, which are indicated as links, but they don’t seem to work (correction – the red ones seem to work). Here is an interesting link on it that seems to indicate the so called SLAPP lawsuit was actually a defamation lawsuit against Lancaster. http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/0817939326_283.pdf see numbered page(not actual) 290, 291. Actual pages 8,9. The whole pdf is of interest though.
Revelle’s study was on carbon dioxide update in ocean waters being potentially slower than that initially thought. Another carbon dioxide sink has been misjudged. The uptake in carbon dioxide in plants seems to be faster than initially thought, and has accelerated with increased carbon dioxide (most commercial greenhouses would not have been surprised by this since they introduce carbon dioxide to the greenhouse to accelerate growth). Disagreeing with carbon dioxide being a primary climate driver does not mean that someone is against the environment, though the current climate on climate makes it that way. In the process environmentalism can get usurped and twisted to chase problems that may not be real or as critical as we thought and ignoring some very real problems in the process.
The reason I mentioned the greenhouse gas eXcel table is that the results, if done honestly and accurately makes a person sit back and go hummm.. I might post a snap of the table on this thread. Also take a look at the history of Owens valley and look at old pictures and current. Another one to look at is the history of the land at the foot of the San Bernardino mountains and the change in the mountain weather corresponding to changes in land usage at the foot of the mountains. Mill Creek used to have quite a bit of water coming down it, all the way into June and July. The turn off for Valley of the Falls and Service Road 1S08 used to be regularly washed out. Interesting side note: When the topic for best non-fictional came up and I was going to post. However, I saw where the it was headed and walked away. I would have hadded “the San Gabriels, the San Gabriels II amongst a few others.
[quote=phaster]anyway while putting this PDF together realized its kinda mentally unhealthy how much time this wastes,… (personally don’t want to end up like CArenter posting on an obscure san diego real estate forum in the wee hours of the morning and losing sleep over stuff), so for the record I’m going to bow out of going down this alice in wonderland rabbit hole [/quote]That is why you sometimes see me disappear from this board. Sometimes it is about choosing between this board and the nice weather outside, a good hike, beautiful sunset, friends, time doing what couples do.. etc. I like it for opening the mind, but keeping the discussion on the constructive/informative does take time – much more time than just popping off.
[quote=phaster]yup I’ve looked at how china has printed up trillion$ since 2008 to keep the party going,… yet have also known their one child policy (starting decades ago) is going to be an economic drag in the future[/quote]
I think they have eased their one child policy, however I think there may be a bigger psychological issue with the one child policy. It creates a nation with many ‘little emperors’, all wanting to be in charge and have it easy. A Chinese couples one child is precious and tends to be pampered. This tends to create a ‘brittle’ personality which is volatile when confronted or contradicted.
[quote=phaster]overall hope things work out for humanity but have to wonder for its long term future (given various issues)[/quote]Same here, though my biggest worry has been on the current nature of discussions where extreme positions on both sides gets more attention than reasoned discussion. I also deplore the current state of ad-hominem attacks in lieu of discourse. In my mind’s eye, I see the current MSM and fringe sitting at the side after helping to stir the pot – yelling fight-fight-fight.
CA renter
April 27, 2018 @
7:09 AM
flu wrote:ucodegen wrote:
re: [quote=flu][quote=ucodegen] re: flu/this thread
It is funny unless you are a target, particularly of some forms of Trolling. CA renter has handled it incorrectly, sometimes getting a bit long winded and taking it personally instead of disengaging emotions and thinking about what is really happening when addressing statements and then taking the approach of addressing intent instead of specifics.[/quote]
I’m not laughing at the CAR.
I’m laughing at all responses blowing this way out into left field, not at anyone one specific person. The moment this thread started and about 3-4 threads into it (and the other one about pensions), how would this thread end up other than they way it did?
Many of the threads started these days is just to stir up the pot. Why out of all the forums that exist all over internet, for example, do people choose to vent about politics, public policy, etc, here? Simple. Because anywhere else, the user(s) would have been banned a long time ago and those want eyeballs. I would think if trolling politics is really your thing, go camp out on Breitbart and piss off people there.
Anyway, it’s entertaining…almost as entertaining as posts on Nextdoor. miataturbo.net is not nearly as much fun to read. People get banned just for asking stupid questions, lol.[/quote]
I can tell you why this site has more political discussions than a car thread, etc. It’s because economics (the housing market is a component of the economy, and Rich’s site has “econo-almanac” in its name) and politics are inextricably intertwined. One doesn’t really exist without the other.
Let’s face it, politics affect every single thing in our lives — the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the shampoos and soaps we use (are they poisonous or not?), the housing structures we live in, the job market and how it’s structured, how money and power are allocated, healthcare, retirement, etc., etc. It’s all politics.
In order to avoid politics, you have to ignore how the system operates and only focus on the superficial parts (like just watching sports or movies for fun, without thinking about tax policies for these industries, or how they are used to shape our social narrative, etc.).
svelte
April 27, 2018 @
7:32 AM
CA renter wrote:
I can tell [quote=CA renter]
I can tell you why this site has more political discussions than a car thread, etc. It’s because economics (the housing market is a component of the economy, and Rich’s site has “econo-almanac” in its name) [/quote]
The automotive industry is also a component of the economy.
[quote=CA renter]
Let’s face it, politics affect every single thing in our lives — the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the shampoos and soaps we use (are they poisonous or not?),
[/quote]
And by your own admission above, politics affects every single thing in our lives. That would include the automotive industry.
So you argued both sides of the argument in this post – that the housing market is tied to politics but cars aren’t, and that both the housing market and cars are tied to politics. Pick a side!
CA renter
April 27, 2018 @
7:58 AM
svelte wrote:CA renter [quote=svelte][quote=CA renter]
I can tell you why this site has more political discussions than a car thread, etc. It’s because economics (the housing market is a component of the economy, and Rich’s site has “econo-almanac” in its name) [/quote]
The automotive industry is also a component of the economy.
[quote=CA renter]
Let’s face it, politics affect every single thing in our lives — the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the shampoos and soaps we use (are they poisonous or not?),
[/quote]
And by your own admission above, politics affects every single thing in our lives. That would include the automotive industry.
So you argued both sides of the argument in this post – that the housing market is tied to politics but cars aren’t, and that both the housing market and cars are tied to politics. Pick a side![/quote]
Fair enough. 🙂 One can discuss housing in terms of granite countertops, number of bedrooms, layout, design, etc. But since housing is a much bigger part of a person’s economic life, we do tend to pay more attention to the long-term effects of housing on our economic life. Additionally, where we live affects so much in our lives — whether the neighborhood is clean, safe, convenient to transportation (and types of transportation), schools, parks, self-perception (moreso than cars, IMHO), etc. Politics affects all of these things, and more. People tend to get much more involved when politics affect their housing values, quality of life, etc.; they tend to go a bit deeper into the subject.
People usually just pay attention to the economic side of the car issue when they initially purchase a car. They usually don’t spend as much time worrying about depreciation, etc. Most people (not car buffs) focus more on the superficial aspect of car ownership, a bit like the sports/entertainment part of my post.
But the roads, smog laws, interest rates/financing options, etc. are all very political, and my guess would be that these issues are indeed discussed on many car sites/blogs. Perhaps those are the people who are getting banned from these sites?
FlyerInHi
April 27, 2018 @
8:21 AM
This survey doesn’t make any This survey doesn’t make any sense.
If we’re to stand on principles, it should not be a popularity contest.
CAr, it’s is pretty nutty to believe that you were targeted. That’s why you easily believe in conspiracies. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s
CA renter
April 27, 2018 @
8:50 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:This survey [quote=FlyerInHi]This survey doesn’t make any sense.
If we’re to stand on principles, it should not be a popularity contest.
CAr, it’s is pretty nutty to believe that you were targeted. That’s why you easily believe in conspiracies. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s[/quote]
The poll wasn’t based on a popularity contest. Let me state this once again: The issue was Pri’s regular habit of claiming that people said things that they never said — and he would often use the quote feature to fill in his words to make it look like someone else had written a particular statement (always to defame the other poster).
It was always about principles. There is nothing nutty about it, and your repeatedly asserting your nonsensical opinions about conspiracy theories isn’t bolstering your case.
njtosd
April 29, 2018 @
4:26 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:….. It [quote=FlyerInHi]….. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s[/quote]
This thread and others would suggest he speaks from experience.
FlyerInHi
April 30, 2018 @
10:12 AM
njtosd wrote:FlyerInHi [quote=njtosd][quote=FlyerInHi]….. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s[/quote]
This thread and others would suggest he speaks from experience.[/quote]
Yes, other people’s experiences.
I’m determined to avoid the pitfalls of aging. That begins with being adaptable and young at heart. I’m more adaptable as time goes by. i don’t get attached to house or a certain way of life. .
phaster
April 22, 2018 @
7:46 AM
interesting vote interesting vote result(s),… anyone else note this kinda mirrors the political divide of the nation
since I have not voted, have to ask what is a vote worth?
figure this is an opportunity to conduct an economic experiment of sorts (based on something flu posted awhile ago,…) AND raise money for charity
[quote=flu]
July 17, 2016 – 10:14pm
Man, remind me never to hang out with folks like you. It’s not that I don’t value actual insight, positive or negative. I do. It’s just I don’t understand some of you that are so fixated with your beliefs that you can’t really think objectively in the only thing that matters…. “How can I make money?”
Man, remind me never to hang out with folks like you. It’s not that I don’t value actual insight, positive or negative. I do. It’s just I don’t understand some of you that are so fixated with your beliefs that you can’t really think objectively in the only thing that matters…. “How can I make money?”
The quote above just shows how narrow minded some people are. Making money has nothing to do with beliefs. The owner of occidental pretroleum was a communist who later supported republicans. You don’t need to give up your money to believe in social equity. In fact, we all need to make money. The more money we have the better we can advance our goals whatever they may be.
People who say “give up your money if you believe in higher taxes” are just intellectually challenged.
phaster
April 20, 2018 @
8:08 PM
huh,… FWIW
sdgrrl huh,… FWIW
[quote=sdgrrl]
August 11, 2016 – 10:25pm
…I think a majority of members on Rick’s site think they are more intelligent than most of the population, sophisticated with money and knowledgeable about political and global issues.
This often creates a clash of egos, and alpha personalities start coming out.
but the clashing “personality types” AND “drama” distraction(s)
[quote=CA renter]
April 20, 2018 – 3:16am
…Pri has, once again, intentionally and maliciously attempted to make it look like I said something, via the quote feature, that was never stated.
…I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington
[/quote]
does nothing to change the basic fact,
[quote=FlyerInHi]
CArenter likes to mention the intricacies of municipal finances when convenient. However, according to her, if we just get rid of Prop 13 and Mexican kids, the money will somehow flow directly to pension funds.
Of course, it’s all about protecting the benefits of retirees,…
[quote=phaster][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=CA renter]For the record, California’s high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.
And since you’re so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?[/quote]
You just obviated any argument to repeal prop 13. If the lost billions have been made up, a repeal of prop 13 would amount to a huge tax increase. No way Jose.[/quote]
sigh,… let’s all take another walk down memory lane
[quote=CA renter]
September 4, 2014 – 6:04pm
I don’t get distracted by non-economic issues where politics are concerned. That’s not to say that these issues are unimportant, but that they pale in comparison to economics.
[/quote]
[quote=CA renter]
October 1, 2014 – 9:23pm
Yes, I’ve been following the pension issue for many, many years (far, far, far longer than you have), and I have also worked with negotiating committees and have done research for public employee unions.
for the record, have to say the inability to recognize basic middle school math concepts and their importance as it relates to managing money, sadly isn’t an isolated case,… seems there is a pandemic of being morally and intellectually bankrupt (i.e. dishonest and dumb) WRT basic finance,… perhaps the root cause is some kind of political self interest???
having said my piece, now let’s go back and review (yet again) the basic math concepts which are key to understanding the local pension portfolio “mismanagement”
for three decades plus, the local public pension portfolio custodians (i.e. politicians) have allowed giving away a 13th pension payment (off balance sheet),… basically this is akin to a 13th mortgage payment on a property (which shortens the pay off period and decreases the over-all interest paid), BUT in this case things work in reverse,… in other words the pension debt obligation will increase over time
compounding this basic middle school math “error” is public employ leadership (i.e. public pension recipients) who see no problem w/ not requiring fully funding the portfolio,… this action basically is akin to only paying a “minimum credit card payment” but its important to note that things here are happening on a SUPER SIZED scale!!!
AND let’s not forget we are where we are because those responsible for causing this money management mess are basically morally and intellectually challenged (i.e. dishonest and dumb)
bottom line,… given the “California rule” which implies the tax payers are the designated financial backstop for this whole mess,… means eventually there are some serious consequences for local residents AND if the problem(s) is widespread perhaps it might have serious consequences for civilization as a whole,…
PS one last general observation,… the background knowledge needed to model something as complex/chaotic as climate change or the economy, requires deep knowledge of various fields of study along w/ a basic understanding of how things interact,… what I find ironic is more often than not is politicians and various activists who claim leadership roles,… have in fact the least background knowledge that is required to understand the big picture
I would go for ban if it I would go for ban if it turns out they are the same individual shilling as separate posters. There is a way to tell – I can show Rich T. (outside of word structure, use of words etc – analysis). It is done at the web server, does not use cookies and does not rely on IP addr. The signal/noise ratio has been very low from these posters. I don’t like the idea of a ban, but shilling as different individuals corrupts the structure of discourse by creating the ability to ‘snowjob’ another poster by creating what looks like posts supportive of a position from different posters – who in actuality are the same poster.
FlyerInHi
April 20, 2018 @
1:41 PM
ucodegen wrote:I would go for [quote=ucodegen]I would go for ban if it turns out they are the same individual shilling as separate posters. There is a way to tell – I can show Rich T. (outside of word structure, use of words etc – analysis). It is done at the web server, does not use cookies and does not rely on IP addr. The signal/noise ratio has been very low from these posters. I don’t like the idea of a ban, but shilling as different individuals corrupts the structure of discourse by creating the ability to ‘snowjob’ another poster by creating what looks like posts supportive of a position from different posters – who in actuality are the same poster.[/quote]
That would be like creating a fictitious identity to represent oneself as one’s own agent and/or supporter. To make believe that there is a third party giving an objective viewpoint. Yeah, a person like that is definitely a slime ball.
Coronita
April 21, 2018 @
7:03 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:
That would [quote=FlyerInHi]
That would be like creating a fictitious identity to represent oneself as one’s own agent and/or supporter. To make believe that there is a third party giving an objective viewpoint. Yeah, a person like that is definitely a slime ball.[/quote]
Yeah, like creating a brand new handle so one can continue to post on piggington, after being banned by Rich with one’s first handle…right Briansd?
rotflol
Anonymous
April 21, 2018 @
7:04 AM
flu wrote:FlyerInHi [quote=flu][quote=FlyerInHi]
That would be like creating a fictitious identity to represent oneself as one’s own agent and/or supporter. To make believe that there is a third party giving an objective viewpoint. Yeah, a person like that is definitely a slime ball.[/quote]
Yeah, like creating a brand new handle so one can continue to post on piggington, after being banned by Rich with one’s first handle…right Briansd?
rotflol[/quote]
Whatever happened to Fat Lazy Union?
That guy was a hoot!
Anonymous
April 20, 2018 @
2:25 PM
Uh, you guys do know that Uh, you guys do know that gogo has posted a total of five times, ever? (Including the response to this thread.)
And I’d love to hear how I hacked into someone’s webcam through a real estate blog. I’ll need someone with some tech skills to explain how I pulled off that trick.
(BTW, does accusing another poster of a serious crime without a shred of evidence “corrupt the structure of discourse”?)
But let the accuser explain how she is so sure of her claims.
Be a good Pigg, and bring some data.
ucodegen
April 20, 2018 @
6:50 PM
harvey wrote:
And I’d love to [quote=harvey]
And I’d love to hear how I hacked into someone’s webcam through a real estate blog. I’ll need someone with some tech skills to explain how I pulled off that trick.[/quote]
Harvey, you may have skipped a dose on your meds. CA renter never said that ‘you‘ hacked their Email. CA renter said ‘someone’. proof:
[quote=CA renter](And it might just be a coincidence, but someone has tried to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington. I do *not* believe that it is Rich.)[/quote]
Comment number 280690 on the ‘Countering Disinformation And Propagation Act’ thread – bottom of their comment. The direct links to comments don’t work, however it would be the 3rd comment down on the 5th page.
