OT: Predictions for 2016 Presidential Election

User Forum Topic
Submitted by svelte on December 11, 2015 - 7:41am

I apologize in advance for bringing up the topic (it is sure to be over-discussed next year!), but now is a good time to make predictions.

The primaries start in just a few weeks and bring clarity to who will be the final candidates.

So now is the opportune time to make predictions: who will be the final, post-convention candidate selections for US President of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, and any other party you which to mention?

Bonus points for specifying who their running mate will be!

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 13, 2016 - 8:30pm.

UN Secretaries General do not come from any country that has a permanent seat on the security council.

Right wing conspiracy theories. They think the UN will send in black helicopters to take away out guns.

immigration creates growth and opportunities. There are winners and losers but, overall, the economy grows faster and more prosperous. There is consensus among economists on that, even more so on the Republican side. It's the republican base that doesn't like immigration.

If you're smart, adaptable and hardworking, then you should support immigration. If you want to coast, then maybe you don't like it. Unauthorized immigrants are like refugees. If we welcome them with periodic amnesty, on humanitarian grounds, then they become part of us and help grow our economy.

Submitted by svelte on March 13, 2016 - 8:38pm.

joec wrote:

What I don't get is why LEGAL immigrants want to support ILLEGAL immigrants who are probably affecting their financial and job prospects far more. Having more workers compete with you if you are legal doesn't help you and I'd assume legal immigrants (Mexican, Asian, whoever) should be against all the freebees you see bantered about. Maybe it's your family, but legal immigrants can bring them in legally as well...I don't get this point.

Well if you're talking about immediate family, maybe.

But extended family and friends, no legal immigrants can't.

And this is why legal immigrants support illegal immigrants, from my observations. They are just like everyone else - they prefer to be surrounded by their family and friends.

Submitted by Coronita on March 13, 2016 - 9:04pm.

I'm not a big fan of Rubio also, but something he said hit spot on..

Quote:

Rubio said: "I'm very concerned about that. We don't know what's going to happen next here. I know that we've reached the point where people in American politics have decided that if they don't agree with you, they can get angry at you, that you're a bad and evil person, that they can say anything they want about you."

"I think that all the gates of civility have been blown apart. We've now reached a point where everyone on both sides everyone is just saying or doing whatever they want, and you know, you can't just say or do whatever you want," he said. "This is not about political correctness. This is about rules of civility and the way a society talks to each other."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/13/politics/m...

Submitted by Coronita on March 13, 2016 - 9:52pm.

joec wrote:
Trump's a bully and mostly (like nearly ALL the candidates) looking out for himself, but calling him insane is a bit off I feel.

He wasn't insane until he started to campaign as such. For the most part, he appeared sane before his bid for the white house
[/quote]

Quote:

If he was truly insane, he would have squandered all his born wealth and would be a total failure with no marriages and living in a ditch or dead.

Wrong. You equate financial success to sane people, and equate financial ruin to insane people. That can't be further from the truth. There are plenty of evil people who are incredibly wealthy. Just look up David Duke. He's richer than you are.

Quote:

From all data, I think it's fair to say he was born a millionaire and made himself into a billionaire (how much, still over $1 bil)...more than what most people would amount to.
He also raised 3 kids which nearly all the press and people who know them state are decent and upstanding kids...especially Ivanka.

Insane people are nice to their families and people who worship him. Name one nice thing that Trump said about anyone who isn't white. You're asian, I'm so surprised this doesn't concern you. It might not be your fight for now, it will be.

Quote:

I think in the end, Trump is extremely calculating and has a good sense of what the mood/feel/whatever you want to call it is for people and uses it to make sure he's getting his share/cut...and uses it to succeed.

Yes calculated evil, and knowing exactly which buttons to push to get people so push forward his agenda. If I was religious, I would say he's close enough to the anti-christ.

Quote:

It's true he's no conservative, but maybe that's a good thing since there's been ads against him for coming out and supporting universal health care
(my main concern in general) and other things "conservative" far right republicans would never support.

People are mixing character with political viewpoint. Example: I might not like Obama. I might not even like Bernie for being a leftist socialist. However, Bernie doesn't strike me as someone evil, not in what he says, not in what he does. Perhaps very misguided and what he would do would piss me off from a policy standpoint.

Trump lacks character. He takes paints himself a moderate for exactly the reasons that you just exhibit. To win you over on his political viewpoint, so he can get away with his agenda of his racist/devisive agenda, and with enough "moderate" people saying "well, he's a moderate, and I agree with enough of his moderate viewpoints, hence he must be ok".

