OT: I made bad choices, everyone pitty me.

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Submitted by creechrr on November 21, 2009 - 10:08am

I don't mean to pick on anyone in particular, but I'm a little irritated by these posts. I don't know the posters or the strengths their character. I only know what they have posted. They could be the best of people.

[RANT]

In regards to:

New: When does it make financial sense to dump my house?

and

When does it make financial sense to just dump your house???

You made what turned out to be a bad decision. That happens to all of us. What irritates me about these posts is the sense of being owed something. These guys seem to want to be told that it's OK to walk, not live up to their obligations.

The slippery slope has become has gone 100% frickin' vertical.

In the OPer's case there hasn't been any catostrophic event that leading them towards financial ruin. It's just plain poor choices. They just realized that it's a good idea to save for a rainy day? And, they just realized that raising children can be expensive?

There are a number of people that recognize these little facts of life. And, to mitigate some of those challenges we rent apartments, life with relatives or room-mates, generally plan ahead. I originally started out be saying it was a large number of people but, I realized that was a lie. The group is proving to be much smaller than I would have hoped.

Am I alone in feeling that these are the group of people that is ruining it for the rest of us? The group that confuses want with needs. The group that helped drive up housing prices to rediculous levels so that the rest of us couldn't possibly afford a modest home while planning for a rainy day. The group that takes on obligations that they only intend to see through till the end IF, it works in their favor.

I know there are some typos in their but, I don't care. You get the idea regardless.
[/RANT]

We make the countries official motto, "Screw unto others before they screw unto you".

We're all in the crammed into the bottom of the bowl now. I hear someone jiggling the handle. Prepare for rotation!

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 21, 2009 - 12:52pm.

no one is ruining anything for anyone. the market is composed of lots and lots of self-interested people. this is normal. there is only ever self-interest. there are no communal personal finance decisions. it's ok!

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 21, 2009 - 8:58pm.

We weren't making bad choices. The banks chose to lend to us. They were greedy. Giving loans without income proof?

The banks' greed is to blame for this, and the government's lack of regulation allowed it.

Is my choice to short sell going to drive up prices and ruin the market? No way. Prove it.

Many people wanted the dream of home ownership, is that wrong? Now I find that I can save thousands of dollars a year by renting instead of owning this house whose value was allowed to fall because of bank's greed.

Their decisions are financial, never moral; so will my decision be.

That's all I asked in my post, is it financially feasible and/or responsible. I wasn't looking for a morality lesson, and certainly not your pity!

Again, thanks to those with advice. For those with snide comments to me or to the realtors here actually offering advice, blow off!

And, please: GO CHARGERS!

Submitted by meadandale on November 21, 2009 - 9:11pm.

SellingMyHome wrote:
We weren't making bad choices. The banks chose to lend to us. They were greedy. Giving loans without income proof?

The banks' greed is to blame for this, and the government's lack of regulation allowed it.

Puleeze!

If you borrowed money that you could not afford to pay back, took money out of your house to buy crap or pay off your maxed out credit cards or to try to parley into some 'sweet deals' on more property, etc, etc then you were JUST as greedy as the banks and deserves just as much culpability.

I agree. The government needs to regulate greed and stupidity in the credit markets...especially greedy and stupid borrowers.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 21, 2009 - 9:18pm.

I personally didn't take out money to buy crap or pay other debt, I used it to fix up my house. Back then I thought I could spend some money on the house, sell it for a little profit, and buy a newer bigger house for my family. Not flipping, just hoping to move up a little.

That dream died about two years ago! Now here I sit underwater. DON'T PITY me though.

This post is in the other topics, so I should grow a spine and allow you all to vent, sorry! If you have some advice for me, please go back to my post.

Submitted by paramount on November 22, 2009 - 12:08am.

In your group of people who ruined things for you make sure you include the realtors, appraisers, mortgage processors and wall street who committed fraud on a massive scale.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 22, 2009 - 8:21am.

SellingMyHome wrote:
We weren't making bad choices. The banks chose to lend to us. They were greedy. Giving loans without income proof?

The banks' greed is to blame for this, and the government's lack of regulation allowed it.

Is my choice to short sell going to drive up prices and ruin the market? No way. Prove it.