I was aware of that same problem and had tracked it down to Google’s advertisement services and ‘Search’, which can include voice activated/controlled search. If you look through the HTML for the pages, you will see the call to googlesyndication.com (for advertisement) and google.com (for search function). I didn’t say anything at the time because Rich T. had it handled before I had time to construct a reply.
Anonymous
April 20, 2018 @
6:57 PM
dup dup
svelte
April 21, 2018 @
1:14 AM
You all do realize this is an You all do realize this is an insignificant thread in a back alley cob-webbed corner of the internet.
Right?
Coronita
April 21, 2018 @
6:55 AM
With this much drama, I had
With this much drama, I had to check I wasn’t visiting miataturbo.net!
Anonymous
April 21, 2018 @
7:00 AM
Yes, we serve popcorn at Yes, we serve popcorn at piggington webcam cinemas!
Coronita
April 21, 2018 @
7:11 AM
I am sorry Harvey, are you I am sorry Harvey, are you saying something?
It seems I only see your handle, but can’t see any text underneath it.
Was it about engineering minimum wage?
no wait….. pensions, must be about pensions….
no wait….. Donald Trump?????
no wait….I know i know ALT right religious right…
no wait, about progressives are so much more
enlightened and refined….oh sorry, that’s Brian….
lololol
Anonymous
April 21, 2018 @
7:24 AM
(No subject)
Coronita
April 21, 2018 @
7:23 AM
I don’t know why people talk I don’t know why people talk about banning on this website.
First, most people have already left.
Second, there is an ignore button.
The sort of vitriolic posts is exactly the sort of forum that probably the remaining majority of frequent posters want.
But here these days, at least, it’s cheaper than picking up a copy of the National Enquirer and it’s an abridged version of the Jerry Springer show.
Miss you AN, sdrealtor, SD Realtor, cdmaengineer, etc etc etc.
I guess all good things eventually come to an end… kinda like both Audi and Porsche pulling out of the 24 hours of LeMans.
Coronita
April 21, 2018 @
7:30 AM
Sorry Harvey, you are going Sorry Harvey, you are going to have to speak looooouder and sloooooweer….
I still can’t hear you….must be my old age …..
What’s that about Donald Trump?????
Anonymous
April 21, 2018 @
7:35 AM
No, I just post every hour No, I just post every hour the stock market is down.
We should be happy right?
Coronita
April 22, 2018 @
11:05 AM
. .
Coronita
April 22, 2018 @
10:54 PM
This thread….. This thread…..
njtosd
April 23, 2018 @
12:54 PM
Leaving aside the thing about Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” I should do it in needlepoint on a pillow :). Harvey is a mean guy – no point in wasting your breath.
FlyerInHi
April 23, 2018 @
1:16 PM
njtosd wrote:Leaving aside [quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone [/quote]
Can you really leave that aside? That goes to the crux of this thread, CAr’s frame of mind. Perhaps she feels targeted but it’s all mocking and parody.
If I recall, CAr has criticized monorities who get easily offended. And now she wants to carve out her own safe space.
Anonymous
April 23, 2018 @
2:15 PM
njtosd wrote:Leaving aside [quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” I should do it in needlepoint on a pillow :). Harvey is a mean guy – no point in wasting your breath.[/quote]
Lol, “Leaving aside the absurd lies in the accusation…”
But point taken. We just need to stop being “mean” and start making bizarre unfounded accusations in order to restore the decorum.
Of course that’s not how ethical behavior works. We don’t get to “leave aside” the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room.
Oh, since you just called me a name – an actual ad hominem, I better check my webcam logs…
CA renter
April 24, 2018 @
6:31 AM
harvey wrote:njtosd [quote=harvey][quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” I should do it in needlepoint on a pillow :). Harvey is a mean guy – no point in wasting your breath.[/quote]
Lol, “Leaving aside the absurd lies in the accusation…”
But point taken. We just need to stop being “mean” and start making bizarre unfounded accusations in order to restore the decorum.
Of course that’s not how ethical behavior works. We don’t get to “leave aside” the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room.
Oh, since you just called me a name – an actual ad hominem, I better check my webcam logs…[/quote]
You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. My suspicions are not at all unfounded.
But you’ve done, yet again, what you always do…diverted attention from the main issue being discussed. What caused me to start this thread wasn’t the camera/mic thing, but the fact that you regularly, intentionally, and maliciously misquote other posters, and you regularly state (without the quote feature) that they’ve said things that were never said. Abusing the quote feature in the manner that you do is totally unethical and inexcusable; some would argue that it’s illegal because of the clear intent to defame innocent posters. You’ve seriously degraded the quality of interactions on this site and caused many good posters to leave. This, in itself, is why you should be banned.
Anonymous
April 24, 2018 @
6:43 AM
CA renter wrote:You’re the [quote=CA renter]You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. [/quote]
Another ad hominem. Typical.
But there is a bigger concern.
Someone reversed the direction of the toilet paper roll in my master bathroom.
I suspect it was CAR because she has been attacking me lately, and even went so far as starting a thread to have me banned. Her reactions to my posts have been very hostile and odd.
I always load the toilet paper as an “under” – but yesterday after my morning piggington read and coffee, nature called me into the toilet where I found this:
If there was some random serial TP flipper (not sure of correct terminology here) out there, then wouldn’t everyone else see their TP reversed? I would like to know if other people have seen their TP flipped. If everyone else has the same issue, then that would indicate that I was not specifically targeted.
But if nobody else (or most others) didn’t have this toilet paper issue, would it not seem logical that I was specifically targeted? If so, by whom? It’s not at all paranoid to want to find out who’s responsible. I’ve outlined clearly why CAR would be the first one to suspect from my end.
There is no paranoia here. Someone did actually flip the TP in my master bathroom– the photo/evidence is posted right here. It is also important to note that I have NEVER given any person permission to access my master bathroom, and have always locked the door when taking a dump.
ucodegen
April 24, 2018 @
1:33 PM
harvey wrote:
Someone [quote=harvey]
Someone reversed the direction of the toilet paper roll in my master bathroom.
I suspect it was CAR because she has been attacking me lately, and even went so far as starting a thread to have me banned. Her reactions to my posts have been very hostile and odd.[/quote] Damn, now I know where my Tesseract went.
CA renter
April 24, 2018 @
7:07 AM
Here you go, yet again.
CA Here you go, yet again.
[quote=CA renter]
You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. My suspicions are not at all unfounded.
But you’ve done, yet again, what you always do…diverted attention from the main issue being discussed. What caused me to start this thread wasn’t the camera/mic thing, but the fact that you regularly, intentionally, and maliciously misquote other posters, and you regularly state (without the quote feature) that they’ve said things that were never said. Abusing the quote feature in the manner that you do is totally unethical and inexcusable; some would argue that it’s illegal because of the clear intent to defame innocent posters. You’ve seriously degraded the quality of interactions on this site and caused many good posters to leave. This, in itself, is why you should be banned.[/quote]
Anonymous
April 24, 2018 @
7:15 AM
CA renter wrote:You’re the [quote=CA renter]You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri.[/quote]
Coronita
April 23, 2018 @
2:19 PM
njtosd wrote:Leaving aside [quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” [/quote]
lol
Coronita
April 23, 2018 @
3:13 PM
lol give the number of lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….
FlyerInHi
April 23, 2018 @
3:53 PM
flu wrote:lol give the number [quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.
CA renter
April 24, 2018 @
6:21 AM
If someone tried to access my If someone tried to access my camera and microphone via some Google script (not sure of correct terminology here) on Piggington, then wouldn’t everyone else be able to see this on their computers? I would like to know if other people have seen this on their computers. If everyone else has the same issue, then that would indicate that I was not specifically targeted.
But if nobody else (or most others) didn’t have this camera/mic issue, would it not seem logical that I was specifically targeted? If so, by whom? It’s not at all paranoid to want to find out who’s responsible. I’ve outlined clearly why Pri would be the first one to suspect from my end.
There is no paranoia here. Someone did try to access my microphone and camera via Piggington — the screen capture/evidence is posted on the other thread. It is also important to note that I have NEVER given any program or person permission to access my camera/mic, and have always blocked any kind of remote access to my computer.
FlyerInHi
April 24, 2018 @
9:59 AM
CA renter wrote:
There is no [quote=CA renter]
There is no paranoia here. Someone did try to access my microphone and camera via Piggington — the screen capture/evidence is posted on the other thread. It is also important to note that I have NEVER given any program or person permission to access my camera/mic, and have always blocked any kind of remote access to my computer.[/quote]
There is plenty of paranoia.
Trust me, there was never anyone via Piggington. Some script was running and that was reported by whatever program you’re using. Pretty simple, really.
Also, if you use or have ever used Kaperski, the Russians are probably on to you. And they will never let go. Be careful.
ucodegen
April 24, 2018 @
1:26 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:flu wrote:lol [quote=FlyerInHi][quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.[/quote]
Umm, I do computers – not biology, so I don’t know much about nerves. Therefore I really can’t assess the quoted ‘this‘ post above.
FlyerInHi
April 24, 2018 @
3:34 PM
ucodegen wrote:FlyerInHi [quote=ucodegen][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.[/quote]
Umm, I do computers – not biology, so I don’t know much about nerves. Therefore I really can’t assess the quoted ‘this‘ post above.[/quote]
Ucodegen, computer wise, if one ignores posters, can one see responses to one’s posts?
ucodegen
April 25, 2018 @
10:37 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:ucodegen [quote=FlyerInHi][quote=ucodegen][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.[/quote]
Umm, I do computers – not biology, so I don’t know much about nerves. Therefore I really can’t assess the quoted ‘this‘ post above.[/quote]
Ucodegen, computer wise, if one ignores posters, can one see responses to one’s posts?[/quote]
Yes, including the ignored poster’s posts. Remember Rich changed the web engine on Piggington a while back and it does not completely/or correctly hide ignored posts. For a while it looked like it was fixed, but now it seems to be ‘un’fixed. – is that what you are talking about?
Coronita
April 24, 2018 @
9:02 AM
(No subject)
Rich Toscano
April 25, 2018 @
9:57 PM
Some quick thoughts, first on
Some quick thoughts, first on the camera thing:
– It has now been confirmed to my satisfaction that it has to do with Google ads and/or search (see: https://piggington.com/ot_should_pridkharveygogogosandiego_be_banned#comment-280741 ) — thank you ucodegen
– For the record there is no way an individual piggington user could do this. Unless they are admins (of which I am the only one), or they’ve somehow hacked the site (doesn’t seem like a good use of time), all they can post is comments and forum topics, and those only allow a limited set of html tags for formatting.
Onto the main topic. Again, random thoughts:
– This type of thread seems to pop up from time to time but, for what it’s worth (as far as I can remember anyway), they have no impact on who actually gets banned.
– Also: pretty much nobody gets banned. This site has just one rule (no political threadjacks). I had to ban a few regular violators back in the day but it’s been a while.
– One such violator came back as FlyerInHI; I let him stay. I question this decision on a routine basis. But he’s pretty well behaved now so I have gone with the flow so far.
– As far as harvey is concerned, yes, he is combative and can be mean-spirited. But also he is smart and funny and posts a lot of interesting comments. He has never broken the no threadjack rule. Yeah, I wish he were nicer to people, but I don’t feel it’s right to ban him.
– In general I don’t want to ban people for their personality traits. (Boy, that would be a slippery slope on this forum).
– I don’t want to ban people at all, really. That’s probably obvious at this point.
– CA Renter will argue passionately about her views, but she is really an extremely nice person. So, be nice to her, even if you disagree with her.
– Everyone be nice to everyone! It’s just not that hard.
– That is not some new forum rule (which would be miserable to try to enforce). Just a request and maybe a not-so-bad rule of thumb.
Carry on…
Anonymous
April 26, 2018 @
6:31 AM
Rich Toscano wrote:Some quick [quote=Rich Toscano]Some quick thoughts, first on the camera thing:
– It has now been confirmed to my satisfaction that it has to do with Google ads and/or search (see: https://piggington.com/ot_should_pridkharveygogogosandiego_be_banned#comment-280741 ) — thank you ucodegen
– For the record there is no way an individual piggington user could do this. Unless they are admins (of which I am the only one), or they’ve somehow hacked the site (doesn’t seem like a good use of time), all they can post is comments and forum topics, and those only allow a limited set of html tags for formatting.
Onto the main topic. Again, random thoughts:
– This type of thread seems to pop up from time to time but, for what it’s worth (as far as I can remember anyway), they have no impact on who actually gets banned.
– Also: pretty much nobody gets banned. This site has just one rule (no political threadjacks). I had to ban a few regular violators back in the day but it’s been a while.
– One such violator came back as FlyerInHI; I let him stay. I question this decision on a routine basis. But he’s pretty well behaved now so I have gone with the flow so far.
– As far as harvey is concerned, yes, he is combative and can be mean-spirited. But also he is smart and funny and posts a lot of interesting comments. He has never broken the no threadjack rule. Yeah, I wish he were nicer to people, but I don’t feel it’s right to ban him.
– In general I don’t want to ban people for their personality traits. (Boy, that would be a slippery slope on this forum).
– I don’t want to ban people at all, really. That’s probably obvious at this point.
– CA Renter will argue passionately about her views, but she is really an extremely nice person. So, be nice to her, even if you disagree with her.
– Everyone be nice to everyone! It’s just not that hard.
– That is not some new forum rule (which would be miserable to try to enforce). Just a request and maybe a not-so-bad rule of thumb.
Carry on…[/quote]
Rich,
The camera accusation really is the main topic. It goes far beyond the issue of politeness and decorum.
She specifically accused me of making a concerted effort to violate her personal privacy (without even a hint of evidence connecting it to anybody in particular.)
Arguing passionately is one thing, but do you believe someone crosses a line when they make unfounded accusations of creepy criminal behavior?
I’m not asking you to do anything about it. I understand we can safely dismiss these accusations as benign hysterics. (It may have been a ploy to get you to expose my identity, but I was not worried that anyone would fall for such a lame social engineering trick.)
But whatever the motivation, it sure as hell is not the actions of a “nice person.”
Rich Toscano
April 26, 2018 @
8:24 AM
You can believe nutty things
You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.
Anonymous
April 26, 2018 @
4:06 PM
Rich Toscano wrote:You can [quote=Rich Toscano]You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.[/quote]
I agree.
But of course my question was about unfounded personal accusations. There’s a material difference.
Despite the fact that I’ve once again trounced CAR in debate, her childish tantrum was ultimately successful.
CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.
For years her posts labeled me as “misinformed”, “illogical”, “unintelligent”, etc. in the usual style of a stubborn but weak debate opponent.
But recently and rather quickly it has escalated to “paid troll”, “multiple accounts”, “webcam hacking” …
I know that there’s little chance that her brand of crazy would develop into actual danger, but there’s no point in taking the chance with an internet weirdo. I’ve got a wife, kids, a dog … I even have friends!
The wise decision is to no longer participate in the nutty things that go on here.
Rich, please deactivate my account and delete my posting history if it’s not too much trouble.
(Leave this post up a little longer though, so I can take my victory lap…)
CA renter
April 27, 2018 @
6:49 AM
harvey wrote:Rich Toscano [quote=harvey][quote=Rich Toscano]You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.[/quote]
I agree.
But of course my question was about unfounded personal accusations. There’s a material difference.
Despite the fact that I’ve once again trounced CAR in debate, her childish tantrum was ultimately successful.
CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.
For years her posts labeled me as “misinformed”, “illogical”, “unintelligent”, etc. in the usual style of a stubborn but weak debate opponent.
But recently and rather quickly it has escalated to “paid troll”, “multiple accounts”, “webcam hacking” …
I know that there’s little chance that her brand of crazy would develop into actual danger, but there’s no point in taking the chance with an internet weirdo. I’ve got a wife, kids, a dog … I even have friends!
The wise decision is to no longer participate in the nutty things that go on here.
Rich, please deactivate my account and delete my posting history if it’s not too much trouble.
(Leave this post up a little longer though, so I can take my victory lap…)[/quote]
LOL! You’ve trounced nothing, Pri. And you still haven’t addressed the reason why I posted this poll in the first place. This is the third time I’ve posted this:
[quote=CA renter]Here you go, yet again.
[quote=CA renter]
You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. My suspicions are not at all unfounded.
