OT: Chaos

Submitted by CA renter on June 13, 2013 - 9:56pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
CAR. In my group of gun owners it's a cultural thing

It's not about thought and reasoning but about claiming a right that they feel should not infringed upon.

The argument about protecting the constitution is crap. These guys don't care about the constitution, only the parts that they like.

The self-defense argument is also bullcrap. These guys are itching to blow someone's head off for trespassing into their property. Real self-defense is about thoughtful modesty and avoiding dangerous situations, not provoke them.

Yes. some people such as battered women could use guns but that's a different story.

I think in the country there is a cultural clash between the more urban, more cosmopolitan population and a more traditional middle America.

The people I know who own guns and are fanatical about them tend to be of lower educational backgrounds, regardless of their current incomes.

You don't have to answer this, but I'll take a wild guess here. I bet your husband owns guns also and he didn't complete a 4-year college degree right after high school.

Allan said that guns are in our DNA. They are in our culture, not DNA. Culture can be changed.

I own guns but I'm OK with making guns so expensive and inconvenient that not every schmuck can own them. Yeah, yeah, what about the criminals you may ask? Criminals have easy access to guns because schmucks can buy them for cheap legally and trade them in the black/grey market.

1. It sounds like you are blaming victims of crime with the "modesty" and "avoiding dangerous situations" comment. Victims are **absolutely not** responsible for the actions of violent criminals. Your assumptions about how one is targeted by a criminal are pretty naive.

2. My husband did not finish a 4-year degree, but he was close. His job requires training that, for the most part, isn't found on college campuses. There are many decent jobs out there that don't require a degree (many skilled trades don't require degrees), and that doesn't detract from the people or their professions. There are also a lot of people out there with degrees who are low-class and/or cannot even get a minimum wage job.

But that's all beside the point. Mr. CAR is not a gun collector, and was never really into guns. He favors gun control. OTOH, I do have a degree plus 2-years post-grad education, and I'm the NRA member and life-long shooter, not my husband. My father, a college professor, taught me how to shoot when I was seven years old. I used to shoot with many different friends who were mostly college-educated and/or in the armed services.

You seem to like stereotypes. Unfortunately, trying to categorize supporters of gun rights like you do isn't going to convince anyone that we should take guns away from people who are not legally insane or violent. And trying to insist that only rich people deserve the right to protect themselves is incredibly elitist.

Submitted by KIBU on June 13, 2013 - 10:33pm.

cnn: Four fatally shot

"The unidentified owner of A K Home Health Care is believed to be the gunman, police said. The others appeared to be employees.
After a review of evidence, including a surveillance video, officers determined there had been an argument in the office of the business, Capt. Michael Sack told reporters".

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/13/us/missour...

Submitted by evolusd on June 13, 2013 - 10:50pm.

CA renter wrote:
dumbrenter wrote:

No, we don't have a gun problem. If anything, we have an issue with creating situation where some members in our society decide to take it out on little kids at school. These folks who engage in such acts come from across income demographics but practically all of them have had contact with our medical industry, many of them were on meds, and they had no support system to fall back upon to where they could be cared for.
Our system of government has gradually broken down the bonds of family & community and made everything a matter of an individual and the state. Our material wants have brought both dad & mom to workplace. A home maker and her contributions mean nothing when measured by our liberal economists. There is no value in our society to be a home maker and raise & care for a family. Many of the kids are outsourced to day care centers or left with electronic entertainment. When they act up, they are put on meds. And when they are totally lost and act out their frustration, these same economist geniuses wail against guns.
We created this cruel system ourselves, keep voting for its continuity and when such incidents happen, we get all righteous about the fact that this happens only here among developed economies.

I guess blaming guns is a lot easier way out than taking a hard look at our humanity & the cruel system/structures we have created that lets these poor folks fall to such depths that taking it out on little kids at school is the only thing they can do to show their frustration.

In terms of cost, it costs so little to provide a net for these about to be shooting perpetrators, a little bit of care for them, compared to the consequences. But oh no, we cannot talk about that, it is all about the guns.

Great post, DR.