Many people wanted the dream of home ownership, is that wrong? Now I find that I can save thousands of dollars a year by renting instead of owning this house whose value was allowed to fall because of bank's greed.

Their decisions are financial, never moral; so will my decision be.

That's all I asked in my post, is it financially feasible and/or responsible. I wasn't looking for a morality lesson, and certainly not your pity!

Again, thanks to those with advice. For those with snide comments to me or to the realtors here actually offering advice, blow off!

And, please: GO CHARGERS!


Most Realtors are going to be excessively inclined to being milk toasty about how stupid and greedy FB's are(even if you were neither). They need to ingratiate themselves with potential short-sellers. So, you could say they are humoring you and maybe you are humoring yourself too.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 8:37am.

Russell wrote:
Most Realtors are going to be excessively inclined to being milk toasty about how stupid and greedy FB's are(even if you were neither). They need to ingratiate themselves with potential short-sellers. So, you could say they are humoring you and maybe you are humoring yourself too.

I'm not trying to humor myself, I'm weighing my decision now as a business decision. I'm still not fully decided.

Submitted by patb on November 22, 2009 - 8:42am.

SellingMyHome wrote:
Russell wrote:
Most Realtors are going to be excessively inclined to being milk toasty about how stupid and greedy FB's are(even if you were neither). They need to ingratiate themselves with potential short-sellers. So, you could say they are humoring you and maybe you are humoring yourself too.

I'm not trying to humor myself, I'm weighing my decision now as a business decision. I'm still not fully decided.

you wanted a house you couldn't afford.

look Wall Street is writing down trillions, you can too.

Just don't wrap yourself in libertarianism later.
Your writeoff will be absorbed by the taxpayers
who will pay for your greed.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 9:09am.

weird duplicate, sorry!

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 8:58am.

Why didn't the government pay down our underwater house balances, that money could have gone to the banks. Instead, they gave the money straight to the banks to help pay for the paper losses caused by the badly packaged loans. Giving us the money would have been a win win situation, instead just the greedy banks win!

I'm starting to understand that a lot of people here must be investors or bankers.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 22, 2009 - 9:04am.

SellingMyHome wrote:
Why didn't the government pay down our underwater house balances, that money could have gone to the banks. Instead, they gave the money straight to the banks to help pay for the paper losses caused by the badly packaged loans. Giving us the money would have been a win win situation, instead just the greedy banks win!

I'm starting to understand that a lot of people here must be investors or bankers.

Submitted by meadandale on November 22, 2009 - 9:24am.

SellingMyHome wrote:
Why didn't the government pay down our underwater house balances, that money could have gone to the banks. Instead, they gave the money straight to the banks to help pay for the paper losses caused by the badly packaged loans. Giving us the money would have been a win win situation, instead just the greedy banks win!

I'm starting to understand that a lot of people here must be investors or bankers.

I was against the government giving money to the banks and I'm most certainly against the government giving money to people to pay their mortgages, many who behaved JUST AS RECKLESSLY as the banks.

I'm not an investor or banker...I'm a taxpayer...and a home owner that didn't buy more house than I could afford with a risky loan. I haven't taken money out of my house and I'm not up to my eyeballs in credit card or any other debt used to purchase a lifestyle I think I deserve but cannot afford.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 10:20am.

Me either!

Submitted by peterb on November 22, 2009 - 11:23am.

The music stopped and you were left without a chair. Life goes on, get over it. Cut yor losses. It's what the big boys do. And the biggest boys get their uncle sam to cover them. Been going for centuries.

Submitted by mercedes7 on November 22, 2009 - 11:41am.

creechrr... No, you are not alone, and this is definately what is wrong with our society today.

Too many people think it is their God-given right to "own" a home.

To SellingMyHome, you wrote:

Many people wanted the dream of home ownership, is that wrong? Now I find that I can save thousands of dollars a year by renting instead of owning this house whose value was allowed to fall because of bank's greed.

???..whose value was allowed to fall because of bank's greed.

Did you happen to check any charts detailing the parabolic rise in home values between 2001-2006? Did you think that would go on forever? Home values absolutely NEED to fall...they are (still) way out of wack with normal home price appreciation over historic norms.

In your thread you mentioned that you are maxing out your 401k but you are not saving anything in an emergency fund. Don't you think it would be more prudent to cut back on your pre-tax savings so that you can put money in an emergency fund? If you or your wife lose a job, and needed immediate cash, you will pay a hefty penalty to access money in your 401K.