Quote:

What I don't get is why LEGAL immigrants want to support ILLEGAL immigrants who are probably affecting their financial and job prospects far more. Having more workers compete with you if you are legal doesn't help you and I'd assume legal immigrants (Mexican, Asian, whoever) should be against all the freebees you see bantered about. Maybe it's your family, but legal immigrants can bring them in legally as well...I don't get this point.

A lot of people keep saying illegals are hindering them financially. Let me ask exactly what did illegals do to hurt you personally financially? Welfare? What about the majority of welfare recipients being from southern states which are U.S. citizens? If we really want to talk about freebies, why not point the finger there. The percentage of welfare leeches from southern states is much larger than the freebies that illegals get. (I can't believe as a republican, I just said that. But it's true)

And let's be frank, the reason why illegal alien exist is because of our government/social policies, not because of the illegal people themselves. If a politician really wants to solve the illegal alien problem, the solution is simple...stop giving financial incentives to people who come here who aren't here legally. Get rid of welfare, healthcare, and entitlement benefits completely. Don't blame the latinos, or asians, or what have you. Blame the policy and change the policy. In as much as why are people blaming H1-B people, when the blame should be directed at the few CEOs and companies that exploit the H1-B system?

I don't know. If you aren't white, be very very afraid right now. It might start with just illegal latinos, or muslims. But who's to draw the line. There are already plenty of people pissed off at the H1-B blaming indians. There are plenty of people shut out of the housing market that are blaming the asians. If you enable Trump's game, why do you think this sort of blaming is going to stop short of you, unless they don't view you as a threat financially or socially. You aren't white afterall. This is the entire problem I have with Trump's supporters. Mix a bunch of mad people who are frustrated with being left behind, add a dash of racism to the mix, and you get a very scary bunch of people that want view you who isn't white as a threat to their future who will do anything and back anything to "take you down", even if it means to bully you over. And as an asian, you'll get kicked around again.. Because once again, you wanted to play it safe, and didn't think anything would happen to you. Asians get kicked around a lot, because a lot of asians let it happen.
You'll always be a second class citizen no matter how successful you are, or how much money you have...no matter how much money you have, you won't mind getting kicked around, and people will think you won't mind getting kicked around.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 13, 2016 - 10:25pm.

flu wrote:
joec wrote:
Trump's a bully and mostly (like nearly ALL the candidates) looking out for himself, but calling him insane is a bit off I feel.

He wasn't insane until he started to campaign as such. For the most part, he appeared sane before his bid for the white house


Quote:

If he was truly insane, he would have squandered all his born wealth and would be a total failure with no marriages and living in a ditch or dead.

Wrong. You equate financial success to sane people, and equate financial ruin to insane people. That can't be further from the truth. There are plenty of evil people who are incredibly wealthy. Just look up David Duke. He's richer than you are.

Quote:

From all data, I think it's fair to say he was born a millionaire and made himself into a billionaire (how much, still over $1 bil)...more than what most people would amount to.
He also raised 3 kids which nearly all the press and people who know them state are decent and upstanding kids...especially Ivanka.

Insane people are nice to their families and people who worship him. Name one nice thing that Trump said about anyone who isn't white. You're asian, I'm so surprised this doesn't concern you. It might not be your fight for now, it will be.

Quote:

I think in the end, Trump is extremely calculating and has a good sense of what the mood/feel/whatever you want to call it is for people and uses it to make sure he's getting his share/cut...and uses it to succeed.

Yes calculated evil, and knowing exactly which buttons to push to get people so push forward his agenda. If I was religious, I would say he's close enough to the anti-christ.

Quote:

It's true he's no conservative, but maybe that's a good thing since there's been ads against him for coming out and supporting universal health care
(my main concern in general) and other things "conservative" far right republicans would never support.

People are mixing character with political viewpoint. Example: I might not like Obama. I might not even like Bernie for being a leftist socialist. However, Bernie doesn't strike me as someone evil, not in what he says, not in what he does. Perhaps very misguided and what he would do would piss me off from a policy standpoint.

Trump lacks character. He takes paints himself a moderate for exactly the reasons that you just exhibit. To win you over on his political viewpoint, so he can get away with his agenda of his racist/devisive agenda, and with enough "moderate" people saying "well, he's a moderate, and I agree with enough of his moderate viewpoints, hence he must be ok".