But you’ve done, yet again, what you always do…diverted attention from the main issue being discussed. What caused me to start this thread wasn’t the camera/mic thing, but the fact that you regularly, intentionally, and maliciously misquote other posters, and you regularly state (without the quote feature) that they’ve said things that were never said. Abusing the quote feature in the manner that you do is totally unethical and inexcusable; some would argue that it’s illegal because of the clear intent to defame innocent posters. You’ve seriously degraded the quality of interactions on this site and caused many good posters to leave. This, in itself, is why you should be banned.[/quote][/quote]
It’s not the least bit “crazy” or “paranoid” or “nutty” to be concerned when someone tries to hack a person’s camera and microphone. And it’s not “crazy” to question whether the person responsible for the possible hack is the creep who’s been chasing me around the website in a very deliberate and viscious attempt to troll, harass, and defame me.
But it’s very interesting that you’ve asked Rich to deactivate your account and delete your posting history. I don’t remember anyone ever doing that before. Did you get scared off by people pointing out the defamation issue to you? Many people have come and gone here; they just fade away. There was never a need for Rich to delete people’s posting histories. What makes you so special? What are you trying to hide? LOL!
And your nonsense about a wife and kids. Holy shit, Pri…you’re calling me crazy?
And the irony in this statement is over the top:
“CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.”
You’ve been chasing me around this site for years, and it is well known that you are the one who instigates all of the personal attacks. Stop acting like you’re suddenly a victim just because I called you out on your BS.
BTW, it’s very easy to ascertain whether or not I was specifically targeted. People just need to look at which sites have requested permission to access their microphones and cameras. If it’s a problem with a Google script, then it should show up on everyone’s computers. If it doesn’t show up on other posters’ computers, then I was specifically targeted.
Rich Toscano
April 27, 2018 @
8:46 AM
CA renter wrote:
BTW, it’s [quote=CA renter]
BTW, it’s very easy to ascertain whether or not I was specifically targeted. People just need to look at which sites have requested permission to access their microphones and cameras. If it’s a problem with a Google script, then it should show up on everyone’s computers. If it doesn’t show up on other posters’ computers, then I was specifically targeted.[/quote]
CAR, I’ve told you multiple times now that what you are proposing is not technically possible. It’s been verified in this thread that the camera access was due to an accessibility feature of the Google search function. You were not “targeted” by anyone. Please — enough of these wild accusations.
CA renter
April 27, 2018 @
9:12 AM
Rich Toscano wrote:CA renter [quote=Rich Toscano][quote=CA renter]
BTW, it’s very easy to ascertain whether or not I was specifically targeted. People just need to look at which sites have requested permission to access their microphones and cameras. If it’s a problem with a Google script, then it should show up on everyone’s computers. If it doesn’t show up on other posters’ computers, then I was specifically targeted.[/quote]
CAR, I’ve told you multiple times now that what you are proposing is not technically possible. It’s been verified in this thread that the camera access was due to an accessibility feature of the Google search function. You were not “targeted” by anyone. Please — enough of these wild accusations.[/quote]
You had initially stated that you didn’t see any suspicious code when you first looked into it.
[quote=Rich Toscano]CA Renter, thanks for the heads up. There is no code on this site that accesses cameras or mics. (We just double checked this now to make sure there was nothing new. BTW to Ribbles — it was a good guess though!).
If it truly came through the site, my best guess is that it somehow came through a Google ad. The other possibility is that it didn’t actually come from the site… maybe it’s just a glitch, but it could possibly be the result of your computer being compromised. So just to rule that last possibility out, I’d definitely recommend thoroughly scanning your system for malware if you aren’t already doing that.
As for the Google ads, they will be going away soon, so if that was the cause, it will cease to be an issue soon enough.[/quote]
What is the harm in other people looking to see if their computers were affected? That would go a long way toward making sure that it was a Google issue, and not a hacker (perhaps directly affecting my computer, or working through the site).
It’s also my understanding that Google has a policy of not accessing people’s computer hardware without permission. I NEVER gave anyone permission to access my camera/mic. This cannot be overstated. I want to be sure that the Google issue is where it came from, and seeing if other people’s computers were affected is the only way to find out.
I’m a staunch privacy rights advocate, as you probably know, and I had to deal with a stalker for three years back when I was younger. For women, in particular, this type of privacy invation is totally unacceptable. When someone, or some program, tries to access my camera/mic without permission, it is a very big deal.
Edited to add: I also use two ad blockers. Not sure if that would have prevented this, but wanted to add that info.
FlyerInHi
April 27, 2018 @
1:15 PM
I think the paranoia is right I think the paranoia is right there for all to see.
Rich Toscano
April 27, 2018 @
5:38 PM
But you already heard from But you already heard from someone (with a computer security background) who ran into the same issue, and traced it back to google.
As I said, non-admin pigg users (and I am the only admin) can only post a very limited set of HTML formatting tags. There’s absolutely no way a piggington user can “target” anyone or access webcams or mics — it’s just not how this website works.
That was never in doubt. Out of an abundance of caution we did check if there was some new code in the content management system that could access a camera, and that was ruled out as well. That leaves Google — which was later confirmed by another user who got the same message and traced it back.
You are rejecting a completely plausible explanation in favor of one that makes absolutely no technical sense.
I don’t know what else to say about it.
phaster
May 2, 2018 @
8:23 AM
Rich Toscano wrote:But you [quote=Rich Toscano]But you already heard from someone (with a computer security background) who ran into the same issue, and traced it back to google.
As I said, non-admin pigg users (and I am the only admin) can only post a very limited set of HTML formatting tags. There’s absolutely no way a piggington user can “target” anyone or access webcams or mics — it’s just not how this website works.
That was never in doubt. Out of an abundance of caution we did check if there was some new code in the content management system that could access a camera, and that was ruled out as well. That leaves Google — which was later confirmed by another user who got the same message and traced it back.
You are rejecting a completely plausible explanation in favor of one that makes absolutely no technical sense.
I don’t know what else to say about it.[/quote]
paranoia!?
par·a·noi·a – a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
CA renter wrote:
Edited to [quote=CA renter]
Edited to add: I also use two ad blockers. Not sure if that would have prevented this, but wanted to add that info.[/quote]
Add blockers don’t block compromises/attacks. The just block all the annoying popups and commercials. Use a script blocker ie. NoScript. The only problem with using NoScript is that you need to ‘grant’ script access to web sites with some requiring JavaScript to properly run. Some websites require ‘layers’ of JavaScript access because of cross site references(which can be a way to have web compromises – see Cross Site Scripting Compromises). Using NoScript requires more user ‘interaction’ sometimes just to get web pages to render. Unfortunately Google products are ‘married’ to scripting.
BTW: CA Renter, which browser were you running? Hopefully not Safari.
Rich Toscano
April 27, 2018 @
8:34 AM
harvey wrote:Rich Toscano [quote=harvey][quote=Rich Toscano]You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.[/quote]
I agree.
But of course my question was about unfounded personal accusations. There’s a material difference.
Despite the fact that I’ve once again trounced CAR in debate, her childish tantrum was ultimately successful.
CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.
For years her posts labeled me as “misinformed”, “illogical”, “unintelligent”, etc. in the usual style of a stubborn but weak debate opponent.
But recently and rather quickly it has escalated to “paid troll”, “multiple accounts”, “webcam hacking” …
I know that there’s little chance that her brand of crazy would develop into actual danger, but there’s no point in taking the chance with an internet weirdo. I’ve got a wife, kids, a dog … I even have friends!
The wise decision is to no longer participate in the nutty things that go on here.
Rich, please deactivate my account and delete my posting history if it’s not too much trouble.
(Leave this post up a little longer though, so I can take my victory lap…)[/quote]
OK, I deactivated it (you could just not log in? But whatever)
I can’t delete your posting history, because of the way the content management system works, it would also delete all replies to your posts. So they are there for posterity but your account is disabled as requested.
Hobie
April 26, 2018 @
12:24 PM
Rich- maybe locking threads Rich- maybe locking threads would be better than bans?
Rich Toscano
April 26, 2018 @
1:24 PM
I don’t want to spend time
I don’t want to spend time moderating, locking, banning, etc… it’s just not my thing. The forum has to run itself, for better or for worse.
April 20, 2018 @ 3:16 AM
Harvey has been posting here
Harvey has been posting here for some time, and in that time, he has intentionally and maliciously misquoted other posters in an attempt to frame them in a negative light. He’s been trolling this site, and his actions have caused the level of discourse here to severely degrade to the point that we have lost some valuable contributors to this forum. He prevents posters from being able to have intelligent, informed discussions about a wide variety of issues because he regularly forces threads to devolve into long strings of false accusations and personal attacks.
I have never asked for a person to be banned on any forum in my 20+ years on the internet (to the contrary, I’ve often supported those who were threatened with banning because I dislike echo chambers and think that we need access to multiple perspectives), but Pri has, once again, intentionally and maliciously attempted to make it look like I said something, via the quote feature, that was never stated. He’s done this on numberous occassions, not only to me, but to other posters as well.
This is his most recent attempt at the bottom of the first page:
https://piggington.com/why_are_states_so_strapped_cash_there_are_two_big_reasons#comment-280733
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
https://piggington.com/ot_countering_disinformation_and_propaganda_act_thoughts?page=4
Is anyone else sick of his trolling and making personal attacks?
April 20, 2018 @ 6:50 AM
He also turned you into a
He also turned you into a newt!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf71YotfykQ
April 20, 2018 @ 9:13 AM
I’m not “Harvey” or any other
I’m not “Harvey” or any other handle / poster here. Leave me out of this. This is your one and only warning.
April 21, 2018 @ 1:55 AM
gogogosandiego wrote:I’m not
[quote=gogogosandiego]I’m not “Harvey” or any other handle / poster here. Leave me out of this. This is your one and only warning.[/quote]
Your posting style, tone, and trolling tactics belie your claim. People are welcome to review your posts to ascertain for themselves who you are.
April 20, 2018 @ 7:02 PM
ucodegen wrote:
Harvey, you
[quote=ucodegen]
Harvey, you may have skipped a dose on your meds. CA renter never said that ‘you‘ hacked their Email. CA renter said ‘someone’. proof:
[quote=CA renter](And it might just be a coincidence, but someone has tried to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington. I do *not* believe that it is Rich.)[/quote]
Comment number 280690 on the ‘Countering Disinformation And Propagation Act’ thread – bottom of their comment. The direct links to comments don’t work, however it would be the 3rd comment down on the 5th page.[/quote]
Comment #1.
This thread.
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote]
April 21, 2018 @ 2:06 AM
harvey wrote:ucodegen
[quote=harvey][quote=ucodegen]
Harvey, you may have skipped a dose on your meds. CA renter never said that ‘you‘ hacked their Email. CA renter said ‘someone’. proof:
[quote=CA renter](And it might just be a coincidence, but someone has tried to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington. I do *not* believe that it is Rich.)[/quote]
Comment number 280690 on the ‘Countering Disinformation And Propagation Act’ thread – bottom of their comment. The direct links to comments don’t work, however it would be the 3rd comment down on the 5th page.[/quote]
Comment #1.
This thread.
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote][/quote]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
https://piggington.com/ot_countering_disinformation_and_propaganda_act_thoughts?page=4
You’ve been intentionally and maliciously trolling this forum for a long time. Your ad hominem attacks and claims that people have said things that they’ve never said (and using the quote feature to fill in your own words under other posters’ names to make it look like they had made these statements) are totally unacceptable. For that reason alone, you should be banned.
April 21, 2018 @ 6:24 AM
CA renter wrote:
It’s true, I
[quote=CA renter]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
https://piggington.com/ot_countering_disinformation_and_propaganda_act_thoughts?page=4%5B/quote%5D
That photo comes from one of your “sources”
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user92183/imageroot/ChineseHacker.png
Lol, zerohedge.
Hold on … I need to turn down the volume on the microphone feed … the whooshing sound of all of this going over your head is deafening.
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.
April 21, 2018 @ 8:36 AM
harvey wrote:CA renter
[quote=harvey][quote=CA renter]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
https://piggington.com/ot_countering_disinformation_and_propaganda_act_thoughts?page=4
[/quote]
That photo comes from one of your “sources”
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user92183/imageroot/ChineseHacker.png
Lol, zerohedge.
Hold on … I need to turn down the volume on the microphone feed … the whooshing sound of all of this going over your head is deafening.
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.[/quote]
And yet, Russia was a hoax. She said something like that…. not going to look it up. Maybe she will look it up for me.
April 21, 2018 @ 6:06 PM
harvey wrote:
It’s cute that
[quote=harvey]
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.[/quote]
Trolling, mocking comments, even misquoting for parody are free speech. Accusing someone of illegal activity is defamation.
April 21, 2018 @ 7:07 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:harvey
[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=harvey]
It’s cute that you whine about “ad hominem” attacks in the same post that you make unfounded accusations of actual crimes.[/quote]
Trolling, mocking comments, even misquoting for parody are free speech. Accusing someone of illegal activity is defamation.[/quote]
First point: misquoting for parody w/out making it clear that it is parody, is actually defamation/libel. See libel involving an altered quotes. Being ‘implied’ in your point of view or view of the person does not qualify. It must be whether anyone else would mistake the misquote as being actual. Parody is a very fine line, and the way it was done actually crosses the line to libel. Now you understand why I tend to use the ‘snark’ markings.
Second point: Trolling, mocking comments – if malicious can be considered harassment from a legal point of view, particularly if targeted to a specific individual, group, minorities or disadvantaged.
Don’t believe me, here:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/sep/13/internet-troll-jailed-mocking-teenagers
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2017/11/_metoo_is_changing_the_minds_of_internet_trolls.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberbullying
https://www.shouselaw.com/is-internet-trolling-a-crime-in-california
http://harvardjol.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/HLL205.pdf
Some of these are British, but much of the same legislation is coming over here to the U.S. Some of it already here. The issues are how much, how often, how persistent. Don’t assume automatic Freedom of Speech.. because there are actually limits to Freedom of Speech.
April 21, 2018 @ 7:54 PM
The parody is very much on
The parody is very much on point and quite funny.
I’ll let others decide for themselves but my takeaway from CARenter’s posts is that she blames Mexican kids, Prop 13, etc.. for pension shortfalls.
The real reasons for underfunded pensions are pension spending and promises. Change the laws to take back benefits and you solve the problems. As easy as that.
When convenient, CAr mentions funds and laws. But then she wants to take education funds to pay for municipal pensions.
April 22, 2018 @ 2:46 PM
If you want to sue for
If you want to sue for defamation, by all means, feel free to:
1) Spend your money on a lawyer to get a court order to compel Google and Microsoft to reveal the IP address. You will need to deal with the Google and Microsoft lawyers.
Even if you get a court order, you will need to pay Google and Microsoft’s cost to provide the information that you seek. I hear that software engineers can afford to buy nice houses in Silicon Valley, Seattle and also San Diego. So it will cost a pretty penny to send them on a fishing expedition.
2) Spend more money to compel the ISP to match the IP address to the account owner.
3) Spend yet more money to identify me. BTW, many people use an open WiFi connection.
4) Then spend more money to initiate the lawsuit.
I’m sure that you have enough money to feed the lawyers. Plus you’ll be stimulating the economy.
April 21, 2018 @ 12:33 PM
CA renter wrote:
It’s true, I
[quote=CA renter]
It’s true, I do suspect you, Pri. Your response to my claim about the camera/mic access was odd, to say the least (see page 5, here).
https://piggington.com/ot_countering_disinformation_and_propaganda_act_thoughts?page=4
[/quote]
That response (pri’s) almost looks like pure snark. Note the computer – looks like it is might be running win95, maybe w2k. It is an old CRT, best resolution is probably 1024×780. The computer is almost pre internet.
April 21, 2018 @ 12:04 PM
harvey wrote:
Comment
[quote=harvey]
Comment #1.
This thread.
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote][/quote]
Noted, sorry. an interesting pivot from the person’s earlier general statement. <snark>I presume you are a DoD hacker or some sort of expert black hat?</snark>
The way Piggington is set up, you can’t put in ‘active’ links that bring in cross site scripting elements nor external javascript – though I have really not tried to crack Piggington myself, nor won’t (I don’t defecate in the place one regularly visit, nor don’t pee in the water one drinks from).
April 22, 2018 @ 6:31 AM
ucodegen wrote:
CA renter
[quote=ucodegen]
[quote=CA renter]
I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington, as shown on page 5 of this thread:
[/quote]
Noted, sorry. an interesting pivot from the person’s earlier general statement. <snark>I presume you are a DoD hacker or some sort of expert black hat?</snark>
The way Piggington is set up, you can’t put in ‘active’ links that bring in cross site scripting elements nor external javascript – though I have really not tried to crack Piggington myself, nor won’t (I don’t defecate in the place one regularly visit, nor don’t pee in the water one drinks from).[/quote]
You seem to have a good understanding about how websites work.
