ot. the life changing magic of tidying up: the Japanese art of decluttering

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Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 7:24am

By Marie kondo. Bestseller in japan. Just released in the states recently.

If you think you might need this book please get it.

It has changed my life...

Incredible changes mentally in last month.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 13, 2014 - 8:17am.

I am not going there. Good Japanese movie though, "Departures" really cool , The main guy becomes an undertaker after losing his job with an orchestra. He learns to make deceased people beautiful and dignified for their coffins against the wishes of his wife and friends who want him to get a real job. Very nice movie.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 8:39am.

ok. will watch.

you may not be ready for decluttering.i wasnt for many eyars...actually a whole lifetime. there is a lot of psychological stuff going on with extra things. anyway, int he last month, ive taken several vanloads of crap to the goodwill. also my office is pristine, where previously id leave things out to linger and stare at me....

strangely, I am eating less junk food and feel no craving for alcohol. I also am feeling less desire for material things.

im telling you, when the time comes, read the book, or at least google the author MARIE KONDO and see what she ahs to say. you can get most of th einfo online in her interviews. the book is very short an dmemorable tho.

Submitted by Hobie on November 13, 2014 - 9:28am.

Will check it out. Thx. Clutter is a giant thorn in my marriage. Remember when your parents saved every copy of National Geographic mag. Why, just why? .. And think of the $$ all the crap represents.. only to throw way. Still not ready for the nude 5 day course though :)

( I know it is not all days ....)

Submitted by FlyerInHi on November 13, 2014 - 11:00am.

Read some architecture books. Your physical environment affects psychology.

Japanese zen and mid century American modern is how I live my life. No junk and clutter.

I can't get married because most women are into junk and clutter.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 11:32am.

Hobie wrote:
Will check it out. Thx. Clutter is a giant thorn in my marriage. Remember when your parents saved every copy of National Geographic mag. Why, just why? .. And think of the $$ all the crap represents.. only to throw way. Still not ready for the nude 5 day course though :)

( I know it is not all days ....)

Just get Marie kondo's book. It could change things....there is truly an art to discarding things.

Submitted by sdsurfer on November 13, 2014 - 1:54pm.

Right on! I'll have a look and share with the wifey. I think I actually ended up on becomingminimalist.com through Piggington a while back and that has definitely helped out home quite a bit. I think the word "minimalist" scares people away a bit, but living with less is definitely a good thing from my experience and it's relative...you do not have to go full on contemporary/modern in your home. We still have a ways to go, but have been working it and getting better each day. It's kind of a cool feeling to suddenly realize that it's not that your home is not big enough...it's that you have too much stuff in that home and that half of the stuff you really do not use very often so you can give it away.

I read somewhere that if you are on the fence about keeping something or getting rid of it to ask yourself, "Does this make my life awesome?" and there are so many things that are very easy to get rid of if you say that as you pick it up. Reminds me of Marie's "Joy" aspect I just read about online.

I did hear that the CEO of Goodwill makes like 6 million a year through his clever pay nothing leading to infinity for your margins so I prefer dropping out stuff off at the DAV up in Oceanside. Not sure if anyone else heard about that or can confirm it is true.

Submitted by UCGal on November 13, 2014 - 4:28pm.

Thanks for the recommendation. I just put a hold on it through the library. But there are 18 people ahead of me in the queue. That's ok - it will let me finish "Being Mortal" - a very good book on aging/medicine/nursing homes/indpendence/etc... by Atul Gawandi.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 8:29pm.

UCGal wrote:
Thanks for the recommendation. I just put a hold on it through the library. But there are 18 people ahead of me in the queue. That's ok - it will let me finish "Being Mortal" - a very good book on aging/medicine/nursing homes/indpendence/etc... by Atul Gawandi.

that gawande book is on my wife's nightstand. on my nightstand: a new translation of stanislavski's acting texts.

it's just amazing when a book actually affects your life. ideas actually matter.

THE TIGHTWAD GAZETTE changed everything for me back in 2001.

now, marie kondo with the KonMari method.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 8:56pm.