Quote:

What I don't get is why LEGAL immigrants want to support ILLEGAL immigrants who are probably affecting their financial and job prospects far more. Having more workers compete with you if you are legal doesn't help you and I'd assume legal immigrants (Mexican, Asian, whoever) should be against all the freebees you see bantered about. Maybe it's your family, but legal immigrants can bring them in legally as well...I don't get this point.

A lot of people keep saying illegals are hindering them financially. Let me ask exactly what did illegals do to hurt you personally financially? Welfare? What about the majority of welfare recipients being from southern states which are U.S. citizens? If we really want to talk about freebies, why not point the finger there. The percentage of welfare leeches from southern states is much larger than the freebies that illegals get. (I can't believe as a republican, I just said that. But it's true)

And let's be frank, the reason why illegal alien exist is because of our government/social policies, not because of the illegal people themselves. If a politician really wants to solve the illegal alien problem, the solution is simple...stop giving financial incentives to people who come here who aren't here legally. Get rid of welfare, healthcare, and entitlement benefits completely. Don't blame the latinos, or asians, or what have you. Blame the policy and change the policy. In as much as why are people blaming H1-B people, when the blame should be directed at the few CEOs and companies that exploit the H1-B system?

I don't know. If you aren't white, be very very afraid right now. It might start with just illegal latinos, or muslims. But who's to draw the line. There are already plenty of people pissed off at the H1-B blaming indians. There are plenty of people shut out of the housing market that are blaming the asians. If you enable Trump's game, why do you think this sort of blaming is going to stop short of you, unless they don't view you as a threat financially or socially. You aren't white afterall. This is the entire problem I have with Trump's supporters. Mix a bunch of mad people who are frustrated with being left behind, add a dash of racism to the mix, and you get a very scary bunch of people that want view you who isn't white as a threat to their future who will do anything and back anything to "take you down", even if it means to bully you over. And as an asian, you'll get kicked around again.. Because once again, you wanted to play it safe, and didn't think anything would happen to you. Asians get kicked around a lot, because a lot of asians let it happen.
You'll always be a second class citizen no matter how successful you are, or how much money you have...no matter how much money you have, you won't mind getting kicked around, and people will think you won't mind getting kicked around.[/quote]

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.

Submitted by utcsox on March 13, 2016 - 10:38pm.

flu wrote:
I'm not a big fan of Rubio also, but something he said hit spot on..

Quote:

Rubio said: "I'm very concerned about that. We don't know what's going to happen next here. I know that we've reached the point where people in American politics have decided that if they don't agree with you, they can get angry at you, that you're a bad and evil person, that they can say anything they want about you."

"I think that all the gates of civility have been blown apart. We've now reached a point where everyone on both sides everyone is just saying or doing whatever they want, and you know, you can't just say or do whatever you want," he said. "This is not about political correctness. This is about rules of civility and the way a society talks to each other."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/13/politics/marco-rubio-donald-trump-support/index.html

Let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Little Marco doesn't know what he's talking about; he knows EXACTLY what he is talking about. See the paragraph below yourself. Remember, Little Marco is supposed to be a moderate RINO.

"Remember, Rubio is the candidate who says President Barack Obama is "undermining this country" as "part of a plan to weaken America on the global stage." Rubio says of Obama that "all this damage that he's done to America is deliberate." He attacked the president's choice to speak at a mosque as an example of his "constant pitting people against each other," which is "hurting our country badly."

Last month, when CNN asked Rubio's spokesman Alex Conant whether the senator believes Obama is "intentionally trying to destroy the country," Conant said "absolutely."

http://www.businessinsider.com/marco-rub...

Submitted by Coronita on March 13, 2016 - 10:45pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
[

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.

This was never funny to begin with. I don't care what side the politician is on. You can't come out a say XYZ race/ethnicity isn't bring their best or blame and entire faction. I don't care if it's white, black, latino, asian, blue, etc. The day he came out with the mexico isn't sending their best, was the day I said he had to go. Even for a republican.

I'd like to see as a country, we're better then this. Even from the GOP.

Submitted by Coronita on March 13, 2016 - 10:54pm.

utcsox wrote:
flu wrote:
I'm not a big fan of Rubio also, but something he said hit spot on..

Quote:

Rubio said: "I'm very concerned about that. We don't know what's going to happen next here. I know that we've reached the point where people in American politics have decided that if they don't agree with you, they can get angry at you, that you're a bad and evil person, that they can say anything they want about you."

"I think that all the gates of civility have been blown apart. We've now reached a point where everyone on both sides everyone is just saying or doing whatever they want, and you know, you can't just say or do whatever you want," he said. "This is not about political correctness. This is about rules of civility and the way a society talks to each other."