CAR is claiming that I hacked into piggington specifically to access her webcam. It’s a pretty serious claim, as she’s accusing someone of a crime (probably a felony.)
But she hasn’t provided anything to support her claim that I am the culprit.
What would she need to show as evidence? Some kind of log? Would it have my name in it?
We know that CAR doesn’t make claims without supporting evidence. She certainly is not unhinged or paranoid. So she must have some pretty convincing evidence if she were going to make such a serious claim.
What do you think, ucodegen?
April 22, 2018 @ 5:00 PM
harvey wrote:
You seem to
[quote=harvey]
You seem to have a good understanding about how websites work.
CAR is claiming that I hacked into piggington specifically to access her webcam. It’s a pretty serious claim, as she’s accusing someone of a crime (probably a felony.)[/quote]
It is a serious claim, but whether it raises to the level of a felony is a different matter. It could be considered misdemeanor vandalism or stalking.
[quote=harvey]
But she hasn’t provided anything to support her claim that I am the culprit.
What would she need to show as evidence? Some kind of log? Would it have my name in it?
[/quote]Evidence is tricky. If she was running a system that monitors all packets coming through her router – it would be a strong start. They would show IP addresses that could be tracked back to the source account. If you are running a router, it will not be the IP address on your computer, but will likely be the address from your modem. She probably would not be able to id the person behind that IP address, but the packet capture record would be enough to force a warrant to go to that ISP to reveal the owner of that account. Most IP addresses on Cable and DSL modems are fairly static, and the ISP knows what the mapping is between the Modem’s MAC address and account at all times (so they can meter the data rate based on paid level of service and verify that the modem actually belongs to their customer). This is somewhat similar to how the police have dealt with pedophilic peeping toms – who manage to remotely turn on some young girl’s computer’s camera to watch.
[quote=harvey]We know that CAR doesn’t make claims without supporting evidence. She certainly is not unhinged or paranoid. So she must have some pretty convincing evidence if she were going to make such a serious claim.
What do you think, ucodegen?[/quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist. That was not my field of study.
Since you are moving sort of in the direction of liability, the statements also hinge on believablity on the part of the author. To that we can go to your past statements, as well as others as to whether such a statement might be believable and as to what the belief of yours and others on the voracity of this persons statements (on multiple subjects). Since you, FlyerInHi, etc do not hold CA renter’s statements with much regard (actually in some fact, with some contempt), it reduces any potential for claim of injury. Add to that, the fact that this person has been admittedly ‘Trolled’ by one that might claim injury, it might eliminate any potential claim.
It works similar to how the justice handles someone going up to a big guy and punching them. That person can not claim ‘assault’ if that big guy then turns around after the individual him them and ends up knocking out the person with one hit. – could also be seen as a legal variant of ‘unclean hands’.
Another aspect of liability due to statements is whether the person making the statement is considered an expert in the field they are making a claim about. I don’t think CA renter is a computer expert, forensic or otherwise. This provides a great deal of immunity to their statements.
April 22, 2018 @ 5:21 PM
ucodegen wrote:Evidence is
[quote=ucodegen]Evidence is tricky. If she was running a system that monitors all packets coming through her router – it would be a strong start. They would show IP addresses that could be tracked back to the source account. If you are running a router, it will not be the IP address on your computer, but will likely be the address from your modem. She probably would not be able to id the person behind that IP address, but the packet capture record would be enough to force a warrant to go to that ISP to reveal the owner of that account.[/quote]
Thanks for the detailed explanation.
I get what you are saying: Even if someone was hacked, there is no way anyone could know the person on the other end. Only the ISP would know, and they would not even investigate without a warrant.
In other words, CAR has no evidence whatsoever.
If she had evidence, she could call the cops instead of posting a butthurt survey on an obscure real-estate website.
[quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist.[/quote]
That’s unfortunate, because CAR really needs one.
April 23, 2018 @ 12:05 PM
harvey wrote:
I get what you
[quote=harvey]
I get what you are saying: Even if someone was hacked, there is no way anyone could know the person on the other end. Only the ISP would know, and they would not even investigate without a warrant.[/quote]
Actually, that is not what I said. I did not reveal all the ways to find out. I gave you ‘a’ way to find out that can be used by law enforcement – and preserves the evidence chain for prosecution. I also gave incomplete info of all the steps.
[quote=harvey]
In other words, CAR has no evidence whatsoever.
If she had evidence, she could call the cops instead of posting a butthurt survey on an obscure real-estate website.
[/quote]
It is most likely true that she has no evidence, only a hunch partially brought on by being targeted by trolling as well as a sparse knowledge of how computers and the internet works.
That said, if you do have computer and network expertise and did manage to pull off something like she claims, I wouldn’t rest easy. – Note: IMHO, I consider this last item a very very extreme far off possibility, partially because I saw and tracked the Google links in the Piggington web page.
Most people who have actually been hacked tend to flail around, not doing the things they should actually do. ie. use the Wayback machine to capture the image and refs in the web page in question (immediately), do a local capture of the webpage (save page as), get a person, preferably with law enforcement background to take a look ASAP.. and by all means, avoid giving a warning – let the hammer drop do the warning.
[quote=harvey]
[quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist.[/quote]
That’s unfortunate, because CAR really needs one.[/quote]
Is that your clinical opinion as someone with expertise of psychiatry or are you using safe harbor of no experience within the field?
April 23, 2018 @ 12:19 PM
Whatever you say…. CAr has
Whatever you say…. CAr has no evidence at all. She drawing conclusions out of paranoia and emotions. It would be less funny is she didn’t claim to be be facts based.
April 23, 2018 @ 12:47 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:Whatever you
[quote=FlyerInHi]Whatever you say…. CAr has no evidence at all. She drawing conclusions out of paranoia and emotions. It would be less funny is she didn’t claim to be be facts based.[/quote]
Umm, how is this any different than what I said? I also brought up issues of targeted trolling leading to potential paranoia coupled with lack of computer expertise. I did it in a way to clarify and defuse anger/paranoia/emotions.
How is your statement additive of clarative? It is more like the actions of a punk kid that went up to someone I had pinned to the ground for mall security and kicking the guy that I pinned in the ribs for no real reason. Just want to keep stirring the pot – eh?
April 23, 2018 @ 3:24 AM
ucodegen wrote:harvey
[quote=ucodegen][quote=harvey]
You seem to have a good understanding about how websites work.
CAR is claiming that I hacked into piggington specifically to access her webcam. It’s a pretty serious claim, as she’s accusing someone of a crime (probably a felony.)[/quote]
It is a serious claim, but whether it raises to the level of a felony is a different matter. It could be considered misdemeanor vandalism or stalking.
[quote=harvey]
But she hasn’t provided anything to support her claim that I am the culprit.
What would she need to show as evidence? Some kind of log? Would it have my name in it?
[/quote]Evidence is tricky. If she was running a system that monitors all packets coming through her router – it would be a strong start. They would show IP addresses that could be tracked back to the source account. If you are running a router, it will not be the IP address on your computer, but will likely be the address from your modem. She probably would not be able to id the person behind that IP address, but the packet capture record would be enough to force a warrant to go to that ISP to reveal the owner of that account. Most IP addresses on Cable and DSL modems are fairly static, and the ISP knows what the mapping is between the Modem’s MAC address and account at all times (so they can meter the data rate based on paid level of service and verify that the modem actually belongs to their customer). This is somewhat similar to how the police have dealt with pedophilic peeping toms – who manage to remotely turn on some young girl’s computer’s camera to watch.
[quote=harvey]We know that CAR doesn’t make claims without supporting evidence. She certainly is not unhinged or paranoid. So she must have some pretty convincing evidence if she were going to make such a serious claim.
What do you think, ucodegen?[/quote]All I can say, is that I am not a psychiatrist. That was not my field of study.
Since you are moving sort of in the direction of liability, the statements also hinge on believablity on the part of the author. To that we can go to your past statements, as well as others as to whether such a statement might be believable and as to what the belief of yours and others on the voracity of this persons statements (on multiple subjects). Since you, FlyerInHi, etc do not hold CA renter’s statements with much regard (actually in some fact, with some contempt), it reduces any potential for claim of injury. Add to that, the fact that this person has been admittedly ‘Trolled’ by one that might claim injury, it might eliminate any potential claim.
It works similar to how the justice handles someone going up to a big guy and punching them. That person can not claim ‘assault’ if that big guy then turns around after the individual him them and ends up knocking out the person with one hit. – could also be seen as a legal variant of ‘unclean hands’.
Another aspect of liability due to statements is whether the person making the statement is considered an expert in the field they are making a claim about. I don’t think CA renter is a computer expert, forensic or otherwise. This provides a great deal of immunity to their statements.[/quote]
Note that I said I suspected you of doing this; I did not claim as fact that you hacked my computer via Piggington.
Why did I make this statement? Because you have very intentionally and maliciously trolled me for years, and you’ve done so repeatedly without any provocation on my part. You have purposely used the quote feature to make it look like I’ve said things that were never stated by me — you’ve done this numerous times, even after I repeatedly told you to stop. You’ve intentionally and maliciously stated or implied (without using the quote feature) that I’ve said things that were never stated by me — again, you’ve done this numerous times. You’ve made extremely viscious posts in an attempt to attack and defame me without any provocation on my part. On multiple threads, you’ve disrupted the conversation and diverted the conversations into personal attacks against me. If anyone were to have reason to file a defamation lawsuit, it would be me.
When I commented about someone trying to access my camera and microphone via Piggington, you responded with very inappropriate and suspicous replies — comments that would not make sense if posted by innocent or “regular” posters.
You are a literal troll and, based on your posting history, the most obvious person who would try to access my camera and microphone through this site.
It’s true that I’m not a techie, but there is no doubt that someone tried to access my computer’s hardware via Piggington (as shown in the screen captures in the linked thread). You are the most obvious suspect (again, I said “suspect,” not that you did, in fact, hack my computer). One does not need hard evidence in order to suspect someone of committing a crime, they only need to show that there is a reason to suspect someone of committing a crime. You’ve provided plenty of reasons to suspect you of doing this.
April 23, 2018 @ 7:40 AM
Lol, you aren’t accusing me,
Lol, you aren’t accusing me, just stridently repeating that I’m the only suspect.
Out of the zillion ways your computer could have been reached, I’m the “obvious” choice because I hurt your pride and mocked your nonsense on an internet forum.
And the only evidence required is your mental gymnastics and need for attention.
April 23, 2018 @ 12:37 PM
CA renter wrote:
Why did I
[quote=CA renter]
Why did I make this statement? Because you have very intentionally and maliciously trolled me for years, and you’ve done so repeatedly without any provocation on my part. You have purposely used the quote feature to make it look like I’ve said things that were never stated by me — you’ve done this numerous times, even after I repeatedly told you to stop. You’ve intentionally and maliciously stated or implied (without using the quote feature) that I’ve said things that were never stated by me — again, you’ve done this numerous times. You’ve made extremely viscious posts in an attempt to attack and defame me without any provocation on my part. On multiple threads, you’ve disrupted the conversation and diverted the conversations into personal attacks against me. If anyone were to have reason to file a defamation lawsuit, it would be me.[/quote]
BTW harvey/pridk, if the above is true, this is where you might have real liability with respect to internet stalking and harassment. I even showed where someone was jailed for Trolling. The proof of any harassment, if it exists, is on Piggington and does not require a warrant to view. I gave links to some of what is happening in that field of internet stalking, trolling and harassment with respect to law enforcement.
I knew where you were going with some of your questions and that is why I worded my replies carefully but accurately. I got the feeling that you would try to use my statements as Trolling material against CA renter.
re: flu/this thread
It is funny unless you are a target, particularly of some forms of Trolling. CA renter has handled it incorrectly, sometimes getting a bit long winded and taking it personally instead of disengaging emotions and thinking about what is really happening when addressing statements and then taking the approach of addressing intent instead of specifics.
April 23, 2018 @ 12:43 PM
ucodegen, your long winded
ucodegen, your long winded posts are just deflection just like CAr’s
CAr said civil defamation above and somehow you relate her post to criminal harassment.
All I see is mocking and parody.
April 23, 2018 @ 12:53 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:ucodegen,
[quote=FlyerInHi]ucodegen, your long winded posts are just deflection just like CAr’s
CAr said civil defamation above and somehow you relate her post to criminal harassment.
All I see is mocking and parody.[/quote]
I guess you have a attention span problem. Your approach is deflection – mine is directly addressing and explaining. I responded to harvey, showing how she most likely had no proof, why she had no proof, what would be needed for proof, addressed harvey’s questions directly, showed where there is and isn’t liability. I also showed what L.E. would see, and what harvey might want to watch out for in terms of L.E.
April 23, 2018 @ 2:20 PM
ucodegen wrote:
re: flu/this
[quote=ucodegen]
re: flu/this thread
It is funny unless you are a target, particularly of some forms of Trolling. CA renter has handled it incorrectly, sometimes getting a bit long winded and taking it personally instead of disengaging emotions and thinking about what is really happening when addressing statements and then taking the approach of addressing intent instead of specifics.[/quote]
I’m not laughing at the CAR.
I’m laughing at all responses blowing this way out into left field, not at anyone one specific person. The moment this thread started and about 3-4 threads into it (and the other one about pensions), how would this thread end up other than they way it did?
Many of the threads started these days is just to stir up the pot. Why out of all the forums that exist all over internet, for example, do people choose to vent about politics, public policy, etc, here? Simple. Because anywhere else, the user(s) would have been banned a long time ago and those want eyeballs. I would think if trolling politics is really your thing, go camp out on Breitbart and piss off people there.
Anyway, it’s entertaining…almost as entertaining as posts on Nextdoor. miataturbo.net is not nearly as much fun to read. People get banned just for asking stupid questions, lol.
April 23, 2018 @ 3:10 PM
So says the guy whose handle
So says the guy whose handle is fat lazy union.
April 24, 2018 @ 11:43 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:So says the
[quote=FlyerInHi]So says the guy whose handle is fat lazy union.[/quote]
So says the guy who is a failed real estate blogger from San Diego who was banned from this site. And is a proven sexist, racist, elitist liar. Who, overnight became a pilot living in Honolulu, allthewhile claiming to live in Las Vegas, and owning mystery rental property in the ghetto. You have zero credibility.
April 24, 2018 @ 12:04 PM
Yes, it’s all a figment of
Yes, it’s all a figment of our imaginations….
Adaptable people move and do different things.
Besides, how do personal situations reflect on the veracity of certain statements? Sounds like ad hominem to me.
I could be a homeless person using Wi-Fi at Starbucks and it still wouldn’t negate the fact that there’s plenty of paranoia on this thread and some people can’t deal with having their feelings hurt.
April 24, 2018 @ 1:24 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:So says the
[quote=FlyerInHi]So says the guy whose handle is fat lazy union.[/quote]
[quote=FlyerInHi]All I see is mocking and parody.[/quote]
I thought you understood mocking and parody?? I guess you ‘forgot‘ some of the history in his ‘handle’.
April 24, 2018 @ 1:22 PM
flu wrote:
Many of the
[quote=flu]
Many of the threads started these days is just to stir up the pot. Why out of all the forums that exist all over internet, for example, do people choose to vent about politics, public policy, etc, here? Simple. Because anywhere else, the user(s) would have been banned a long time ago and those want eyeballs. I would think if trolling politics is really your thing, go camp out on Breitbart and piss off people there.
[/quote]
Unfortunately some posts are started just to stir the pot, others get trolled into stirring the pot. Discussions on pensions might be a useful, if it could be kept civil – however the discussion didn’t seem to want to stay that way.
[quote=flu]
Anyway, it’s entertaining…almost as entertaining as posts on Nextdoor. miataturbo.net is not nearly as much fun to read. People get banned just for asking stupid questions, lol.[/quote]
It could be seen as entertaining unless one wants an ‘adult’ conversation. As for your Eddie Murphy anim gif, kind of appropriate after looking how the discussion went from your quoted post (end page 1), or maybe the start of ‘Earnest goes to Camp’. Kind of reminds me of an animal wanting to go back to the middle of traffic after being moved to safety.