Hobie wrote:
Will check it out. Thx. Clutter is a giant thorn in my marriage. Remember when your parents saved every copy of National Geographic mag. Why, just why? .. And think of the $$ all the crap represents.. only to throw way. Still not ready for the nude 5 day course though :)

( I know it is not all days ....)

Strangely I had to keep a whole shelf of national geo. And probably 10y. Of DISCOVER magazines.

My oldest has read them all several times and can recall relevant articles and find them on the shelf when a topic came up even when much younger. Theose magazines just spark so much joy for me on the shelf. Cannot toss. maybe ever. but other thigns went out like nothing...i just love to see him come home and pore over january 2005 ....

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 9:02pm.

DEPARTURES is instant view on netflix. maybe tonight...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 9:04pm.

home, for the oldest, may be where the national geographics are.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 13, 2014 - 9:42pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
DEPARTURES is instant view on netflix. maybe tonight...

I hope you like it.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 13, 2014 - 9:47pm.

I am positive we will. My wife has an entire shelf of books just on death related topics. Death is kind of her thing.

Submitted by flyer on November 14, 2014 - 6:15am.

IMO, when you fully and completely accept that everything on earth is temporary, this realization gives you a great sense of freedom.

As far as seeking the "inner truth," of being, it's true that Stanislavski's approach is very revealing. . .

"Stanislavski's system is a method that actors use to produce realistic characters on stage. His original studies of techniques led to the use of emotional memory that required actors to trigger the emotions of their characters internally. This technique was based from a French psychologist Theodule Ribot's concept of 'Affective Memory'. Later in his life, Stanislavski realized that a shift in technique was needed for actors to produce more realistic emotions before audiences but he never discredited the use of emotional memory if used cautiously. This was underscored when his talented protégé Michael Chekhov experimented with emotional memory and had a nervous breakdown. A few months before his death he told his assistants that the path to glory can be found by working from the internal (the inside out) as well as the external (the outside in). This led to the 'Method of Physical Action'."

Submitted by FlyerInHi on November 14, 2014 - 4:29pm.

I can see keeping some cherished books or National Geographic magazines your kids enjoyed reading. That's not what clutter is about.

Clutter is messy, dark, nasty houses. Thing strewn around, appliances and junk all over the kitchen, clothing on the floor, unmade beds, etc... I've met lots of people who live this way. Seems like messiness is more the norm than the exception.

Maybe, here, we are a superior group of clean people.

Submitted by zk on November 15, 2014 - 12:32pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

Maybe, here, we are a superior group of clean people.

Most people write that, I figure it's a joke. Brian, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, I think clutter bothers some people a lot more than it bothers others. It drives my wife nuts. If she goes into a room just, say, to get something, she notices everything in the room without even trying. If you put a paper clip anywhere in that room, she'll notice it when she walks in again. Even if she's not looking for it, she'll notice it instantly. And it will bug her if it isn't supposed to be there. I'm the opposite, which I shall illustrate: An old roomate and I used to get kicks from startling/scaring each other. One time I came home and didn't expect him to be there. He doesn't want to totally freak me out, so he gives me a hint that he's there. He leaves an air chair foil (it's a metal, t-shaped thing about 2 feet by 3 feet) in the doorway to the bathroom. I have to practically contort myself to get by this thing. It doesn't occur to me that that's not supposed to be there, nor that it wasn't there when I left (and so I don't get the hint, and my hair stands on end when he does jump out of wherever he jumps out of). So maybe it's not noticing things like that that result in clutter not bothering me. Clutter doesn't bother me at all. Does that make me inferior? Of course not. Not from any reasonable perspective, anyway. Does it mean that I wouldn't be helped by decluttering? I think it does. I think that people who are bothered by clutter are sometimes not aware that clutter is what's bothering them. And those people will probably be amazed at how much decluttering helps them. And some of them probably won't understand how it wouldn't help everybody. But I think people who aren't bothered by clutter wouldn't get much out of it.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 15, 2014 - 4:12pm.

I walked over a dead possum in the yard without notic8ng

Submitted by FlyerInHi on November 15, 2014 - 4:32pm.

zk, if your wife can notice an out-of-place paper clip, and she married you, then you can't be that bad.