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/13/politics/marco-rubio-donald-trump-support/index.html

Let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Little Marco doesn't know what he's talking about; he knows EXACTLY what he is talking about. See the paragraph below yourself. Remember, Little Marco is supposed to be a moderate RINO.

"Remember, Rubio is the candidate who says President Barack Obama is "undermining this country" as "part of a plan to weaken America on the global stage." Rubio says of Obama that "all this damage that he's done to America is deliberate." He attacked the president's choice to speak at a mosque as an example of his "constant pitting people against each other," which is "hurting our country badly."

Last month, when CNN asked Rubio's spokesman Alex Conant whether the senator believes Obama is "intentionally trying to destroy the country," Conant said "absolutely."

http://www.businessinsider.com/marco-rubio-donald-trump-obama-2016-3

Yes, I'm aware of this Marco flip flop, just like every other flip flop. Again, I'm not saying he's a great guy. None of them are. But let's face it, the only candidate from both party that is systematically demonstrating being a racist and inciting racism is Trump and only Trump.

I don't have a problem any politician stating how horrible a job Obama did or how Hillary might be. That's part of this political game. But people keep equating Trump "being an outsider" or being a "moderate" to excuse his alarming behavior. I don't expect people who aren't colored to understand, but this shit terrifies the fvck out of me.

I'm not latino, I'm not muslim, and I'm not indian, which apparently seems to be the order of Trump's attacks. But enabling Trump, is like me wondering when is it my turn.

My votes, are in this particular order

1. Anyone but Trump
2. Anyone but Hillary
3. Anyone but Cruz

I haven't decided between 2 and 3 yet. That might change. But 1 is definitely non negotiable.

Submitted by an on March 13, 2016 - 11:59pm.

#neverTrump. I can deal/settle w/ Hillary and Cruz, but definitely #neverTrump.

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 8:00am.

utcsox wrote:

Last month, when CNN asked Rubio's spokesman Alex Conant whether the senator believes Obama is "intentionally trying to destroy the country," Conant said "absolutely."

I had a friend who listened to fox news and read the blaze and pretty much had been thoroughly manipulated by the right-wing noise machine. He mentioned that he thought Obama was deliberately hurting the country. It's a common theme in the right-wing echo chamber. They really do believe it. I asked my friend what he thought Obama's motivation to hurt the country was. That extremely simple and obvious question stumped him. He hadn't thought about it (surprise!).

I have yet to hear what right wingers think Obama's motivation for destroying the country would be. Even when I google it, I get a bunch of right-wing noise machine websites saying "here's proof Obama is purposely destroying America," but I get nothing on "why."

The proof that he's destroying America is all nonsense, of course, but I can see how somebody not very skeptical would fall for it. What I don't understand is how they can get all those people to fall for the idea of him doing it on purpose without even providing at least some semi-plausible reason why Obama would want to do that. You apparently don't have to answer such obvious questions if you're really good at emotional manipulation.

If anybody reading this thinks Obama is deliberately destroying our country, I'd really be interested to hear what you think his motivation for that would be. I'm hoping to hear something reasonable, because I hate to think that such a large a segment of our population is so unquestioning that they could be so easily made to believe something so far-fetched, and with no explanation of why, even.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 14, 2016 - 9:52am.

Zk, the reason Obama is deliberately hurting the country is because he's Muslim and hates America.

The right wing has 2 narratives. 1) Obama is an incompetent idiot. 2) Obama knows exactly what he's doing.

However, if he's incompetent, he cannot know exactly.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 14, 2016 - 10:39am.

zk wrote:

I had a friend who listened to fox news and read the blaze and pretty much had been thoroughly manipulated by the right-wing noise machine. He mentioned that he thought Obama was deliberately hurting the country. It's a common theme in the right-wing echo chamber. They really do believe it. I asked my friend what he thought Obama's motivation to hurt the country was. That extremely simple and obvious question stumped him. He hadn't thought about it (surprise!).

I don't know if you feel the same zk, but I'm losing patience with my right wing friends.

They tend to have a Trump like attitude about things. They use lots of sarcasm and "duh, you're so stupid" type arguments. So, we're supposed to be the nice intellectual, ivory tower elitists who take it quietly and politely. But when you dish out the same rhetoric, they get all in a tizzy.

ZK, do you feel that you give more in your friendship with that person? Is it an assymetric friendship where you have to be more patient and forgiving?

Submitted by no_such_reality on March 14, 2016 - 11:13am.

scaredyclassic wrote:

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.