April 25, 2018 @ 8:22 AM
ucodegen wrote:
Unfortunately
[quote=ucodegen]
Unfortunately some posts are started just to stir the pot, others get trolled into stirring the pot. Discussions on pensions might be a useful, if it could be kept civil – however the discussion didn’t seem to want to stay that way.[/quote]
now that things seem to have settled down,… and since you mentioned “pensions” ya never did share your thoughts on,…
[quote=phaster][quote=ucodegen][quote=phaster]
WRT the matter @ hand,… California public pension recipients and politicians blame the markets and wall street bankers to rally the faithful. The scapegoating strategy mostly works! By beating up on other institutions this keeps supporters (and the general public) from focusing too closely on fact that politicians and public employee union officials created the financial problem.
FYI the same week the “pension” op-ed was in the paper, another math related story was in the news.
[quote]
Scripps Study (There’s A Chance Climate Change Can Wipe Out Humans By 2050)
http://www.kpbs.org/news/2017/sep/15/scripps-study-theres-chance-climate-change-can-wip/
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/science/sd-me-scripps-climatechange-20170914-story.html
[/quote]
This news story was on the back pages.
As I see things, the op-ed illustrates an entitlement mentality that politicians and public employee union officials have about pensions. The root cause being the DELUSION they have, which is the math will somehow work!
[/quote]
That is a strange ‘pivot’. The problem is that math is ACTUALLY showing the AGW people wrong, and I don’t see any math in your references… but the AGW proponents don’t want to see the math, so they keep shouting that there is a consensus. Science does not use consensus – but politicians do.
Here is a little exercise WRT AGW. Build a table – MS eXcel helps. Down the left side – top 3 global warming gasses, downward strongest to weakest. Across the top, name of gas, chemical formula, atomic weight, relative global warming strength when compared to weakest of the 3, PPM on average (some of the gasses are highly variable) and finally weighted PPM using weakest gas as a basis. Fill in the table and take a look at the results.
The AGW proponents bring up that Roger Revelle showed that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, what they fail to mention is his warning about jumping to conclusions on CO2.
PS: I graduated from Revelle College, UCSD, I have met and talked with Roger Revelle a long time ago and I used to work at SIO a long time ago.
PPS: You can cheat and look the answers and numbers up when filling in the table.[/quote]
funny you mentioned revelle @ UCSD, he taught an undergrad seminar/thesis class that I took a year before he died
the class was offered/designed to expose undergrads on the science track (i.e. physics) to have an understanding of the policy side (i.e. political science) AND VICE VERSA
I was a undergrad double major, so figured (back then) it would be kinda neat to have the guy who started UCSD as an instructor to get his take on the two different POV
anyway during a discussion revelle mentioned the big unknown [AT THE TIME] was aerosols (i.e. water vapor AKA “clouds”) which varied albedo/reflectivity,… that in turn has an influence on the environment (i.e. temperature),… I also learned back then, math models are NOT perfect (i.e. always a work in progress)
some years after the class, read about the concept of “global dimming” matter of fact the same guy (Ramanathan) who wrote the recent scripps report (mentioned in the news)
https://scripps.ucsd.edu/news/new-climate-risk-classification-created-account-potential-existential-threats
also wrote a paper on the topic of “dimming” (years ago!)
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4020-6475-3_94
(for context see “NOVA” PBS transcript where “Ramanathan” appears)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3310_sun.html
when I mentioned “math” I was pondering the topic of “risk” w/ in the system (i.e. various knock on effects)
FWIW that is how I also approach “investing”
basically WRT the way public pension portfolios are managed and the way the scripps report presented itself, I see trouble ahead because I question the “margin of safety”
https://www.amazon.com/Margin-Safety-Risk-Averse-Strategies-Thoughtful/dp/0887305105
in other words there are huge downside consequence of mis-managing public pension portfolios (like wise w/ climate change),… as I see things various short term “gain” payoff(s) (for a select few) are an over all loser gamble (WRT “punishments”) in the long run[/quote]
https://piggington.com/commentary_why_full_funding_pensions_waste_money#comment-279052
April 25, 2018 @ 1:27 PM
Re: Global dimming, aerosols
Re: Global dimming, aerosols etc.
I actually agree with many of the statements with respect to global dimming due to aerosols. There is also a greenhouse effect due to aerosols as well. Aerosols can also affect humidity and precipitation. The ‘real’ natural model is much more complex than the current ones being used. One of the problems I have with current analysis is the precept of a ‘run-away’. Most of the interactions I have been seeing are largely self regulating. One technique used in EE for finding a ‘runaway’ is to look in frequency domain on functions and look for poles (Laplace transforms).
re: CO2 greenhouse effect, if X% CO2 concentrations gives Y% ‘greenhouse effect’ – than 2X% of CO2 concentration does NOT give 2Y% of ‘greenhouse effect’, nor Y%^2. It gives approx Y%+(1-Y%)Y% of greenhouse effect within its spectral bands (you can’t block/absorb radiation has has already been blocked/absorbed by the first X%)
For the current anthropogenic greenhouse effect to ‘work’, it has to operate by feeding back through the ‘water’ channel. The greenhouse effect of CO2 is very weak, while that of water is fairly strong. There is a problem though. The thermal energy movement by water dwarfs any greenhouse effect induced the CO2 – ie, we are worried about 2℃ change in atmospheric temp when heat capacity of air is significantly less than the energy that a equivalent amount of water being evaporated and then condensed will move. This means that changes in water use on the surface of the planet will easily dwarf any CO2 induced climate change.
This could end up being a very long discussion – however bringing it up short, try looking at the thermodynamic side. If we burn fossil, or use nuclear – what happens to that energy when we are done with it? Remember – you can not create nor destroy energy, just transform it. Look at the amount of energy contained in the oil consumed in a year, convert to amount of energy(Calories, Joules – whatever) then look at atmospheric heat capacity as well as energy required to melt ice. Expand by amount of oil consumed, lets say for 30 years. Add in other fossils, nuclear.
Re: Pensions – second section of post & risk
Virtually all that I saw you post WRT pension portfolio risk and insufficient funding I agree with. However, I would not tie climate changes issues along the lines of pension fund risks. Pension fund risks are mathematically proven, however anthropogenic global warming is still a bit up in the air with a lot being done with ‘reconstruction’ and use of indirectly derived values as opposed to directly measured. NOTE: I always get suspicious when a term gets ‘rebranded’ ie anthropogenic global warming -> climate change.
PS: Have you tried building that table I suggested?
May 2, 2018 @ 9:10 AM
ucodegen wrote:Re: Global
[quote=ucodegen]Re: Global dimming, aerosols etc.
…This could end up being a very long discussion – however bringing it up short, try looking at the thermodynamic side.
Re: Pensions – second section of post & risk
Virtually all that I saw you post WRT pension portfolio risk and insufficient funding I agree with. However, I would not tie climate changes issues along the lines of pension fund risks. Pension fund risks are mathematically proven, however anthropogenic global warming is still a bit up in the air with a lot being done with ‘reconstruction’ and use of indirectly derived values as opposed to directly measured. NOTE: I always get suspicious when a term gets ‘rebranded’ ie anthropogenic global warming -> climate change.
PS: Have you tried building that table I suggested?[/quote]
over the years looked at various climate models, including an ocean heat sink model where thermal energy is absorbed by cooler ocean currents, blah, blah, blah,…
but in complex chaotic system have to agree w/ “non believers” (of risk to the planet such as Freeman Dyson a brilliant prominent physicist) that there isn’t an elegant math equation that perfectly describes climate change
basically climate models are more akin to a QM (quantum mechanics) problem, in that what is being calculated is a probability,… BUT unlike QM (which has an “elegant” wave equation as its basis),… various climate models are based on well informed educated guesses then its run thru a monte carlo simulation (in other words I’d be the first to acknowledge that any climate model is based on an uncertain guess how things will play out AND hopefully each iteration converges into something that reflects the complexity of the real world)
as I mentioned years ago revelle said he though the big unknown in climate change was “aerosols”
what you might find interesting is something else he said in passing about considering the big picture,… but first some context,… basically the class revelle taught undergrads @ UCSD was not directed at one specific major,.. like earth-science,… rather it was a pretty informal gathering of young knuckleheads pursuing various degrees, sitting around a table
anyway WRT the big picture of climate change, what I recall revelle mentioning is that we (students) were all bring different perspectives to the table,… so he wanted us to appreciate the various POV in order to grasp the enormity of the problem
basically back in the day I learned that CO2 absorbs some of the wavelengths that water vapor lets through AND if CO2 didn’t happen have the unique property of absorbing the infrared radiation “energy” that water vapor lets through,… THEN planets like venus w/ high atmospheric temperatures (and high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere) might only be a scientific curiosity (instead of possible glimpse of our planets future)
we know that temperatures will rise w/ increasing CO2 levels,… but the question always has been how fast or how high BECAUSE of the non-linearity of the system w/ complex feed back loops
FWIW I also took a basic circuits class which used various electrical components to model simple mechanical systems, so also wondered (back then) if it was possible to model the climate using a “circuits” approach AND the short answer was nope BECAUSE of the non-linearity of the system w/ complex feed back loops that are not all fully understood
[quote=Revelle and Suess, 1957]
“. . . human beings are now carrying out a large scale geophysical experiment of a kind that could not have happened in the past nor be reproduced in the future. Within a few centuries we are returning to the atmosphere and oceans the concentrated organic carbon stored in sedimentary rocks over hundreds of millions of years. This experiment, if adequately documented, may yield a far-reaching insight into the processes determining weather and climate.”
[/quote]
given all the uncertainty, what revelle suggested (back when I took the course) is to look at trends/symptoms related to elevated CO2 levels
so over the years I’ve taken an interest in reports of increased CO2 levels and its effects on the system,… for example one report of elevated CO2 levels is leading toward a trend of ocean acidification which in turn effects shell fish reproduction
https://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean+Acidification%27s+impact+on+oysters+and+other+shellfish
and FWIW seems damage to the eco system extends to other parts of the food chain,…
[quote]
The great nutrient collapse
The atmosphere is literally changing the food we eat, for the worse. And almost nobody is paying attention.
…Goldenrod, a wildflower many consider a weed, is extremely important to bees. It flowers late in the season, and its pollen provides an important source of protein for bees as they head into the harshness of winter. Since goldenrod is wild and humans haven’t bred it into new strains, it hasn’t changed over time as much as, say, corn or wheat. And the Smithsonian Institution also happens to have hundreds of samples of goldenrod, dating back to 1842, in its massive historical archive—which gave Ziska and his colleagues a chance to figure out how one plant has changed over time.
They found that the protein content of goldenrod pollen has declined by a third since the industrial revolution—and the change closely tracks with the rise in CO2. Scientists have been trying to figure out why bee populations around the world have been in decline, which threatens many crops that rely on bees for pollination. Ziska’s paper suggested that a decline in protein prior to winter could be an additional factor making it hard for bees to survive other stressors.
https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511
[/quote]
taken together, all the trends point towards an interesting question,…
[quote]
Will Humans Survive the Sixth Great Extinction?
In the last half-billion years, life on Earth has been nearly wiped out five times—by such things as climate change, an intense ice age, volcanoes, and that space rock that smashed into the Gulf of Mexico 65 million years ago, obliterating the dinosaurs and a bunch of other species. These events are known as the Big Five mass extinctions, and all signs suggest we are now on the precipice of a sixth.
Except this time, we have no one but ourselves to blame. According to a study published last week in Science Advances, the current extinction rate could be more than 100 times higher than normal—and that’s only taking into account the kinds of animals we know the most about,…
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150623-sixth-extinction-kolbert-animals-conservation-science-world/
[/quote]
heard of the drake equation???
if not,… the Drake Equation is an attempt to encapsulate all the variables that would be relevant to establishing the number of intelligent civilizations that existed in the Milky Way galaxy and which were broadcasting radio signals at this particular point in time
https://www.seti.org/drakeequation
had the opportunity years ago to hang out w/ drake (and a few other space nuts from SETI) in iceland on a road trip of sorts,… and one of my interests for that little adventure was among other things to find out more about the Fermi paradox (i.e. the apparent contradiction between the lack of evidence and high probability estimates for the existence of extraterrestrial civilizations)
long story short, over the years I’m 99% certain that financial markets and corrupt/mismanaged instruments like public pension portfolios, collectively can act as a disruptive force to destroy the fabric of society (i.e. act like a “great filter” which is an idea put forth in the Fermi paradox)
http://www.businessinsider.com/climate-change-great-filter-fermi-paradox-aliens-2017-7
http://www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay
May 2, 2018 @ 1:18 PM
Humans may not be able to
Humans may not be able to deal with environmental collapse. Theoretically very difficult, if not impossible.
On the other hand, financial collapse can be dealt with some social engineering and reallocation of resources. Theoretically not that difficult.
May 3, 2018 @ 7:06 PM
phaster wrote:basically back
[quote=phaster]basically back in the day I learned that CO2 absorbs some of the wavelengths that water vapor lets through AND if CO2 didn’t happen have the unique property of absorbing the infrared radiation “energy” that water vapor lets through,…[/quote]
This is partially accurate. CO2 is a better absorber at certain radiant frequencies. Of concern was the frequency near 273K. This was a concern because it is near the current mean blackbody temperature of earth. The weak point though is that this particular absorption frequency is actually fairly narrow. It corresponds to the resonant frequency between the oxygen and carbon bonds in carbon dioxide (ie. how microwave ovens act on the resonant freq between oxygen and hydrogen in water). The best diagram of absorption bands that I have found so far is this one:
For those unfamiliar, left side is higher frequencies, higher energies, right side is lower frequencies and longer wavelengths. The red is what the sun gives us and makes its way onto the earth – note the ‘gaps’ created by water vapor absorption. The red curve is the blackbody radiation profile. Blue is the earth radiance profile, with the blue curves represent the blackbody radiation profile of specific blackbody temperatures. The purple one being the one closest to earth’s blackbody temperature. If the earth gets warmer, the curve will shift to the left. If you look at the absorption profile, moving to the left actually moves away from the core frequencies where carbon dioxide absorbs. Water in the form of droplets as opposed to a gas is not shown in the graph above, however it can be seen that the small drops of water in clouds act like micro-lenses that actually cause light to be reflected. The spectra that gets reflected runs from low UV through visible into high (shortwave) IR.
An interesting sidenote is that the earth will actually get hotter as the sun gets colder. This is because the blackbody temperature of the sun will move the radiance below what water droplets can reflect.
Monty Carlo simulations are a poor analog for climate modeling. Monty Carlo works best by applying probability and getting a deterministic discrete output. With Climate, we have a non-discrete input with probabilistic behavior and distribution, applying probabilistic behavior and getting non-discrete outputs. Ironically, something that might be just right for a quantum computer. Most of the models I have run across fudge the forcing just to get the model stable. Most like to rapidly spin down to a frozen earth.
[quote=phaster] THEN planets like venus w/ high atmospheric temperatures (and high levels of CO2 in the atmosphere) might only be a scientific curiosity (instead of possible glimpse of our planets future)
[/quote]
Venus is a red herring. Lets compare;
One really can’t use Venus as an potential analog to Earth under run-away global warming.
[quote=phaster]given all the uncertainty, what revelle suggested (back when I took the course) is to look at trends/symptoms related to elevated CO2 levels[/quote]
[quote=phaster][quote]They found that the protein content of goldenrod pollen has declined by a third since the industrial revolution—and the change closely tracks with the rise in CO2.[/quote] [/quote]First year statistics students are warned that statistical correlation does not prove causation. Did they check for increased soil nitrogen due to increases in nitrous oxides? What about changes in precipitation?
NOTE: Did you try my suggested table with respect to global warming effect?
NOTE: Did you try the energy balance calcs wrt thermal energy being released through fossil and nuclear energy usage? Here is a hint on the thermodynamics hint I gave wrt to not being able to create nor destroy energy. When energy is applied to a system to put it into motion, and it is left run by itself until it comes to rest, all the energy that went into putting it into motion has been converted to heat. This means that all you need to do is look at the energy inputs on the system to see what the eventual thermal result is.