Agreed - nail on head.

Submitted by ocrenter on June 14, 2013 - 7:46am.

dumbrenter wrote:

No, we don't have a gun problem. If anything, we have an issue with creating situation where some members in our society decide to take it out on little kids at school. These folks who engage in such acts come from across income demographics but practically all of them have had contact with our medical industry, many of them were on meds, and they had no support system to fall back upon to where they could be cared for.
Our system of government has gradually broken down the bonds of family & community and made everything a matter of an individual and the state. Our material wants have brought both dad & mom to workplace. A home maker and her contributions mean nothing when measured by our liberal economists. There is no value in our society to be a home maker and raise & care for a family. Many of the kids are outsourced to day care centers or left with electronic entertainment. When they act up, they are put on meds. And when they are totally lost and act out their frustration, these same economist geniuses wail against guns.
We created this cruel system ourselves, keep voting for its continuity and when such incidents happen, we get all righteous about the fact that this happens only here among developed economies.

I guess blaming guns is a lot easier way out than taking a hard look at our humanity & the cruel system/structures we have created that lets these poor folks fall to such depths that taking it out on little kids at school is the only thing they can do to show their frustration.

In terms of cost, it costs so little to provide a net for these about to be shooting perpetrators, a little bit of care for them, compared to the consequences. But oh no, we cannot talk about that, it is all about the guns.

This is a well written piece, a nice departure from your dog-centric one-liners.

I do agree the problem we are facing is multi-factorial. But that does not mean guns are not part of the picture. If you want to look at it from a macro-analysis stand point, have the courage to include everything in play, and that includes guns.

So much that's wrong with this country goes back to 50-60 years ago, with the development of the 2 parent working arrangement. Raising children is truly a full time position of great importance. When we make the decision to take both parents into a full time work environment, we ultimately do have a price to pay. That price can be seen in our divorce rate, our welfare payout, our waist, and ultimately the mass shootings.

divorce rate

welfare

obesity

shootings

With a double income family, both parents are stressed. The increased stress bring about the increased divorce rate. Which bring about the need for welfare. Meanwhile, with moms taken out of the kitchen, the country needs to rely on ready-made food and fast food, the end result is our obesity crisis. Children are raised by TVs and video game consoles, the pervasive violence from these sources then lead to increased violent tendencies. Meanwhile, our built in stress relief, aka our innate reliance on walking, is taken away from us due to the infrastructure we built for ourselves. The end result is rather predictable.

So now that we know what ills us, the question is what do we do? Do we keep the fatty and sugary food dirt cheap while we preach to the population to do better with food selection? In the meantime allowing the food industry to keep targeting children with their ads. Then scratch our heads and wonder how come preaching for better food choices don't work? Same with the guns. Do we keep firearm cheap and keep them unregulated and plentiful and urge ownership responsibility and better therapeutic compliance for the mentally ill. Then scratch our heads and wonder how the mass shootings keep happening?

Is guns a easy target? of course not. But until we can get wholesale change in our society and culture that has to be part of the equation. Is targeting the food industry easy? probably even harder then going after the guns. But we have to because they are guilty of mass producing cheap and potent and addictive food/drinks that contribute to the decline of our health as a nation. These are not the only solutions, but they are part of the overall solution. Don't exclude one item right from the beginning and label it the sacred cow that must not be touched. That doesn't help, you know better than that.

Submitted by spdrun on June 14, 2013 - 8:22am.

Simple solution: limit working hours to 35 per week + 4 weeks mandatory vacation + holidays for most W-2 employees. Combine that with national health insurance for all, so that employers would have to provide very minimal benefits -- cost of hiring goes down.

You'd have (a) more people hired, since the possible work done by a single worker will decline and (b) people having more time to spend with families and kids.

Also, STOP TRYING TO RE-INFLATE THE PROPERTY BUBBLE ALREADY! SD may have gone insane, but prices in NJ are actually such that people can afford a decent apartment in an area with good schools on one income. Attempting to support prices via QE is just keeping people on the treadmill, running like fucking hamsters.