No. America desperately needs Trump. The disenfranchisement, the resentment, has metastasized into full blown cancer and the people haven't realized it.

Pushing it under at this point will make it worse going forward.

What America needs, is for Trump to be the nominee and for decent Americans to give him the pummeling he deserves and not just pummel, but give the embarrassing exposure that he needs.

Suppressing it will not make this cancer go away, it will make it stronger the next time it rises, which will be rapid. Literally, next election cycle.

No, the American people really need to see Trump and what he's doing for what it is and to that they're getting hijacked by the cancer and need to eradicate it.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and one party will collapse and we'll end up with a fight in one majority party between extremists and moderates.

Unfortunately, Hillary makes this less likely, IMHO as she represents the status quo that is leaving 90% of our country behind.

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 11:38am.

FlyerInHi wrote:
Zk, the reason Obama is deliberately hurting the country is because he's Muslim and hates America.

The right wing has 2 narratives. 1) Obama is an incompetent idiot. 2) Obama knows exactly what he's doing.

However, if he's incompetent, he cannot know exactly.

Thanks, Brian, but I want to hear from somebody who believes it. And "Obama hates America" isn't enough, I want to know what they think is the reason he hates America.

"Because he's a muslim" doesn't really fly, either. Most muslims don't hate America. I'd say only a very small percentage of them do. And I want to ask a believer (among many other questions) questions about their belief that he's a muslim.

paramount? Anyone?

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 12:09pm.

dup.

A lot of these lately, I know. The mouse on this computer at work (I'm on break) is kinda messed up, and clicks repeatedly with one click. Sorry.

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 2:57pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

I don't know if you feel the same zk, but I'm losing patience with my right wing friends.

They tend to have a Trump like attitude about things. They use lots of sarcasm and "duh, you're so stupid" type arguments. So, we're supposed to be the nice intellectual, ivory tower elitists who take it quietly and politely. But when you dish out the same rhetoric, they get all in a tizzy.

ZK, do you feel that you give more in your friendship with that person? Is it an assymetric friendship where you have to be more patient and forgiving?

I try to avoid talking politics with my friends. If a right winger brings it up, I try to change the subject. Even if it takes a couple attempts.

This particular friend kept bringing it up. We played golf together regularly, so we're out there for 4 hours at a time. He never got the hint that I didn't want to talk about it. So, I gave in and talked about it. I think I was at least appearing to be respectful of his views, and I think I was able to hide what I was really thinking. I was thinking, god, he's an idiot. Not unintelligent. I know him to be somewhat more intelligent than average. But an idiot nonetheless. Not because he disagreed with me, but because he had nothing to back up his statements/arguments. Some of which were entirely nonsensical, and could only, in my opinion, have been believed by someone as intelligent as him if he was both unskeptical and had been emotionally manipulated. After a few of these (long) conversations, he said, "it's great that two intelligent guys who disagree can talk politics and not get angry at each other." And he was right about neither of us being angry (to this point). I wasn't angry, I just thought he was an idiot. My opinion of him got lower every time we talked about politics. He was unskeptical, irrational, and couldn't answer basic questions about his opinions. Again, my opinion had nothing to do with whether we agreed on anything.

So one day he posts some nonsensical rwnj stuff on facebook. I private message him on facebook, asking him some basic questions about that post. This time I mentioned that I thought he'd been emotionally manipulated by the right-wing noise machine, and I pointed out why I thought that. He unfriended me on facebook, and we haven't talked since.

It's not for fear of losing friends that I don't talk politics. It's because 1) what's the point? and 2) I don't want to think they're idiots (and I don't want them to think I'm an idiot, which, regardless of who's actually an idiot, they probably will).

Submitted by livinincali on March 14, 2016 - 1:02pm.

zk wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:
Zk, the reason Obama is deliberately hurting the country is because he's Muslim and hates America.

The right wing has 2 narratives. 1) Obama is an incompetent idiot. 2) Obama knows exactly what he's doing.

However, if he's incompetent, he cannot know exactly.

Thanks, Brian, but I want to hear from somebody who believes it. And "Obama hates America" isn't enough, I want to know what they think is the reason he hates America.

"Because he's a muslim" doesn't really fly, either. Most muslims don't hate America. I'd say only a very small percentage of them do. And I want to ask a believer (among many other questions) questions about their belief that he's a muslim.

paramount? Anyone?

I don't think Obama hates America. I think he'd like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. He might hate certain aspects of our constitution, the 2nd amendment comes to mind. He might like to see the 1st and 4th more limited. That's probably where the Obama hates American rhetoric is coming from.