[quote=phaster]long story short, over the years I’m 99% certain that financial markets and corrupt/mismanaged instruments like public pension portfolios, collectively can act as a disruptive force to destroy the fabric of society (i.e. act like a “great filter” which is an idea put forth in the Fermi paradox)[/quote]Interesting statement. Considering the previous coverage on AGW, it would be interesting to consider motivation. Most people consider the motivations towards controlling CO2 to be altruistic, however there is a considerable amount of money behind it, particularly in the form of hedge funds. It is generally considered that the best possible long time returns are around what the S&P index funds return, which is between 10% to 13%. Most ‘aggressive’ funds want much more than that. Returns in the range of 10 years at 25% or more are only possible with large scale dynamic changes in economies (destroy or impact one and short it while benefiting another and going long there). Consider that the Kyoto Protocol does not put any restrictions on China nor India, and both of these countries have been major polluters in the past of both aerosols, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxides(acid rain) plus many heavy metals and poor water quality, it begs the question as to why and what is the real motivation for the Kyoto Protocol and the IPCC? In carbon dioxide alone, China is producing more than the US, Mexico, Canada, and all of Central and South America combined. China has also easily exceeded the US peak production of carbon dioxide by more than 25%. China’s emissions are currently increasing at 13+% per year, US is decreasing at 7% per year. India is increasing at 8.7% per year and almost exceeds all carbon dioxide production of Canada, Mexico and Central and South America combined, yet India is not impacted by Kyoto Protocol either.
If the environment was such a concern, why is it a fact that of nearly 7.7billion people on earth, more than 6 Billion dump untreated sewage into rivers, waterways and the ocean? Reo was processing less than 25% of its raw sewage at the time of the 2016 Olympics. The rest was dumped raw.
NOTE: I have seen claims of 50%, however an audit showed less than 25% with promises of it will be fixed soon.
NOTE: I have seen some quotes of only 1.6 Billion, however the actual number is closer 6 Billion. The US is approx 300 million, Europe is about 740 million, Japan 127 million, Taiwan is at about 24 million. Remove those and you are at 6.4 Billion. There is no large money to be made fixing this problem… so the big money is not interested.
My current theory on big money, is that they are now setting up to have India take over as the next growing market and starting to plan for the eventual collapse of China (NOTE: China’s debt is 2.5x GDP, the US is only about 1x GDP)
NOTE: I have heard of the Drake Equation, the problem with it is that it ‘fixes’ the level of tech for communication at the current level, looks primarily amount of intelligent signal produced. Right off the bat, true spread spectrum can’t be picked up as a readable signal. It looks like background noise (NOTE: I differentiate true spread spectrum as different from frequency hopping). Higher frequencies don’t always travel distances as well(bit energy is lower) – this was a problem with Pioneer as it moved further out. However, higher tech needs higher bandwidth. We are currently seeing a transition of data to fiber and cable. What if a higher tech planet communicates with entangle photons?
NOTE: Further on true spread spectrum – it was used during the Gulf War. News broadcasters on the ground, using receivers on the ground noticed a single tone followed by nothing. The tone was the sync, the ‘nothing’ was true spread spectrum signal. Unless you have the key, you can’t even pick up the signal to look at it.
May 4, 2018 @ 6:34 AM
huh,… “questions” >
huh,… “questions” > “answers”
might be time for me to revisit the topic to see if I bought into the global warming myth “long ago” (or perhaps not),… in any case should have selected my words more carefully when casually bring up venus which I’ll be the first to admit is vary different than earth in term of physical distance from the sun (i.e. < 1 AU), atmosphere made up of a majority of CO2, etc., hence the proverbial snow balls chance chance in hell earth is going to end up in the same "runaway" state w/ in the next 1,000,000 years also have to admit frank drakes equation is dated given the fact that the equation was penned in 1961 (well before the Big Bang was validated and the Steady State model was disfavored) then there is the aspect you mentioned about ability to even detect a signal, given spread spectrum technology, blah, blab, blah,... http://www.medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/the-drake-equation-is-broken-heres-how-to-fix-it-ae9466c3f53f
FWIW since we’re sorta discussing UCSD legions perhaps a discussion (or not) about Geoffrey Burbidge: Astrophysicist notorious for his rejection of the Big Bang theory
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/geoffrey-burbidge-astrophysicist-notorious-for-his-rejection-of-the-big-bang-theory-1953019.html
the idea of a quantum computer did cross my mind (long ago) which in theory given its ability to compute many states might be useful to see what effect the CO2 produced by humanity has on the planet,… DISCLOSURE the idea of building a computer like in the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy, also has crossed my mind
[quote=ucodegen]
[/quote]
PS interesting quote ya brought up attributed to revelle,… had seen it long ago and wondered about it for many, many, many years THEN came across an interesting post that filled in some back parts of the story,… palace intrigue as they say (w/ lot$ of money on the line going to the $ide that win$)
perhaps you might find this unsettling,… but truth seems to be that revelle quote you shared is actually a misdirection!!!
yeah I know it might be hard to believe so for you or anyone else interested,… put together a “highlighted” PDF (on google doc’s) showing the article from which the quote is taken AND included the “back story” of players close to revelle (i.e. one of his grad students who helped revelle get around,… like to the seminar class I happened to take ‘back in the day,’… AND the other is a “article” based on stuff revelle’s daughter said)
anyway while putting this PDF together realized its kinda mentally unhealthy how much time this wastes,… (personally don’t want to end up like CArenter posting on an obscure san diego real estate forum in the wee hours of the morning and losing sleep over stuff), so for the record I’m going to bow out of going down this alice in wonderland rabbit hole
but before that happens thought I’d share a few thoughts on other stuff,…
[quote=ucodegen]
My current theory on big money, is that they are now setting up to have India take over as the next growing market and starting to plan for the eventual collapse of China (NOTE: China’s debt is 2.5x GDP, the US is only about 1x GDP).[/quote]
yup I’ve looked at how china has printed up trillion$ since 2008 to keep the party going,… yet have also known their one child policy (starting decades ago) is going to be an economic drag in the future
as I mentioned in a prior post,… I tend to be risk adverse and personally favor investments w/ a “margin of safety” AND overall hope things work out for humanity but have to wonder for its long term future (given various issues)
May 4, 2018 @ 4:35 PM
phaster wrote:perhaps you
[quote=phaster]perhaps you might find this unsettling,… but truth seems to be that revelle quote you shared is actually a misdirection!!! [/quote]I would not say misdirection. I would say caution on creating a bandwagon and jumping on it. With respect to some of the statements whether Revelle actually contributed to the article, Look at the statement “Revelle was hoodwinked in my view”. That is opinion. Second problem is the statement “I was forced by a SLAPP suit to retract my statements….Likely to prevail at trial because..” Is a bit disingenuous. Considering that funding for pro-AGW was and is still strong, it would have been easy to muster a defense and finances. PS: I tried to go to the references, which are indicated as links, but they don’t seem to work (correction – the red ones seem to work). Here is an interesting link on it that seems to indicate the so called SLAPP lawsuit was actually a defamation lawsuit against Lancaster. http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/0817939326_283.pdf see numbered page(not actual) 290, 291. Actual pages 8,9. The whole pdf is of interest though.
Revelle’s study was on carbon dioxide update in ocean waters being potentially slower than that initially thought. Another carbon dioxide sink has been misjudged. The uptake in carbon dioxide in plants seems to be faster than initially thought, and has accelerated with increased carbon dioxide (most commercial greenhouses would not have been surprised by this since they introduce carbon dioxide to the greenhouse to accelerate growth). Disagreeing with carbon dioxide being a primary climate driver does not mean that someone is against the environment, though the current climate on climate makes it that way. In the process environmentalism can get usurped and twisted to chase problems that may not be real or as critical as we thought and ignoring some very real problems in the process.
The reason I mentioned the greenhouse gas eXcel table is that the results, if done honestly and accurately makes a person sit back and go hummm.. I might post a snap of the table on this thread. Also take a look at the history of Owens valley and look at old pictures and current. Another one to look at is the history of the land at the foot of the San Bernardino mountains and the change in the mountain weather corresponding to changes in land usage at the foot of the mountains. Mill Creek used to have quite a bit of water coming down it, all the way into June and July. The turn off for Valley of the Falls and Service Road 1S08 used to be regularly washed out. Interesting side note: When the topic for best non-fictional came up and I was going to post. However, I saw where the it was headed and walked away. I would have hadded “the San Gabriels, the San Gabriels II amongst a few others.
[quote=phaster]anyway while putting this PDF together realized its kinda mentally unhealthy how much time this wastes,… (personally don’t want to end up like CArenter posting on an obscure san diego real estate forum in the wee hours of the morning and losing sleep over stuff), so for the record I’m going to bow out of going down this alice in wonderland rabbit hole [/quote]That is why you sometimes see me disappear from this board. Sometimes it is about choosing between this board and the nice weather outside, a good hike, beautiful sunset, friends, time doing what couples do.. etc. I like it for opening the mind, but keeping the discussion on the constructive/informative does take time – much more time than just popping off.
[quote=phaster]yup I’ve looked at how china has printed up trillion$ since 2008 to keep the party going,… yet have also known their one child policy (starting decades ago) is going to be an economic drag in the future[/quote]
I think they have eased their one child policy, however I think there may be a bigger psychological issue with the one child policy. It creates a nation with many ‘little emperors’, all wanting to be in charge and have it easy. A Chinese couples one child is precious and tends to be pampered. This tends to create a ‘brittle’ personality which is volatile when confronted or contradicted.
[quote=phaster]overall hope things work out for humanity but have to wonder for its long term future (given various issues)[/quote]Same here, though my biggest worry has been on the current nature of discussions where extreme positions on both sides gets more attention than reasoned discussion. I also deplore the current state of ad-hominem attacks in lieu of discourse. In my mind’s eye, I see the current MSM and fringe sitting at the side after helping to stir the pot – yelling fight-fight-fight.
April 27, 2018 @ 7:09 AM
flu wrote:ucodegen wrote:
re:
[quote=flu][quote=ucodegen]
re: flu/this thread
It is funny unless you are a target, particularly of some forms of Trolling. CA renter has handled it incorrectly, sometimes getting a bit long winded and taking it personally instead of disengaging emotions and thinking about what is really happening when addressing statements and then taking the approach of addressing intent instead of specifics.[/quote]
I’m not laughing at the CAR.
I’m laughing at all responses blowing this way out into left field, not at anyone one specific person. The moment this thread started and about 3-4 threads into it (and the other one about pensions), how would this thread end up other than they way it did?
Many of the threads started these days is just to stir up the pot. Why out of all the forums that exist all over internet, for example, do people choose to vent about politics, public policy, etc, here? Simple. Because anywhere else, the user(s) would have been banned a long time ago and those want eyeballs. I would think if trolling politics is really your thing, go camp out on Breitbart and piss off people there.
Anyway, it’s entertaining…almost as entertaining as posts on Nextdoor. miataturbo.net is not nearly as much fun to read. People get banned just for asking stupid questions, lol.[/quote]
I can tell you why this site has more political discussions than a car thread, etc. It’s because economics (the housing market is a component of the economy, and Rich’s site has “econo-almanac” in its name) and politics are inextricably intertwined. One doesn’t really exist without the other.
Let’s face it, politics affect every single thing in our lives — the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the shampoos and soaps we use (are they poisonous or not?), the housing structures we live in, the job market and how it’s structured, how money and power are allocated, healthcare, retirement, etc., etc. It’s all politics.
In order to avoid politics, you have to ignore how the system operates and only focus on the superficial parts (like just watching sports or movies for fun, without thinking about tax policies for these industries, or how they are used to shape our social narrative, etc.).
April 27, 2018 @ 7:32 AM
CA renter wrote:
I can tell
[quote=CA renter]
I can tell you why this site has more political discussions than a car thread, etc. It’s because economics (the housing market is a component of the economy, and Rich’s site has “econo-almanac” in its name) [/quote]
The automotive industry is also a component of the economy.
[quote=CA renter]
Let’s face it, politics affect every single thing in our lives — the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the shampoos and soaps we use (are they poisonous or not?),
[/quote]
And by your own admission above, politics affects every single thing in our lives. That would include the automotive industry.
So you argued both sides of the argument in this post – that the housing market is tied to politics but cars aren’t, and that both the housing market and cars are tied to politics. Pick a side!
April 27, 2018 @ 7:58 AM
svelte wrote:CA renter
[quote=svelte][quote=CA renter]
I can tell you why this site has more political discussions than a car thread, etc. It’s because economics (the housing market is a component of the economy, and Rich’s site has “econo-almanac” in its name) [/quote]
The automotive industry is also a component of the economy.
[quote=CA renter]
Let’s face it, politics affect every single thing in our lives — the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the shampoos and soaps we use (are they poisonous or not?),
[/quote]
And by your own admission above, politics affects every single thing in our lives. That would include the automotive industry.
So you argued both sides of the argument in this post – that the housing market is tied to politics but cars aren’t, and that both the housing market and cars are tied to politics. Pick a side![/quote]
Fair enough. 🙂 One can discuss housing in terms of granite countertops, number of bedrooms, layout, design, etc. But since housing is a much bigger part of a person’s economic life, we do tend to pay more attention to the long-term effects of housing on our economic life. Additionally, where we live affects so much in our lives — whether the neighborhood is clean, safe, convenient to transportation (and types of transportation), schools, parks, self-perception (moreso than cars, IMHO), etc. Politics affects all of these things, and more. People tend to get much more involved when politics affect their housing values, quality of life, etc.; they tend to go a bit deeper into the subject.
People usually just pay attention to the economic side of the car issue when they initially purchase a car. They usually don’t spend as much time worrying about depreciation, etc. Most people (not car buffs) focus more on the superficial aspect of car ownership, a bit like the sports/entertainment part of my post.
But the roads, smog laws, interest rates/financing options, etc. are all very political, and my guess would be that these issues are indeed discussed on many car sites/blogs. Perhaps those are the people who are getting banned from these sites?
April 27, 2018 @ 8:21 AM
This survey doesn’t make any
This survey doesn’t make any sense.
If we’re to stand on principles, it should not be a popularity contest.
CAr, it’s is pretty nutty to believe that you were targeted. That’s why you easily believe in conspiracies. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s
April 27, 2018 @ 8:50 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:This survey
[quote=FlyerInHi]This survey doesn’t make any sense.
If we’re to stand on principles, it should not be a popularity contest.
CAr, it’s is pretty nutty to believe that you were targeted. That’s why you easily believe in conspiracies. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s[/quote]
The poll wasn’t based on a popularity contest. Let me state this once again: The issue was Pri’s regular habit of claiming that people said things that they never said — and he would often use the quote feature to fill in his words to make it look like someone else had written a particular statement (always to defame the other poster).
It was always about principles. There is nothing nutty about it, and your repeatedly asserting your nonsensical opinions about conspiracy theories isn’t bolstering your case.
April 29, 2018 @ 4:26 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:….. It
[quote=FlyerInHi]….. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s[/quote]
This thread and others would suggest he speaks from experience.
April 30, 2018 @ 10:12 AM
njtosd wrote:FlyerInHi
[quote=njtosd][quote=FlyerInHi]….. It does get worse with age and Alzheimer’s[/quote]
This thread and others would suggest he speaks from experience.[/quote]
Yes, other people’s experiences.
I’m determined to avoid the pitfalls of aging. That begins with being adaptable and young at heart. I’m more adaptable as time goes by. i don’t get attached to house or a certain way of life. .
April 22, 2018 @ 7:46 AM
interesting vote
interesting vote result(s),… anyone else note this kinda mirrors the political divide of the nation
[img_assist|nid=26591|title=vote results mirror nation|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=50]
since I have not voted, have to ask what is a vote worth?
figure this is an opportunity to conduct an economic experiment of sorts (based on something flu posted awhile ago,…) AND raise money for charity
[quote=flu]
July 17, 2016 – 10:14pm
Man, remind me never to hang out with folks like you. It’s not that I don’t value actual insight, positive or negative. I do. It’s just I don’t understand some of you that are so fixated with your beliefs that you can’t really think objectively in the only thing that matters…. “How can I make money?”
https://piggington.com/investing_municipal_bond_funds?page=1#comment-269687
[/quote]
the charity part comes into in that the proceeds of winning bid goes to charity of chose of the winning bidder
as they say,… money talks, bull$hit walks
PS if you think I pulled this idea out of thin air, actually this idea is kinda based on PBS videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWh3Y5OyN34
http://video.mpt.tv/video/2365353075/
April 22, 2018 @ 8:32 AM
phaster wrote:
flu
[quote=phaster]
[quote=flu]
July 17, 2016 – 10:14pm
Man, remind me never to hang out with folks like you. It’s not that I don’t value actual insight, positive or negative. I do. It’s just I don’t understand some of you that are so fixated with your beliefs that you can’t really think objectively in the only thing that matters…. “How can I make money?”
https://piggington.com/investing_municipal_bond_funds?page=1#comment-269687
[/quote]
[/quote]
The quote above just shows how narrow minded some people are. Making money has nothing to do with beliefs. The owner of occidental pretroleum was a communist who later supported republicans. You don’t need to give up your money to believe in social equity. In fact, we all need to make money. The more money we have the better we can advance our goals whatever they may be.