Submitted by all on June 14, 2013 - 8:39am.

spdrun wrote:
Simple solution: limit working hours to 35 per week + 4 weeks mandatory vacation + holidays for most W-2 employees. Combine that with national health insurance for all, so that employers would have to provide very minimal benefits -- cost of hiring goes down.

How is that working for France?

Submitted by livinincali on June 14, 2013 - 8:45am.

spdrun wrote:
Simple solution: limit working hours to 35 per week + 4 weeks mandatory vacation + holidays for most W-2 employees. Combine that with national health insurance for all, so that employers would have to provide very minimal benefits -- cost of hiring goes down.

You'd have (a) more people hired, since the possible work done by a single worker will decline and (b) people having more time to spend with families and kids.

Sounds like France. How is the their economy doing right now? Unfortunately the socialist managed economy idea looks good on paper but performs poorly when implemented in the real world. When the competitive nature of people is allowed to function it seems to bring about the most innovation and growth. Unfortunately it also leaves a bunch of people behind. I don't have a fair equitable solution. The economists that seem to think they have a solution don't seem to understand the complexity that leads to unexpected and unintended results. maybe we'd be better off just letting the economy ebb and flow naturally rather than trying to meddle in something we clearly don't really understand.

Submitted by SK in CV on June 14, 2013 - 8:54am.

livinincali wrote:
spdrun wrote:
Simple solution: limit working hours to 35 per week + 4 weeks mandatory vacation + holidays for most W-2 employees. Combine that with national health insurance for all, so that employers would have to provide very minimal benefits -- cost of hiring goes down.

You'd have (a) more people hired, since the possible work done by a single worker will decline and (b) people having more time to spend with families and kids.

Sounds like France. How is the their economy doing right now? Unfortunately the socialist managed economy idea looks good on paper but performs poorly when implemented in the real world. When the competitive nature of people is allowed to function it seems to bring about the most innovation and growth. Unfortunately it also leaves a bunch of people behind. I don't have a fair equitable solution. The economists that seem to think they have a solution don't seem to understand the complexity that leads to unexpected and unintended results. maybe we'd be better off just letting the economy ebb and flow naturally rather than trying to meddle in something we clearly don't really understand.

Actually, it's closer to being like Germany, where the average worker doesn't work as much as they do in France. Workers in both work less than Greece.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 14, 2013 - 10:05am.

And, in other news, America arms al-Qaeda, uh, I mean "rebels", in Syrian civil war.

This should work out really well...

Submitted by spdrun on June 14, 2013 - 10:15am.

Also sounds like Australia (actually they have 38 hr weeks). Capitalism should not mean slavery, nor does it need to. Besides, is world hegemony really more important than human happiness? What's wrong with being a slightly backward but happy society anyway?

Submitted by SK in CV on June 14, 2013 - 10:17am.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
And, in other news, America arms al-Qaeda, uh, I mean "rebels", in Syrian civil war.

This should work out really well...

Yeah, I don't know if it's exactly the same. But certainly close enough for discomfort. Doing nothing would be preferable.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 14, 2013 - 10:49am.

SK in CV wrote:
Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
And, in other news, America arms al-Qaeda, uh, I mean "rebels", in Syrian civil war.

This should work out really well...

Yeah, I don't know if it's exactly the same. But certainly close enough for discomfort. Doing nothing would be preferable.

SK: Yup, we need to stay as far from this shit as possible. The "win" in this situation is if Assad is unseated by the rebels (not all of whom, as you correctly stated, are affiliated with al-Qaeda, but plenty of them are.)

That would mean that al-Qaeda and/or other jihadis would have ready access to the Syrian Army's stockpile of chem weapons, including Sarin.

Good times.

It should also disabuse anyone of the notion that this administration is any less in bed with the Saudis than previous administrations were.

Submitted by SK in CV on June 14, 2013 - 11:07am.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:

It should also disabuse anyone of the notion that this administration is any less in bed with the Saudis than previous administrations were.