Trust me, you're lucky to have married your wife. I bet she keeps a nice fresh home where you're proud to invite people over. If you had married a messy woman, your life would have gone downhill quickly.

I've seen bad situations in my peers, friends and acquaintances. One guy owns 2 houses and both of them are clusterf--k!

Messy people know that there's something wrong with them that's why they are too embarrassed to have people over. They only meet people outside the home. That's a telltale sign of a messy person.

I've read that hoarding is a disease that gets progressively worse. A friend is dating a women whose mom is a hoarder. Since they moved in together, the apartment has become more cluttered. They keep on buying cabinets to put useless things in. I wonder if hoarding is hereditary but, either nature or nurture, I don't think the nuts fall too far from the tree.

My own brother's house is not that bad, but it's getting progressively worse. Wife is a SAHP with 1 child, but the house is far from tidy. There's a room filled with laundry. His wife is the daughter of a hoarder who has a garage sale addiction. The inlaws' 5000sf house is filled just useless junk!

Also, interestingly, it's a good thing that Americans move 5 to 7 years on average. That forces them to clean up. American's also live in large houses where they can spread the junk.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 15, 2014 - 4:34pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
zk, if your wife can notice an out-of-place paper clip, and she married you, then you can't be that bad.

Trust me, you're lucky to have married your wife. I bet she keeps a nice fresh home where you're proud to invite people over. If you had married a messy woman, your life would have gone downhill quickly.

I've seen bad situations in my peers, friends and acquaintances. One guy owns 2 houses and both of them are clusterf--k!

Messy people know that there's something wrong with them that's why they are too embarrassed to have people over. They only meet people outside the home. That's a telltale sign of a messy person.

I've read that hoarding is a disease that gets progressively worse. A friend is dating a women whose mom is a hoarder. Since they moved in together, the apartment has become more cluttered. They keep on buying cabinets to put useless things in. I wonder if hoarding is hereditary but, either nature or nurture, I don't think the nuts fall too far from the tree.

My own brother's house is not that bad, but it's getting progressively worse. Wife is a SAHP with 1 child, but the house is far from tidy. There's a room filled with laundry. His wife is the daughter of a hoarder who has a garage sale addiction. The inlaws' 5000sf house is filled just useless junk!

Also, interestingly, it's a good thing that Americans move 5 to 7 years on average. That forces them to clean up. American's also live in large houses where they can spread the junk.

It is weird. I wonder if it's getting worse. I kinda remember tidy being the norm when I was little at others houses...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 15, 2014 - 9:52pm.

Blogstar wrote:
I am not going there. Good Japanese movie though, "Departures" really cool , The main guy becomes an undertaker after losing his job with an orchestra. He learns to make deceased people beautiful and dignified for their coffins against the wishes of his wife and friends who want him to get a real job. Very nice movie.

wife gave it 5 stars. However she felt the rock in hand at end was too much. I didnt. I was weeping. I will send stone letters.

my favorite line:

"My husband is a professional"

Submitted by zk on November 15, 2014 - 11:53pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
zk, if your wife can notice an out-of-place paper clip, and she married you, then you can't be that bad.

Not true. It was a massive adjustment for both of us. I’m probably 97% neater than I used to be. And for her to overlook (or clean up herself) that last 3% is probably harder for her than picking up after myself is for me (and that’s pretty hard).
FlyerInHi wrote:

Trust me, you're lucky to have married your wife.

Truer words were never spoken. But it's got nothing to do with neatness.
FlyerInHi wrote:

I bet she keeps a nice fresh home where you're proud to invite people over.

Our home is super fresh and extremely neat and clean. We are proud to invite people over. But there are disadvantages to having a neat-freak wife:

We have a very large back yard with a bocce ball court, a covered patio, a built in bbq, an iron gazebo shaded by bougainvillea, a fire pit, a putting green, a horseshoe pit, a huge cabana with a 60 inch tv, a lawn big enough for croquet or badminton, and a 270 degree view. Perfect for entertaining 60 or 70 people. But she won’t have more than three couples and their kids over at a time. (She tries to keep it to two couples, but will allow three in a pinch.) Because it would freak her out to have the house that messy just between the time it got messy and when we finished cleaning up. And somebody might, god forbid, spill something on the carpet. Given the option, I’d take both large parties and some messiness rather than neither.