People who say “give up your money if you believe in higher taxes” are just intellectually challenged.
April 20, 2018 @ 8:08 PM
huh,… FWIW
sdgrrl
huh,… FWIW
[quote=sdgrrl]
August 11, 2016 – 10:25pm
…I think a majority of members on Rick’s site think they are more intelligent than most of the population, sophisticated with money and knowledgeable about political and global issues.
This often creates a clash of egos, and alpha personalities start coming out.
Good show.
https://piggington.com/ot_bearishgurl_should_clean_her_act_or_go?page=1#comment-270599
[/quote]
but the clashing “personality types” AND “drama” distraction(s)
[quote=CA renter]
April 20, 2018 – 3:16am
…Pri has, once again, intentionally and maliciously attempted to make it look like I said something, via the quote feature, that was never stated.
…I also suspect him of being responsible for the attempts to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington
[/quote]
does nothing to change the basic fact,
[quote=FlyerInHi]
CArenter likes to mention the intricacies of municipal finances when convenient. However, according to her, if we just get rid of Prop 13 and Mexican kids, the money will somehow flow directly to pension funds.
Of course, it’s all about protecting the benefits of retirees,…
https://piggington.com/why_are_states_so_strapped_cash_there_are_two_big_reasons#comment-280732
[/quote]
PROOF!?
[quote=phaster][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=CA renter]For the record, California’s high income tax rate, high fees, etc. are the result of Prop 13. The state lost billions in revenues when Prop 13 passed, so they had to make it up elsewhere.
And since you’re so concerned about taxpayers and the health of state/county/city finances, have you paid back your unearned tax subsidies, yet?[/quote]
You just obviated any argument to repeal prop 13. If the lost billions have been made up, a repeal of prop 13 would amount to a huge tax increase. No way Jose.[/quote]
sigh,… let’s all take another walk down memory lane
[quote=CA renter]
September 4, 2014 – 6:04pm
I don’t get distracted by non-economic issues where politics are concerned. That’s not to say that these issues are unimportant, but that they pale in comparison to economics.
[/quote]
[quote=CA renter]
October 1, 2014 – 9:23pm
Yes, I’ve been following the pension issue for many, many years (far, far, far longer than you have), and I have also worked with negotiating committees and have done research for public employee unions.
https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded_pensions_affect_economy?page=3#comment-247382
[/quote]
[quote=CA phaster]
October 22, 2016 – 8:30am
[quote=CA renter]
October 9, 2016 – 1:07am
BTW, you’re not educating or informing anyone of anything. The pension issue was beaten to death LONG before you ever came into the picture.
[/quote]
really???
https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded_pensions_affect_economy?page=5#comment-262974
https://piggington.com/how_will_unfunded_pensions_affect_economy?page=6#comment-264989
[/quote]
for the record, have to say the inability to recognize basic middle school math concepts and their importance as it relates to managing money, sadly isn’t an isolated case,… seems there is a pandemic of being morally and intellectually bankrupt (i.e. dishonest and dumb) WRT basic finance,… perhaps the root cause is some kind of political self interest???
having said my piece, now let’s go back and review (yet again) the basic math concepts which are key to understanding the local pension portfolio “mismanagement”
for three decades plus, the local public pension portfolio custodians (i.e. politicians) have allowed giving away a 13th pension payment (off balance sheet),… basically this is akin to a 13th mortgage payment on a property (which shortens the pay off period and decreases the over-all interest paid), BUT in this case things work in reverse,… in other words the pension debt obligation will increase over time
http://www.TinyURL.com/SanDiegoSpikingPension
compounding this basic middle school math “error” is public employ leadership (i.e. public pension recipients) who see no problem w/ not requiring fully funding the portfolio,… this action basically is akin to only paying a “minimum credit card payment” but its important to note that things here are happening on a SUPER SIZED scale!!!
http://www.TinyURL.com/PensionRebuttal
AND let’s not forget we are where we are because those responsible for causing this money management mess are basically morally and intellectually challenged (i.e. dishonest and dumb)
bottom line,… given the “California rule” which implies the tax payers are the designated financial backstop for this whole mess,… means eventually there are some serious consequences for local residents AND if the problem(s) is widespread perhaps it might have serious consequences for civilization as a whole,…
http://www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay
PS one last general observation,… the background knowledge needed to model something as complex/chaotic as climate change or the economy, requires deep knowledge of various fields of study along w/ a basic understanding of how things interact,… what I find ironic is more often than not is politicians and various activists who claim leadership roles,… have in fact the least background knowledge that is required to understand the big picture
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/04/13/602269482/congress-does-not-compute
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2013/01/17/an-awesome-diagram-of-the-113th-congress/
[/quote]
PS remember “tomorrow” is when we **cough** commercially celebrate earth day
http://www.earthdayweb.org/EarthFair.html
which should be a reminder to avoid stuff like,…
April 20, 2018 @ 10:59 PM
.
.
April 20, 2018 @ 10:55 AM
I would go for ban if it
I would go for ban if it turns out they are the same individual shilling as separate posters. There is a way to tell – I can show Rich T. (outside of word structure, use of words etc – analysis). It is done at the web server, does not use cookies and does not rely on IP addr. The signal/noise ratio has been very low from these posters. I don’t like the idea of a ban, but shilling as different individuals corrupts the structure of discourse by creating the ability to ‘snowjob’ another poster by creating what looks like posts supportive of a position from different posters – who in actuality are the same poster.
April 20, 2018 @ 1:41 PM
ucodegen wrote:I would go for
[quote=ucodegen]I would go for ban if it turns out they are the same individual shilling as separate posters. There is a way to tell – I can show Rich T. (outside of word structure, use of words etc – analysis). It is done at the web server, does not use cookies and does not rely on IP addr. The signal/noise ratio has been very low from these posters. I don’t like the idea of a ban, but shilling as different individuals corrupts the structure of discourse by creating the ability to ‘snowjob’ another poster by creating what looks like posts supportive of a position from different posters – who in actuality are the same poster.[/quote]
That would be like creating a fictitious identity to represent oneself as one’s own agent and/or supporter. To make believe that there is a third party giving an objective viewpoint. Yeah, a person like that is definitely a slime ball.
April 21, 2018 @ 7:03 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:
That would
[quote=FlyerInHi]
That would be like creating a fictitious identity to represent oneself as one’s own agent and/or supporter. To make believe that there is a third party giving an objective viewpoint. Yeah, a person like that is definitely a slime ball.[/quote]
Yeah, like creating a brand new handle so one can continue to post on piggington, after being banned by Rich with one’s first handle…right Briansd?
rotflol
April 21, 2018 @ 7:04 AM
flu wrote:FlyerInHi
[quote=flu][quote=FlyerInHi]
That would be like creating a fictitious identity to represent oneself as one’s own agent and/or supporter. To make believe that there is a third party giving an objective viewpoint. Yeah, a person like that is definitely a slime ball.[/quote]
Yeah, like creating a brand new handle so one can continue to post on piggington, after being banned by Rich with one’s first handle…right Briansd?
rotflol[/quote]
Whatever happened to Fat Lazy Union?
That guy was a hoot!
April 20, 2018 @ 2:25 PM
Uh, you guys do know that
Uh, you guys do know that gogo has posted a total of five times, ever? (Including the response to this thread.)
And I’d love to hear how I hacked into someone’s webcam through a real estate blog. I’ll need someone with some tech skills to explain how I pulled off that trick.
(BTW, does accusing another poster of a serious crime without a shred of evidence “corrupt the structure of discourse”?)
But let the accuser explain how she is so sure of her claims.
Be a good Pigg, and bring some data.
April 20, 2018 @ 6:50 PM
harvey wrote:
And I’d love to
[quote=harvey]
And I’d love to hear how I hacked into someone’s webcam through a real estate blog. I’ll need someone with some tech skills to explain how I pulled off that trick.[/quote]
Harvey, you may have skipped a dose on your meds. CA renter never said that ‘you‘ hacked their Email. CA renter said ‘someone’. proof:
[quote=CA renter](And it might just be a coincidence, but someone has tried to access my computer’s microphone and camera through Piggington. I do *not* believe that it is Rich.)[/quote]
Comment number 280690 on the ‘Countering Disinformation And Propagation Act’ thread – bottom of their comment. The direct links to comments don’t work, however it would be the 3rd comment down on the 5th page.
I was aware of that same problem and had tracked it down to Google’s advertisement services and ‘Search’, which can include voice activated/controlled search. If you look through the HTML for the pages, you will see the call to googlesyndication.com (for advertisement) and google.com (for search function). I didn’t say anything at the time because Rich T. had it handled before I had time to construct a reply.
April 20, 2018 @ 6:57 PM
dup
dup
April 21, 2018 @ 1:14 AM
You all do realize this is an
You all do realize this is an insignificant thread in a back alley cob-webbed corner of the internet.
Right?
April 21, 2018 @ 6:55 AM
With this much drama, I had
With this much drama, I had to check I wasn’t visiting miataturbo.net!
April 21, 2018 @ 7:00 AM
Yes, we serve popcorn at
Yes, we serve popcorn at piggington webcam cinemas!
April 21, 2018 @ 7:11 AM
I am sorry Harvey, are you
I am sorry Harvey, are you saying something?
It seems I only see your handle, but can’t see any text underneath it.
Was it about engineering minimum wage?
no wait….. pensions, must be about pensions….
no wait….. Donald Trump?????
no wait….I know i know ALT right religious right…
no wait, about progressives are so much more
enlightened and refined….oh sorry, that’s Brian….
lololol
April 21, 2018 @ 7:24 AM
(No subject)
April 21, 2018 @ 7:23 AM
I don’t know why people talk
I don’t know why people talk about banning on this website.
First, most people have already left.
Second, there is an ignore button.
The sort of vitriolic posts is exactly the sort of forum that probably the remaining majority of frequent posters want.
But here these days, at least, it’s cheaper than picking up a copy of the National Enquirer and it’s an abridged version of the Jerry Springer show.
Miss you AN, sdrealtor, SD Realtor, cdmaengineer, etc etc etc.
I guess all good things eventually come to an end… kinda like both Audi and Porsche pulling out of the 24 hours of LeMans.
April 21, 2018 @ 7:30 AM
Sorry Harvey, you are going
Sorry Harvey, you are going to have to speak looooouder and sloooooweer….
I still can’t hear you….must be my old age …..
What’s that about Donald Trump?????
April 21, 2018 @ 7:35 AM
No, I just post every hour
No, I just post every hour the stock market is down.
We should be happy right?
April 22, 2018 @ 11:05 AM
.
.
April 22, 2018 @ 10:54 PM
This thread…..
This thread…..
April 23, 2018 @ 12:54 PM
Leaving aside the thing about
Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” I should do it in needlepoint on a pillow :). Harvey is a mean guy – no point in wasting your breath.
April 23, 2018 @ 1:16 PM
njtosd wrote:Leaving aside
[quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone [/quote]
Can you really leave that aside? That goes to the crux of this thread, CAr’s frame of mind. Perhaps she feels targeted but it’s all mocking and parody.
If I recall, CAr has criticized monorities who get easily offended. And now she wants to carve out her own safe space.
April 23, 2018 @ 2:15 PM
njtosd wrote:Leaving aside
[quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” I should do it in needlepoint on a pillow :). Harvey is a mean guy – no point in wasting your breath.[/quote]
Lol, “Leaving aside the absurd lies in the accusation…”
But point taken. We just need to stop being “mean” and start making bizarre unfounded accusations in order to restore the decorum.
Of course that’s not how ethical behavior works. We don’t get to “leave aside” the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room.
Oh, since you just called me a name – an actual ad hominem, I better check my webcam logs…
April 24, 2018 @ 6:31 AM
harvey wrote:njtosd
[quote=harvey][quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” I should do it in needlepoint on a pillow :). Harvey is a mean guy – no point in wasting your breath.[/quote]
Lol, “Leaving aside the absurd lies in the accusation…”
But point taken. We just need to stop being “mean” and start making bizarre unfounded accusations in order to restore the decorum.
Of course that’s not how ethical behavior works. We don’t get to “leave aside” the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room.
Oh, since you just called me a name – an actual ad hominem, I better check my webcam logs…[/quote]
You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. My suspicions are not at all unfounded.
But you’ve done, yet again, what you always do…diverted attention from the main issue being discussed. What caused me to start this thread wasn’t the camera/mic thing, but the fact that you regularly, intentionally, and maliciously misquote other posters, and you regularly state (without the quote feature) that they’ve said things that were never said. Abusing the quote feature in the manner that you do is totally unethical and inexcusable; some would argue that it’s illegal because of the clear intent to defame innocent posters. You’ve seriously degraded the quality of interactions on this site and caused many good posters to leave. This, in itself, is why you should be banned.
April 24, 2018 @ 6:43 AM
CA renter wrote:You’re the
[quote=CA renter]You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. [/quote]
Another ad hominem. Typical.
But there is a bigger concern.
Someone reversed the direction of the toilet paper roll in my master bathroom.
I suspect it was CAR because she has been attacking me lately, and even went so far as starting a thread to have me banned. Her reactions to my posts have been very hostile and odd.
I always load the toilet paper as an “under” – but yesterday after my morning piggington read and coffee, nature called me into the toilet where I found this:
If there was some random serial TP flipper (not sure of correct terminology here) out there, then wouldn’t everyone else see their TP reversed? I would like to know if other people have seen their TP flipped. If everyone else has the same issue, then that would indicate that I was not specifically targeted.
But if nobody else (or most others) didn’t have this toilet paper issue, would it not seem logical that I was specifically targeted? If so, by whom? It’s not at all paranoid to want to find out who’s responsible. I’ve outlined clearly why CAR would be the first one to suspect from my end.
There is no paranoia here. Someone did actually flip the TP in my master bathroom– the photo/evidence is posted right here. It is also important to note that I have NEVER given any person permission to access my master bathroom, and have always locked the door when taking a dump.
April 24, 2018 @ 1:33 PM
harvey wrote:
Someone
[quote=harvey]
Someone reversed the direction of the toilet paper roll in my master bathroom.
I suspect it was CAR because she has been attacking me lately, and even went so far as starting a thread to have me banned. Her reactions to my posts have been very hostile and odd.[/quote] Damn, now I know where my Tesseract went.
April 24, 2018 @ 7:07 AM
Here you go, yet again.
CA
Here you go, yet again.
[quote=CA renter]
You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. My suspicions are not at all unfounded.
But you’ve done, yet again, what you always do…diverted attention from the main issue being discussed. What caused me to start this thread wasn’t the camera/mic thing, but the fact that you regularly, intentionally, and maliciously misquote other posters, and you regularly state (without the quote feature) that they’ve said things that were never said. Abusing the quote feature in the manner that you do is totally unethical and inexcusable; some would argue that it’s illegal because of the clear intent to defame innocent posters. You’ve seriously degraded the quality of interactions on this site and caused many good posters to leave. This, in itself, is why you should be banned.[/quote]
April 24, 2018 @ 7:15 AM
CA renter wrote:You’re the
[quote=CA renter]You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri.[/quote]
April 23, 2018 @ 2:19 PM
njtosd wrote:Leaving aside
[quote=njtosd]Leaving aside the thing about the camera and the microphone – this exchange reminds me of something my mother used to say “Don’t get into a shitting match with a skunk.” [/quote]
lol
April 23, 2018 @ 3:13 PM
lol give the number of
lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….
April 23, 2018 @ 3:53 PM
flu wrote:lol give the number
[quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.
April 24, 2018 @ 6:21 AM
If someone tried to access my
If someone tried to access my camera and microphone via some Google script (not sure of correct terminology here) on Piggington, then wouldn’t everyone else be able to see this on their computers? I would like to know if other people have seen this on their computers. If everyone else has the same issue, then that would indicate that I was not specifically targeted.
But if nobody else (or most others) didn’t have this camera/mic issue, would it not seem logical that I was specifically targeted? If so, by whom? It’s not at all paranoid to want to find out who’s responsible. I’ve outlined clearly why Pri would be the first one to suspect from my end.
There is no paranoia here. Someone did try to access my microphone and camera via Piggington — the screen capture/evidence is posted on the other thread. It is also important to note that I have NEVER given any program or person permission to access my camera/mic, and have always blocked any kind of remote access to my computer.
April 24, 2018 @ 9:59 AM
CA renter wrote:
There is no
[quote=CA renter]
There is no paranoia here. Someone did try to access my microphone and camera via Piggington — the screen capture/evidence is posted on the other thread. It is also important to note that I have NEVER given any program or person permission to access my camera/mic, and have always blocked any kind of remote access to my computer.[/quote]
There is plenty of paranoia.