The Saudis? I thought it was Israel pulling the strings? I think it's neither, though SA is closer to the truth. Or maybe it's all 3 countries with parallel motivations, a common enemy in Iran. Stick with Assad and Iran wins. Go with the rebels and it's only 50/50 that Iran wins. Maybe a little less than that. I have no doubt that at least some of the anti-Assad groups would align with Iran in a heartbeat.

Submitted by no_such_reality on June 14, 2013 - 11:07am.

spdrun wrote:
Simple solution: limit working hours to 35 per week + 4 weeks mandatory vacation + holidays for most W-2 employees. Combine that with national health insurance for all, so that employers would have to provide very minimal benefits -- cost of hiring goes down.

No, that does not do it.

As OCR pointed out, it's really two working issue. Even with two not working, the two issue is a problem because the income expectations are all geared to two working.

Even with 35 hour weeks, two working will be an issue. I know one major challenge we're already looking at is once our child starts school, drop-off is 8AM and let out is 2:30PM, plus once every two weeks they either have a full day off or a half day off.

Submitted by spdrun on June 14, 2013 - 11:22am.

It's a start. 7 hr days more closely match school hours than 9-10 hr days. Plus 4 wks of vaca plus holidays will at least allow parents to take trips with kids and/or spend time with them during school breaks. Lastly, 35 hr weeks may allow for four day flex weeks for a lot more workers. Work 8.5 hr four days, take one day off to be with kids. If two parents do that on different days, then you end up having a parent around four days out of seven.

See my second part about income expectations -- we should actually lower expectations, painful as that may be.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 14, 2013 - 12:49pm.

CAR, our founding fathers were an elitist bunch, comparatively much more so than elitists of today.

My point is the gun lobby doesn't care about the constitution anymore than anyone else. That argument is tiresome.

I support gun ownership as do most politicians, I believe. But the constitution doesn't say that owning guns should be cheap and convenient.

On self defense with guns it's like defensive driving. You don't cause an accident while insisting on your right of way. You have the responsibility to yield to avoid an accident, especially if you can safely yield. The Zimmerman case is prime example.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 14, 2013 - 1:45pm.

SK is right. If Assad win, Iran wins. Israel and SA have more at stake than we do. For us, the hesitation to get in there is justified.

So we provide arms to bearded Islamists, never mind that could come back and bite us in the ass later.

What are the French and Brits' motivations in this. The French first provided the sarin evidence. The Brits confirmed, then we followed

Whenever I see McCain on TV I cringe.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 14, 2013 - 3:42pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
SK is right. If Assad win, Iran wins. Israel and SA have more at stake than we do. For us, the hesitation to get in there is justified.

So we provide arms to bearded Islamists, never mind that could come back and bite us in the ass later.

What are the French and Brits' motivations in this. The French first provided the sarin evidence. The Brits confirmed, then we followed

Whenever I see McCain on TV I cringe.

The French and the British are watching the Russians, who are playing their own version of the Great Game. Russians are seeking to exploit this opportunity to push back on a US-led effort to contain Iran, as well as push Russian interests in the arms and energy markets.

Putin would enjoy nothing more than watching Obama and the US get humiliated.

As far as Saudi influence goes, it's huge but it's also quiet. Spend some time in Amman, or Dubai or, better yet, Qatar, to really see it at work. Israeli focus is on putting Iranian hardliners out of business (both for the nuke threat and support for Hezbollah and Hamas). Saudis are playing a longer game and seeing the Alawites in Syria get shown the door fits into their long-term strategy.

Submitted by Vod-Vil on June 14, 2013 - 7:06pm.
Submitted by KIBU on June 15, 2013 - 5:37pm.

That is a problem. Loopholes in the gun laws where criminals and would be killers still can assemble guns from parts.

Submitted by spdrun on June 15, 2013 - 5:43pm.

Nonsense -- unless you banned all power tools and machine tools, someone with sufficient skill and access to metal will ALWAYS be able to build a gun, perhaps a pretty advanced one.

Submitted by KIBU on June 15, 2013 - 6:03pm.