Also, when I have a poker game or a football draft at my house, everybody has to stay outside (in the cabana) except to use the bathroom. And they have to go around the house and through the garage to get there.

I managed to get permission to have a small super bowl party last year. Had about 20 or 25 people over. It took me a year to get permission, and I heard about it for a month after. Not doing that again.

So there are disadvantages. But, hey, to make a marriage work, you have to work together and compromise. I do most of the giving in this particular area, but she more than makes up for it in other areas.

So, I don't see myself as lucky that my wife is neat. I see the advantages of it, but overall it's not a benefit.

FlyerInHi wrote:

If you had married a messy woman, your life would have gone downhill quickly.

Brian, you seem to have this strange idea that if a person’s bed isn’t made, they’re living a horrible existence. I couldn’t care less if my bed is made. I only make it because it makes my wife happy.

I understand why she wants the bed made. I understand why you want the bed made. My wife understands that I don’t care if the bed is made and appreciates when I make it for her. What I don’t understand is why you don’t understand that to some people it’s ok that the bed is not made.

I grew up in a messy house and it didn’t bother me. I lived in a messy house before I got married (clean for the most part, but messy). It didn’t bother me. If I had a messy wife, I’d have a messy house now, and I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t bother me. If it did bother me, I’d tidy it up.

FlyerInHi wrote:
I've seen bad situations in my peers, friends and acquaintances. One guy owns 2 houses and both of them are clusterf--k!

Is he happy or unhappy? That’s what’s important. Not whether his bed is made or his living room is uncluttered.
FlyerInHi wrote:

Messy people know that there's something wrong with them that's why they are too embarrassed to have people over. They only meet people outside the home. That's a telltale sign of a messy person.

There’s something wrong with them? You’re judging people because they’re messy? It seems to me like there’s something wrong with you. Lacking empathy and judging people over unimportant things is, in my opinion, a way bigger problem than being messy.
FlyerInHi wrote:

I've read that hoarding is a disease that gets progressively worse. A friend is dating a women whose mom is a hoarder. Since they moved in together, the apartment has become more cluttered. They keep on buying cabinets to put useless things in. I wonder if hoarding is hereditary but, either nature or nurture, I don't think the nuts fall too far from the tree.

Hoarding is different from messy.

Submitted by flyer on November 16, 2014 - 5:52am.

It's been interesting to read all of these comments on neatness vs. clutter, since I've never really thought much about this topic before. I can imagine either extreme might indicate something more than the obvious might lie beneath the surface.

A friend (actually a TV star my wife knows) who used to run excessively--almost to the point of physical destruction--finally decided to go into therapy, and uncovered the "real reasons" he was pushing himself past the point of no return.

He admitted he really didn't know why he was doing what he was doing with regard to running, but mentioned terms like "mental clutter" when referring to his situation. It's been very clear that the revelations he gained from the therapy changed his life for the better, and that's always a good thing.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 16, 2014 - 8:49am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
I am not going there. Good Japanese movie though, "Departures" really cool , The main guy becomes an undertaker after losing his job with an orchestra. He learns to make deceased people beautiful and dignified for their coffins against the wishes of his wife and friends who want him to get a real job. Very nice movie.

wife gave it 5 stars. However she felt the rock in hand at end was too much. I didnt. I was weeping. I will send stone letters.

my favorite line:

"My husband is a professional"

The stone was crucial to tying the situation between the father and the son through time up unto the present where the father lay there dead . It was very important to somehow know that although the father was absentee he had tried to hold on to a part of his time with his son, or a part of his son, during his entire life and cherished him on some level until the end.

Stone messages seem great to me but are more powerful used sparingly , not like hallmark cards.

I think The elements of "fate" in the young man's life were done very well. His connection to the bath house people. Just that the job actually fit him so perfectly like a replacement for playing the cello. Awesome.