Trust me, there was never anyone via Piggington. Some script was running and that was reported by whatever program you’re using. Pretty simple, really.
Also, if you use or have ever used Kaperski, the Russians are probably on to you. And they will never let go. Be careful.
April 24, 2018 @ 1:26 PM
FlyerInHi wrote:flu wrote:lol
[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.[/quote]
Umm, I do computers – not biology, so I don’t know much about nerves. Therefore I really can’t assess the quoted ‘this‘ post above.
April 24, 2018 @ 3:34 PM
ucodegen wrote:FlyerInHi
[quote=ucodegen][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.[/quote]
Umm, I do computers – not biology, so I don’t know much about nerves. Therefore I really can’t assess the quoted ‘this‘ post above.[/quote]
Ucodegen, computer wise, if one ignores posters, can one see responses to one’s posts?
April 25, 2018 @ 10:37 AM
FlyerInHi wrote:ucodegen
[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=ucodegen][quote=FlyerInHi][quote=flu]lol give the number of responses of unknown content, I’d say I’m doing a pretty good job striking a nerve …. or three… lol….[/quote]
I know that ucodegen has a lot of computer knowledge. I’d love to see his objective assessment of this post.[/quote]
Umm, I do computers – not biology, so I don’t know much about nerves. Therefore I really can’t assess the quoted ‘this‘ post above.[/quote]
Ucodegen, computer wise, if one ignores posters, can one see responses to one’s posts?[/quote]
Yes, including the ignored poster’s posts. Remember Rich changed the web engine on Piggington a while back and it does not completely/or correctly hide ignored posts. For a while it looked like it was fixed, but now it seems to be ‘un’fixed. – is that what you are talking about?
April 24, 2018 @ 9:02 AM
(No subject)
April 25, 2018 @ 9:57 PM
Some quick thoughts, first on
Some quick thoughts, first on the camera thing:
– It has now been confirmed to my satisfaction that it has to do with Google ads and/or search (see: https://piggington.com/ot_should_pridkharveygogogosandiego_be_banned#comment-280741 ) — thank you ucodegen
– For the record there is no way an individual piggington user could do this. Unless they are admins (of which I am the only one), or they’ve somehow hacked the site (doesn’t seem like a good use of time), all they can post is comments and forum topics, and those only allow a limited set of html tags for formatting.
Onto the main topic. Again, random thoughts:
– This type of thread seems to pop up from time to time but, for what it’s worth (as far as I can remember anyway), they have no impact on who actually gets banned.
– Also: pretty much nobody gets banned. This site has just one rule (no political threadjacks). I had to ban a few regular violators back in the day but it’s been a while.
– One such violator came back as FlyerInHI; I let him stay. I question this decision on a routine basis. But he’s pretty well behaved now so I have gone with the flow so far.
– As far as harvey is concerned, yes, he is combative and can be mean-spirited. But also he is smart and funny and posts a lot of interesting comments. He has never broken the no threadjack rule. Yeah, I wish he were nicer to people, but I don’t feel it’s right to ban him.
– In general I don’t want to ban people for their personality traits. (Boy, that would be a slippery slope on this forum).
– I don’t want to ban people at all, really. That’s probably obvious at this point.
– CA Renter will argue passionately about her views, but she is really an extremely nice person. So, be nice to her, even if you disagree with her.
– Everyone be nice to everyone! It’s just not that hard.
– That is not some new forum rule (which would be miserable to try to enforce). Just a request and maybe a not-so-bad rule of thumb.
Carry on…
April 26, 2018 @ 6:31 AM
Rich Toscano wrote:Some quick
[quote=Rich Toscano]Some quick thoughts, first on the camera thing:
– It has now been confirmed to my satisfaction that it has to do with Google ads and/or search (see: https://piggington.com/ot_should_pridkharveygogogosandiego_be_banned#comment-280741 ) — thank you ucodegen
– For the record there is no way an individual piggington user could do this. Unless they are admins (of which I am the only one), or they’ve somehow hacked the site (doesn’t seem like a good use of time), all they can post is comments and forum topics, and those only allow a limited set of html tags for formatting.
Onto the main topic. Again, random thoughts:
– This type of thread seems to pop up from time to time but, for what it’s worth (as far as I can remember anyway), they have no impact on who actually gets banned.
– Also: pretty much nobody gets banned. This site has just one rule (no political threadjacks). I had to ban a few regular violators back in the day but it’s been a while.
– One such violator came back as FlyerInHI; I let him stay. I question this decision on a routine basis. But he’s pretty well behaved now so I have gone with the flow so far.
– As far as harvey is concerned, yes, he is combative and can be mean-spirited. But also he is smart and funny and posts a lot of interesting comments. He has never broken the no threadjack rule. Yeah, I wish he were nicer to people, but I don’t feel it’s right to ban him.
– In general I don’t want to ban people for their personality traits. (Boy, that would be a slippery slope on this forum).
– I don’t want to ban people at all, really. That’s probably obvious at this point.
– CA Renter will argue passionately about her views, but she is really an extremely nice person. So, be nice to her, even if you disagree with her.
– Everyone be nice to everyone! It’s just not that hard.
– That is not some new forum rule (which would be miserable to try to enforce). Just a request and maybe a not-so-bad rule of thumb.
Carry on…[/quote]
Rich,
The camera accusation really is the main topic. It goes far beyond the issue of politeness and decorum.
She specifically accused me of making a concerted effort to violate her personal privacy (without even a hint of evidence connecting it to anybody in particular.)
Arguing passionately is one thing, but do you believe someone crosses a line when they make unfounded accusations of creepy criminal behavior?
I’m not asking you to do anything about it. I understand we can safely dismiss these accusations as benign hysterics. (It may have been a ploy to get you to expose my identity, but I was not worried that anyone would fall for such a lame social engineering trick.)
But whatever the motivation, it sure as hell is not the actions of a “nice person.”
April 26, 2018 @ 8:24 AM
You can believe nutty things
You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.
April 26, 2018 @ 4:06 PM
Rich Toscano wrote:You can
[quote=Rich Toscano]You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.[/quote]
I agree.
But of course my question was about unfounded personal accusations. There’s a material difference.
Despite the fact that I’ve once again trounced CAR in debate, her childish tantrum was ultimately successful.
CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.
For years her posts labeled me as “misinformed”, “illogical”, “unintelligent”, etc. in the usual style of a stubborn but weak debate opponent.
But recently and rather quickly it has escalated to “paid troll”, “multiple accounts”, “webcam hacking” …
I know that there’s little chance that her brand of crazy would develop into actual danger, but there’s no point in taking the chance with an internet weirdo. I’ve got a wife, kids, a dog … I even have friends!
The wise decision is to no longer participate in the nutty things that go on here.
Rich, please deactivate my account and delete my posting history if it’s not too much trouble.
(Leave this post up a little longer though, so I can take my victory lap…)
April 27, 2018 @ 6:49 AM
harvey wrote:Rich Toscano
[quote=harvey][quote=Rich Toscano]You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.[/quote]
I agree.
But of course my question was about unfounded personal accusations. There’s a material difference.
Despite the fact that I’ve once again trounced CAR in debate, her childish tantrum was ultimately successful.
CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.
For years her posts labeled me as “misinformed”, “illogical”, “unintelligent”, etc. in the usual style of a stubborn but weak debate opponent.
But recently and rather quickly it has escalated to “paid troll”, “multiple accounts”, “webcam hacking” …
I know that there’s little chance that her brand of crazy would develop into actual danger, but there’s no point in taking the chance with an internet weirdo. I’ve got a wife, kids, a dog … I even have friends!
The wise decision is to no longer participate in the nutty things that go on here.
Rich, please deactivate my account and delete my posting history if it’s not too much trouble.
(Leave this post up a little longer though, so I can take my victory lap…)[/quote]
LOL! You’ve trounced nothing, Pri. And you still haven’t addressed the reason why I posted this poll in the first place. This is the third time I’ve posted this:
[quote=CA renter]Here you go, yet again.
[quote=CA renter]
You’re the massive pile of shit in the middle of the room, Pri. My suspicions are not at all unfounded.
But you’ve done, yet again, what you always do…diverted attention from the main issue being discussed. What caused me to start this thread wasn’t the camera/mic thing, but the fact that you regularly, intentionally, and maliciously misquote other posters, and you regularly state (without the quote feature) that they’ve said things that were never said. Abusing the quote feature in the manner that you do is totally unethical and inexcusable; some would argue that it’s illegal because of the clear intent to defame innocent posters. You’ve seriously degraded the quality of interactions on this site and caused many good posters to leave. This, in itself, is why you should be banned.[/quote][/quote]
It’s not the least bit “crazy” or “paranoid” or “nutty” to be concerned when someone tries to hack a person’s camera and microphone. And it’s not “crazy” to question whether the person responsible for the possible hack is the creep who’s been chasing me around the website in a very deliberate and viscious attempt to troll, harass, and defame me.
But it’s very interesting that you’ve asked Rich to deactivate your account and delete your posting history. I don’t remember anyone ever doing that before. Did you get scared off by people pointing out the defamation issue to you? Many people have come and gone here; they just fade away. There was never a need for Rich to delete people’s posting histories. What makes you so special? What are you trying to hide? LOL!
And your nonsense about a wife and kids. Holy shit, Pri…you’re calling me crazy?
And the irony in this statement is over the top:
“CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.”
You’ve been chasing me around this site for years, and it is well known that you are the one who instigates all of the personal attacks. Stop acting like you’re suddenly a victim just because I called you out on your BS.
BTW, it’s very easy to ascertain whether or not I was specifically targeted. People just need to look at which sites have requested permission to access their microphones and cameras. If it’s a problem with a Google script, then it should show up on everyone’s computers. If it doesn’t show up on other posters’ computers, then I was specifically targeted.
April 27, 2018 @ 8:46 AM
CA renter wrote:
BTW, it’s
[quote=CA renter]
BTW, it’s very easy to ascertain whether or not I was specifically targeted. People just need to look at which sites have requested permission to access their microphones and cameras. If it’s a problem with a Google script, then it should show up on everyone’s computers. If it doesn’t show up on other posters’ computers, then I was specifically targeted.[/quote]
CAR, I’ve told you multiple times now that what you are proposing is not technically possible. It’s been verified in this thread that the camera access was due to an accessibility feature of the Google search function. You were not “targeted” by anyone. Please — enough of these wild accusations.
April 27, 2018 @ 9:12 AM
Rich Toscano wrote:CA renter
[quote=Rich Toscano][quote=CA renter]
BTW, it’s very easy to ascertain whether or not I was specifically targeted. People just need to look at which sites have requested permission to access their microphones and cameras. If it’s a problem with a Google script, then it should show up on everyone’s computers. If it doesn’t show up on other posters’ computers, then I was specifically targeted.[/quote]
CAR, I’ve told you multiple times now that what you are proposing is not technically possible. It’s been verified in this thread that the camera access was due to an accessibility feature of the Google search function. You were not “targeted” by anyone. Please — enough of these wild accusations.[/quote]
You had initially stated that you didn’t see any suspicious code when you first looked into it.
[quote=Rich Toscano]CA Renter, thanks for the heads up. There is no code on this site that accesses cameras or mics. (We just double checked this now to make sure there was nothing new. BTW to Ribbles — it was a good guess though!).
If it truly came through the site, my best guess is that it somehow came through a Google ad. The other possibility is that it didn’t actually come from the site… maybe it’s just a glitch, but it could possibly be the result of your computer being compromised. So just to rule that last possibility out, I’d definitely recommend thoroughly scanning your system for malware if you aren’t already doing that.
As for the Google ads, they will be going away soon, so if that was the cause, it will cease to be an issue soon enough.[/quote]
What is the harm in other people looking to see if their computers were affected? That would go a long way toward making sure that it was a Google issue, and not a hacker (perhaps directly affecting my computer, or working through the site).
It’s also my understanding that Google has a policy of not accessing people’s computer hardware without permission. I NEVER gave anyone permission to access my camera/mic. This cannot be overstated. I want to be sure that the Google issue is where it came from, and seeing if other people’s computers were affected is the only way to find out.
I’m a staunch privacy rights advocate, as you probably know, and I had to deal with a stalker for three years back when I was younger. For women, in particular, this type of privacy invation is totally unacceptable. When someone, or some program, tries to access my camera/mic without permission, it is a very big deal.
Edited to add: I also use two ad blockers. Not sure if that would have prevented this, but wanted to add that info.
April 27, 2018 @ 1:15 PM
I think the paranoia is right
I think the paranoia is right there for all to see.
April 27, 2018 @ 5:38 PM
But you already heard from
But you already heard from someone (with a computer security background) who ran into the same issue, and traced it back to google.
As I said, non-admin pigg users (and I am the only admin) can only post a very limited set of HTML formatting tags. There’s absolutely no way a piggington user can “target” anyone or access webcams or mics — it’s just not how this website works.
That was never in doubt. Out of an abundance of caution we did check if there was some new code in the content management system that could access a camera, and that was ruled out as well. That leaves Google — which was later confirmed by another user who got the same message and traced it back.
You are rejecting a completely plausible explanation in favor of one that makes absolutely no technical sense.
I don’t know what else to say about it.
May 2, 2018 @ 8:23 AM
Rich Toscano wrote:But you
[quote=Rich Toscano]But you already heard from someone (with a computer security background) who ran into the same issue, and traced it back to google.
As I said, non-admin pigg users (and I am the only admin) can only post a very limited set of HTML formatting tags. There’s absolutely no way a piggington user can “target” anyone or access webcams or mics — it’s just not how this website works.
That was never in doubt. Out of an abundance of caution we did check if there was some new code in the content management system that could access a camera, and that was ruled out as well. That leaves Google — which was later confirmed by another user who got the same message and traced it back.
You are rejecting a completely plausible explanation in favor of one that makes absolutely no technical sense.
I don’t know what else to say about it.[/quote]
paranoia!?
par·a·noi·a – a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically elaborated into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
https://piggington.com/why_are_states_so_strapped_cash_there_are_two_big_reasons?page=1#comment-280806
April 29, 2018 @ 12:51 PM
CA renter wrote:
Edited to
[quote=CA renter]
Edited to add: I also use two ad blockers. Not sure if that would have prevented this, but wanted to add that info.[/quote]
Add blockers don’t block compromises/attacks. The just block all the annoying popups and commercials. Use a script blocker ie. NoScript. The only problem with using NoScript is that you need to ‘grant’ script access to web sites with some requiring JavaScript to properly run. Some websites require ‘layers’ of JavaScript access because of cross site references(which can be a way to have web compromises – see Cross Site Scripting Compromises). Using NoScript requires more user ‘interaction’ sometimes just to get web pages to render. Unfortunately Google products are ‘married’ to scripting.
BTW: CA Renter, which browser were you running? Hopefully not Safari.
April 27, 2018 @ 8:34 AM
harvey wrote:Rich Toscano
[quote=harvey][quote=Rich Toscano]You can believe nutty things and still be a nice person.[/quote]
I agree.
But of course my question was about unfounded personal accusations. There’s a material difference.
Despite the fact that I’ve once again trounced CAR in debate, her childish tantrum was ultimately successful.
CAR’s behavior has gone past the point of passionate opinions. It has clearly veered into creepy, personally-targeted obsession.
For years her posts labeled me as “misinformed”, “illogical”, “unintelligent”, etc. in the usual style of a stubborn but weak debate opponent.
But recently and rather quickly it has escalated to “paid troll”, “multiple accounts”, “webcam hacking” …
I know that there’s little chance that her brand of crazy would develop into actual danger, but there’s no point in taking the chance with an internet weirdo. I’ve got a wife, kids, a dog … I even have friends!
The wise decision is to no longer participate in the nutty things that go on here.
Rich, please deactivate my account and delete my posting history if it’s not too much trouble.
(Leave this post up a little longer though, so I can take my victory lap…)[/quote]
OK, I deactivated it (you could just not log in? But whatever)
I can’t delete your posting history, because of the way the content management system works, it would also delete all replies to your posts. So they are there for posterity but your account is disabled as requested.
April 26, 2018 @ 12:24 PM
Rich- maybe locking threads
Rich- maybe locking threads would be better than bans?
April 26, 2018 @ 1:24 PM
I don’t want to spend time
I don’t want to spend time moderating, locking, banning, etc… it’s just not my thing. The forum has to run itself, for better or for worse.