The point is that if one is barred from being able to buy a weapon due to some issues with one's criminal/mental background, it makes sense that he/she would also be barred from being able to buy the parts. It's just a loophole.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 16, 2013 - 11:33am.

KIBU wrote:
cnn: Four fatally shot

"The unidentified owner of A K Home Health Care is believed to be the gunman, police said. The others appeared to be employees.
After a review of evidence, including a surveillance video, officers determined there had been an argument in the office of the business, Capt. Michael Sack told reporters".

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/13/us/missouri-shooting/

KIBU: It's interesting, but you continually post on spree killings, while apparently ignoring ALL other types of gun violence, most notably black-on-black violence. Are you aware of the epidemic of shootings in Chicago?

If we're going to be honest about problems related to gun violence, like the woeful state of mental health care in the US, I think we also need to face the consequences of decades of race positive government programs that have destroyed the black nuclear family and have created a nihilistic and permanent underclass with an out-of-wedlock birthrate approaching 70%, a high school dropout rate in excess of 50% and where homicide is the leading case of death among young black males.

Are YOU willing to be HONEST and admit that this is a PROBLEM? Or, does this strike too close to home, in terms of your political beliefs? Akin to Obama offering a "teachable moment" in the Trayvon Martin shooting, while completely ignoring what was happening in the streets of his adopted Chicago.

Submitted by no_such_reality on June 16, 2013 - 2:39pm.

KIBU wrote:
The point is that if one is barred from being able to buy a weapon due to some issues with one's criminal/mental background, it makes sense that he/she would also be barred from being able to buy the parts. It's just a loophole.

Yea, because someone that will take the time to source basic gun components, then build a gun, test it and then leave an apologetic note for the rampage he's going to do isn't going to find another destructive device to use, such as a pressure cooker.

Submitted by KIBU on June 16, 2013 - 5:21pm.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/15/us/nebrask...

(CNN) -- Four shootings in less than an hour left three people dead in Omaha, Nebraska, police said.
Two shooting victims were killed, as was one gunman, who was not identified, police said. Two other people were critically wounded.
The shootings all took place in south Omaha on Saturday, the same day the city kicked off the College World Series -- the NCAA championship for baseball.

Submitted by mike92104 on June 16, 2013 - 7:46pm.

If we're just going to pull up random news stories:

Senior Citizen Shoots Armed Robbers at Internet Cafe

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/18/se...

14-Year-Old Boy Shoots Armed Intruder in Home

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/02/14...

Teen Mother Kills Armed Intruder, Becomes National Sensation

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/01/07/sa...

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 16, 2013 - 9:21pm.

mike92104 wrote:
If we're just going to pull up random news stories:

Senior Citizen Shoots Armed Robbers at Internet Cafe

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/18/se...

14-Year-Old Boy Shoots Armed Intruder in Home

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/02/14...

Teen Mother Kills Armed Intruder, Becomes National Sensation

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/01/07/sarah-mckinley/#ixzz2WRCFEBvY

Uh, Mike, we cannot have these kinds of stories! They don't comport with the narrative of "Guns = Bad" that KIBU is trying to spread.

How can we have an "honest" conversation when you start throwing counter-revolutionary bullshit like facts and evidence into the mix?

Sheesh.

Submitted by KIBU on June 16, 2013 - 10:09pm.

Thanks Mike, but I remembered reading some of these back in 2012. Thanks for reminding these news.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on June 16, 2013 - 10:17pm.

KIBU wrote:
Thanks Mike, but I remembered reading some of these back in 2012. Thanks for reminding these news.

Yeah, Mike, cuz there haven't been any similar stories since 2012...

And, yes, "thanks for reminding these news."

KIBU, are you employed by the People's Republic of China? It would explain the distinctly Marxist tone and verbiage you use, as well as the contorted and strangled grammar.

Submitted by KIBU on June 16, 2013 - 10:23pm.

Does this mean then that we don't have a problem now Alan? Yes or no? Did they cancel each other out or something? Did "yes we ahve a problem" becomes no, it's canceled out? Just want to know if you change your mind again.

Mike, I understand your point. I don't think you can just cancel the gun problem that we face using this argument.

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