He hasn't been all that effective at bringing the country together. It's much more divided now than it was when he was elected. I think America is just sick and tired of the bought and paid for politician. He epitomizes that person and if there were a republican in the presidents role it would probably be similar rhetoric from the Democrats. I.e. Romney hates America because he sells it out to business special interests.

The political rhetoric always gets bad before an election. We got people here comparing Trump to Hilter and he's a populist racist that's going to set the country back 50 years in civil rights. I don't know that Trump's ever done anything in business that supports that view and talking negatively about illegal immigration doesn't seem to justify that fear. He doesn't have a track record in political office so it's a bit of an unknown. Certainly some of his supporters would like to see that happen, but I don't think most of them do.

I think the 2 most important issues for this country are fixing the costs associated with health care/education and re-establishing the rule of law (No more we're above the law for businesses and special interests). Both of those involve standing up to the special interests and their large campaign contributions. I think Sanders and Trump would be the most effective at doing that. I don't have a lot of faith in Clinton or the establishment republicans doing that.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 14, 2016 - 1:04pm.

Zk, another narrative is, well... If you don't understand that Muslims hate America then you're naive. Don't you hear Muslims yelling "Allah Akbar!" (God is Great)? That's the only evidence you need.

Another criticism of Obama is that he goes around the world apologizing for America, even though we are righteous. But in the same breath those critics claim that Obama is so hated around the world that our allies are tuning against us.

But, logically, if Obama goes around kissing asses, shouldn't "'em furner" like him more (at least better than Bush)?

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 14, 2016 - 1:14pm.

Livinincali, like many others, you like to claim that the rhetoric on both sides is equivalent in hyperbole and intensity (code words for batshit craziness).

There are lots of studies proving that extremism is assymetric and tilted to the right, especially if the context includes the whole developed world. I know, I know, that's elitist, ivory tower, intellectualism. Better to be in the gutter with the "real" folks.

Submitted by Rich Toscano on March 14, 2016 - 1:18pm.

zk wrote:

...I'm hoping to hear something reasonable...

Best of luck.

Submitted by SK in CV on March 14, 2016 - 1:37pm.

livinincali wrote:
I don't think Obama hates America. I think he'd like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. He might hate certain aspects of our constitution, the 2nd amendment comes to mind. He might like to see the 1st and 4th more limited. That's probably where the Obama hates American rhetoric is coming from.

Certainly, if he really wants more of a "socialist federally controlled country" and hates aspects of the constitution, he would have proposed legislation that supports those views. He hasn't.

I think the reason that people argue that he hates America is that they're racist. They don't like having a black president. So they've made up lies to hide that racism. He hasn't divided the country. The country has divided itself. On one side, you have people that are quite comfortable having a black president. On the other side, you have people who hate the idea. That he hasn't brought those two sides together doesn't make him divisive. It just exposes the latent racism that has been here for centuries. That racism has manifested itself as the republican party of today. Sadly, it is the perfect match with the bill of goods sold by Ronald Reagan, that the government is broken, can't fix anything, and is the source of the problem. 35 years after making the argument, they've proved it by both making sure it is broken, and now have a candidate that plays into both the racist fears and absolute certainty that the government can't help.

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 3:04pm.

livinincali wrote:

I don't think Obama hates America. I think he'd like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Surely someone here thinks Obama hates America. Most people who get their "news" primarily from the right-wing noise machine seem to be convinced of that, and I know we have some of those here.

I think they're afraid to admit they think Obama hates America while they're outside the confines of the right-wing echo chamber, because out here somebody will actually disagree with them and they'll have to have a reasonable argument.

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 3:27pm.

dup

Submitted by zk on March 14, 2016 - 3:27pm.

livinincali wrote:

The political rhetoric always gets bad before an election.

The political rhetoric spewed by the right-wing noise machine has been non-stop since before Obama even took office. Rush Limbaugh hilariously called the recession The "Obama recession" in November (or December) of 2008, before Obama even took office. The rw noise machine has been saying Obama hates America for 7 years. They've been saying he's a Muslim, a Kenyan, a socialist, etc. for 7 continuous years. This rhetoric has nothing to do with the election.

livinincali wrote:

He hasn't been all that effective at bringing the country together. It's much more divided now than it was when he was elected.

And you honestly think that's his fault? When the republicans have been more interested in stopping anything he does than in doing their part in governing, and when the right-wing noise machine has been brainwashing millions of people into thinking Obama hates America?

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 14, 2016 - 5:43pm.

no_such_reality wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.