I think everyone would find some flaw in the movie. My wife didn't like how dishonest the young man was to his wife , lying about buying the cello and about his job.
It made perfect sense to me. I didn't like the fake trout , the trout bit could have been good , but I could tell that the actual fish weren't real. I thought the washing the transgender persons "thing" went a little too far into absurd. Acknowledging the transgender fact and the families emotions around it were great but not the exaggerated genital emphasis. It was like we were too stupid to get it unless it was over visually portrayed.

I loved the part where the young undertaker played the cello from his childhood out in the open fields. That was glorious.

How about the cremation furnace? It sounded like a metal foundry when they turned it on.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 16, 2014 - 9:10am.

flyer wrote:
It's been interesting to read all of these comments on neatness vs. clutter, since I've never really thought much about this topic before. I can imagine either extreme might indicate something more than the obvious might lie beneath the surface.

A friend (actually a TV star my wife knows) who used to run excessively--almost to the point of physical destruction--finally decided to go into therapy, and uncovered the "real reasons" he was pushing himself past the point of no return.

He admitted he really didn't know why he was doing what he was doing with regard to running, but mentioned terms like "mental clutter" when referring to his situation. It's been very clear that the revelations he gained from the therapy changed his life for the better, and that's always a good thing.

Exercise addiction is interesting, lots of overlap with food addiction/ eating disorder/body image/self image problems and all that lurks below that. None of us are completely immune from some aspects of this combination of things. It's great that your running friend sought help.

I agree about the extremes, There area as many miserable neurotic tidy people as there are people who are so messy that they are embarrassed to have people over. Good point.

I look at some of these perfect houses , perfect inside and out and I would be embarrassed if I lived in one of them. They look like a boat load of energy went into staging them even when people live in them. We are not our houses our family is not our house.

Sometimes disorder is bliss. I can recall times when the bed was piled with clothes from the dryer and I was super tired and just jumping in it and sleeping for as long as i wanted waking up super relaxed in this pile of clothes it was awesome. Get a cup of coffee and jump back in and turn on the TV! Luxury!

Submitted by svelte on November 16, 2014 - 9:39am.

We have a house cleaning service come in every other week to clean the floors, kitch, bathrooms, etc.

You know the best part about it?

It forces us to have all room tidy every 14 days, no excuses, so they can come in and clean. All of our stuff gets put away so they can do their job.

Though it is a pain sometimes, we've really grown to love that regular cycle.

Submitted by svelte on November 16, 2014 - 9:51am.

zk wrote:

Perfect for entertaining 60 or 70 people. But she won’t have more than three couples and their kids over at a time. (She tries to keep it to two couples, but will allow three in a pinch.)

Parties are interesting psychologically speaking.

I can only stand throwing one maybe two large parties a year. They are fun to host, but I reach my saturation point fairly quickly.

Like your wife, we tend to keep our gatherings to 2 or 3 other couples. Less cleanup, less complexity, and less worry on my part about whether everyone is getting what they need to enjoy the evening. It is a much more manageable arrangement.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 16, 2014 - 10:22am.

Blogstar wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
I am not going there. Good Japanese movie though, "Departures" really cool , The main guy becomes an undertaker after losing his job with an orchestra. He learns to make deceased people beautiful and dignified for their coffins against the wishes of his wife and friends who want him to get a real job. Very nice movie.

wife gave it 5 stars. However she felt the rock in hand at end was too much. I didnt. I was weeping. I will send stone letters.

my favorite line:

"My husband is a professional"

The stone was crucial to tying the situation between the father and the son through time up unto the present where the father lay there dead . It was very important to somehow know that although the father was absentee he had tried to hold on to a part of his time with his son, or a part of his son, during his entire life and cherished him on some level until the end.

Stone messages seem great to me but are more powerful used sparingly , not like hallmark cards.

I think The elements of "fate" in the young man's life were done very well. His connection to the bath house people. Just that the job actually fit him so perfectly like a replacement for playing the cello. Awesome.

I think everyone would find some flaw in the movie. My wife didn't like how dishonest the young man was to his wife , lying about buying the cello and about his job.
It made perfect sense to me. I didn't like the fake trout , the trout bit could have been good , but I could tell that the actual fish weren't real. I thought the washing the transgender persons "thing" went a little too far into absurd. Acknowledging the transgender fact and the families emotions around it were great but not the exaggerated genital emphasis. It was like we were too stupid to get it unless it was over visually portrayed.

I loved the part where the young undertaker played the cello from his childhood out in the open fields. That was glorious.

How about the cremation furnace? It sounded like a metal foundry when they turned it on.

i think the rock couldve been in the box of stuff the dad left for the same meaning.

one of the things I love about this movie is how messed up his life is when he "follows his dreams", and how proound it becomes when he connects with other humans...

Submitted by Rhett on November 16, 2014 - 10:32am.

zk wrote:
Brian, you seem to have this strange idea that if a person’s bed isn’t made, they’re living a horrible existence. I couldn’t care less if my bed is made. I only make it because it makes my wife happy.

I understand why she wants the bed made. I understand why you want the bed made. My wife understands that I don’t care if the bed is made and appreciates when I make it for her. What I don’t understand is why you don’t understand that to some people it’s ok that the bed is not made.

From a microbiology point of view, making your bed immediately in the morning is actually leaving it dirtier. People sweat, drool, etc., which leaves their bottom (fitted) sheet moist and teaming will all sorts of little critters. If you don't give that proper time to dry out, you essentially are creating a Petri dish to sleep in.

Definitely make it before you have company, or in the middle of the day. If you want it to look "neat" when it is unmade, then have the sheets neatly folded when they are turned back. But don't assume keeping a bed made is keeping it cleaner. LOL

Submitted by NotCranky on November 16, 2014 - 10:49am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
I am not going there. Good Japanese movie though, "Departures" really cool , The main guy becomes an undertaker after losing his job with an orchestra. He learns to make deceased people beautiful and dignified for their coffins against the wishes of his wife and friends who want him to get a real job. Very nice movie.

wife gave it 5 stars. However she felt the rock in hand at end was too much. I didnt. I was weeping. I will send stone letters.

my favorite line:

"My husband is a professional"

The stone was crucial to tying the situation between the father and the son through time up unto the present where the father lay there dead . It was very important to somehow know that although the father was absentee he had tried to hold on to a part of his time with his son, or a part of his son, during his entire life and cherished him on some level until the end.

Stone messages seem great to me but are more powerful used sparingly , not like hallmark cards.

I think The elements of "fate" in the young man's life were done very well. His connection to the bath house people. Just that the job actually fit him so perfectly like a replacement for playing the cello. Awesome.

I think everyone would find some flaw in the movie. My wife didn't like how dishonest the young man was to his wife , lying about buying the cello and about his job.
It made perfect sense to me. I didn't like the fake trout , the trout bit could have been good , but I could tell that the actual fish weren't real. I thought the washing the transgender persons "thing" went a little too far into absurd. Acknowledging the transgender fact and the families emotions around it were great but not the exaggerated genital emphasis. It was like we were too stupid to get it unless it was over visually portrayed.

I loved the part where the young undertaker played the cello from his childhood out in the open fields. That was glorious.

How about the cremation furnace? It sounded like a metal foundry when they turned it on.

i think the rock couldve been in the box of stuff the dad left for the same meaning.

one of the things I love about this movie is how messed up his life is when he "follows his dreams", and how proound it becomes when he connects with other humans...


I don't think the rock was necessarily for the young man to find, nor the box. I think the father was taking the stone to the grave with him, which is also profound. It was good for the movie that his son found it though.

Still, I agree that parents who leave their kids and never give them any feedback like his father did are irresponsible, must be sick. But the son was heroic nonetheless. Got some positive closure with the rock.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on November 16, 2014 - 11:18am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
It is weird. I wonder if it's getting worse. I kinda remember tidy being the norm when I was little at others houses...

I remember the same thing.

If you're ready to receive guests the same day, then it's a sign that you're in the neat category.

When I was a kid, we used to drop by friends' houses very frequently. Tidy was more the norm.

Also, I remember that housewives had to iron everything. That itself was a big job. Nowadays, people don't iron anymore, hardly.

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