No. America desperately needs Trump. The disenfranchisement, the resentment, has metastasized into full blown cancer and the people haven't realized it.

Pushing it under at this point will make it worse going forward.

What America needs, is for Trump to be the nominee and for decent Americans to give him the pummeling he deserves and not just pummel, but give the embarrassing exposure that he needs.

Suppressing it will not make this cancer go away, it will make it stronger the next time it rises, which will be rapid. Literally, next election cycle.

No, the American people really need to see Trump and what he's doing for what it is and to that they're getting hijacked by the cancer and need to eradicate it.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and one party will collapse and we'll end up with a fight in one majority party between extremists and moderates.

Unfortunately, Hillary makes this less likely, IMHO as she represents the status quo that is leaving 90% of our country behind.

We need "sunny ways" not "angry ways".
Follow Canadian politics a little. They are facing the same issues we are with globalization, changing demographics, etc... They have chosen "sunny ways" in a landslide.

Submitted by joec on March 14, 2016 - 6:39pm.

livinincali wrote:

I don't think Obama hates America. I think he'd like to see America become more socialist federally controlled country. He might hate certain aspects of our constitution, the 2nd amendment comes to mind. He might like to see the 1st and 4th more limited. That's probably where the Obama hates American rhetoric is coming from.

He hasn't been all that effective at bringing the country together. It's much more divided now than it was when he was elected. I think America is just sick and tired of the bought and paid for politician. He epitomizes that person and if there were a republican in the presidents role it would probably be similar rhetoric from the Democrats. I.e. Romney hates America because he sells it out to business special interests.

The political rhetoric always gets bad before an election. We got people here comparing Trump to Hilter and he's a populist racist that's going to set the country back 50 years in civil rights. I don't know that Trump's ever done anything in business that supports that view and talking negatively about illegal immigration doesn't seem to justify that fear. He doesn't have a track record in political office so it's a bit of an unknown. Certainly some of his supporters would like to see that happen, but I don't think most of them do.

I think the 2 most important issues for this country are fixing the costs associated with health care/education and re-establishing the rule of law (No more we're above the law for businesses and special interests). Both of those involve standing up to the special interests and their large campaign contributions. I think Sanders and Trump would be the most effective at doing that. I don't have a lot of faith in Clinton or the establishment republicans doing that.

I agree with the above post...I think from what I have read/seen, Obama has used racial comments in general to make race as a problem and a thing to divide the country. That has been something I have read/heard from even non-right wing nuts. This probably feeds into them then taking that and saying he hates America...

Also, I think every economic study has shown that the black people haven't improved a wee bit anything since he was elected...Probably just another politician...or politics as usual.

flu, you mistake my Trump comments as someone who supports him. My disagreement is that I don't think he's insane and he knows that there is a huge segment of the party very disenfranchised with the whole thing and he knows how to tap that.

He could be racist, problem is maybe unlike you, I also think I'm probably racist too, at least to a certain degree. Problem is I actually think everyone is racist to a point. Some may not make negative comments or what not in public, but I even have family members that married someone else get tons of negative comments (black/muslim, white spouse's parents making disparaging Asian remarks, etc...).

I suppose this is why Japan doesn't have immigration. It's one benefit (and problem) they don't have to deal with...

As for Trump being president and starting to kill off or persecute everyone who isn't white, even if he wanted to do that, I don't think that will happen...maybe you do or at least put limits on anyone who isn't white. If that were to occur, maybe we'd end up with another Civil war at that point.

I do agree with the above post that a lot of the Trump supporters are just out to look for anyone who isn't establishment (special interest). Heck, Taylor Swift can run and she'd probably win (at least she's pleasing to look at). People simply don't care and maybe they are naïve to think that, with him thumb on nukes, but that's where things are at. The people in political power are viewed very negatively (and they do have hand son nukes) and a lot of the Trump fans just want them all out.

I do believe that if there was say, a real world war with China, even if you aren't from China, any Chinese or any Asian person is going to be in a world of hurt, even citizens or people born here. It's just the nature of the situation and at the end of the day, if the shit is bad enough, I wouldn't be surprised to see internment camps again.

It is a sad state in America (and tons of other countries) dealing with this now...

See all the corruption out in Brazil? Olympics there are dead (no one is going) with Zika and they are trying to impeach their current leader...

Maybe America isn't that bad after all.

Submitted by flyer on March 14, 2016 - 10:41pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
no_such_reality wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:

Agree.

I was wrong for thinking trump was entertaining.

It is not funny anymore.

The republicans need to shut him down. Just change the rules and put someone not insane and preferably not Cruz on the ticket. Screw trump.

No. America desperately needs Trump. The disenfranchisement, the resentment, has metastasized into full blown cancer and the people haven't realized it.

Pushing it under at this point will make it worse going forward.

What America needs, is for Trump to be the nominee and for decent Americans to give him the pummeling he deserves and not just pummel, but give the embarrassing exposure that he needs.

Suppressing it will not make this cancer go away, it will make it stronger the next time it rises, which will be rapid. Literally, next election cycle.

No, the American people really need to see Trump and what he's doing for what it is and to that they're getting hijacked by the cancer and need to eradicate it.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and one party will collapse and we'll end up with a fight in one majority party between extremists and moderates.

Unfortunately, Hillary makes this less likely, IMHO as she represents the status quo that is leaving 90% of our country behind.

We need "sunny ways" not "angry ways".
Follow Canadian politics a little. They are facing the same issues we are with globalization, changing demographics, etc... They have chosen "sunny ways" in a landslide.

FIH, our family has always subscribed to "sunny ways," and agree that's definitely the way to go in life. Even though anger can be justified in many cases, imo, life is too short to waste being an angry person or country.

Submitted by svelte on March 15, 2016 - 4:12am.

Rich Toscano wrote:
zk wrote:

...I'm hoping to hear something reasonable...

Best of luck.

Lol!

Submitted by livinincali on March 15, 2016 - 6:47am.

SK in CV wrote:

Certainly, if he really wants more of a "socialist federally controlled country" and hates aspects of the constitution, he would have proposed legislation that supports those views. He hasn't.

Of course he has. He produced a variety of gun measures that run counter to the 2nd amendment. You may find those proposals well intentioned and they may be viewed favorably to the majority of the population, but they they should be considered an attack on the second amendment. Especially to the conservative right, which is the group accusing him of hating America.

He proposed Obamacare with a single payer option that didn't materialize in the final law but that would have certainly brought the country closer to socialist federal controller republic. You may support that outcome but it doesn't change what the result means. It means we become more socialistic and less capitalistic.

SK in CV wrote:

I think the reason that people argue that he hates America is that they're racist. They don't like having a black president. So they've made up lies to hide that racism. He hasn't divided the country. The country has divided itself. On one side, you have people that are quite comfortable having a black president. On the other side, you have people who hate the idea. That he hasn't brought those two sides together doesn't make him divisive. It just exposes the latent racism that has been here for centuries. That racism has manifested itself as the republican party of today. Sadly, it is the perfect match with the bill of goods sold by Ronald Reagan, that the government is broken, can't fix anything, and is the source of the problem. 35 years after making the argument, they've proved it by both making sure it is broken, and now have a candidate that plays into both the racist fears and absolute certainty that the government can't help.

I'm sure real racism has something to do with it for some people. I do think hard working white people are getting tired of being accused of white privilege and racism every time some minority fails. I think the Social Justice crowd might be wise to tone down those accusations because at some point if you accuse somebody as being a racist all the time they might just decide to be a racist. What's the point of denying it, might as well embrace it.

Submitted by SK in CV on March 15, 2016 - 7:26am.

livinincali wrote:
SK in CV wrote:

Certainly, if he really wants more of a "socialist federally controlled country" and hates aspects of the constitution, he would have proposed legislation that supports those views. He hasn't.

Of course he has. He produced a variety of gun measures that run counter to the 2nd amendment. You may find those proposals well intentioned and they may be viewed favorably to the majority of the population, but they they should be considered an attack on the second amendment. Especially to the conservative right, which is the group accusing him of hating America.

He proposed Obamacare with a single payer option that didn't materialize in the final law but that would have certainly brought the country closer to socialist federal controller republic. You may support that outcome but it doesn't change what the result means. It means we become more socialistic and less capitalistic.

If he'd actually produced a series of gun measures that run counter to the 2nd amendment, they'd be out there somewhere. He hasn't. They aren't. This is an example of the vicious lies that have been spread by his opponents. He doesn't oppose the constitution. He doesn't hate America. He isn't Muslim. He wasn't born in Kenya.

He did not propose Obamacare "with a single payer option that didn't materialize". There was no version of the law that included single-payer. And if there had been a proposal like that, it probably would have been similar to medicare. Medicare is not socialized medicine. Despite actual facts, these lies were spread by his opponents, even on this very site. Hundreds of lies about what was in the law. That you, a reasonably well read guy, thinks this shit really happened, is telling. No other president in modern times, has been a victim of this visceral hate that knows no bounds.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.