I rarely post here, but your repeated nasty ("blow me") comments to any of the posters that disagree with your plan and call you out for your nonchalant attitude struck me wrong.

From what I read of your situation, you have the ability to fullfill the obligation you made to your creditor, but are choosing not to do so because it is financially advantageous for you to walk. Why is it a surprise to you that there would be people who do not condone this behavior? You say there is no morality involved...REALLY? I couldn't in a million years default on an obligation I made regardless of how much of a hardship it would be for me...just not wired that way. You made a bad decision (and I am truly sorry you did), yet are not willing to accept the consequences of that decision AND expect people to support you.

My point is not to berate you, but to get you to stand back and realize that attacking people who don't agree with you and your choices is insulting and immature.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 2:11pm.

mercedes7 wrote:
I rarely post here, but your repeated nasty ("blow me") comments to any of the posters that disagree with your plan and call you out for your nonchalant attitude struck me wrong.

My point is not to berate you, but to get you to stand back and realize that attacking people who don't agree with you and your choices is insulting and immature.

I only responded with "blow off", not "blow me" to those personally attacking me and my situation. In my main post I was asking for financial advice, and took offense to someone berating me. Blow off and blow me are very different, and display a vast difference of maturity. I have not attacked anyone, just asked people not to be mean. I truly listen to those posts that disagree me, but in an intelligent manor.

Believe me, I have not reached this decision lightly, and wouldn't have thought of it over two year's ago. Reading and seeing what the banks have done to this country has made me mad.

When I bought 6 year's ago I was sadly not as informed as I am today. I truly thought I was buying a house as a longer term investment for my family. If I knew then what I've learned since, I would have thought differently. I don't mean selling at the peak price, but even buying to begin with. 2003 was about 2/3rd the way up the parabolic rise, I thought I would buy before the peak.

What I should have done, was gotten an adjustable loan that I would not have been able to afford, then let the government bail me out. I'm at a point that I can't be bailed out of a bad decision, so I'm choosing another route.

Submitted by mercedes7 on November 22, 2009 - 2:39pm.

SellingMyHome][quote=mercedes7 wrote:
What I should have done, was gotten an adjustable loan that I would not have been able to afford, then let the government bail me out. I'm at a point that I can't be bailed out of a bad decision, so I'm choosing another route.

Ok, so I may have mistaken "blow me" with "blow off". Point taken, however I hope you can understand and accept why some people may not agree with the decision you are making.

I also appreciate that you are not entering this decision lightly. And I too am not happy about what has happened with the banks. However, the attitude you display in the above quote is exactly what people here are responding to. It is pretty much prevasive in our society today and why not, our "leaders" are setting the example. It frightens me that this is now the prevailing attitude.

We need to go back to minimum 20% down on a home purchase and no more than 2 1/5 x annual salary -period. That way people would be FORCED to live below their means for a period of time and save for a down payment. Home ownership would then become what it should be, a privledge...and I bet more people would truly appreciate it then.

In your situation, if you had initially put 20% down, and had a 8 month emergency fund, you would not be in a position to do a short sale today as you would have equity. I am not judging, just making an observation.

In fact, if the 20% down had been in place all along, we would not be here discussing this, home prices would not have gone parabolic, and you probably could have bought exactly the home you now want in the first place. gl

Submitted by george on November 22, 2009 - 2:46pm.

The government did not GIVE anything to the banks. The funds were loaned to them at relatively high interest rates of 5-10% ( see: www.forbes.com/2009/01/02/gmac-tarp-capi...) or exchange for stock.

Most of these institutions have huge assets, but were experiencing self inflicted liquidity problems. Bank of America alone has 2.3 trillion in assets (not including customer deposits), but received only a tiny fraction of that (45 billion??)in emergency funds. As far as loaning money goes, I think the banks are a pretty safe risk. On the other hand if the government had loaned the money to the assetless, deadbeat home owners it truly would have been a giveaway.

I've noticed over the years that deadbeats always rationalize not paying back money that they borrowed in good faith. They delude themselves into thinking that they are justified in stiffing the lender. I'm not saying you’re a deadbeat, but I could see how someone might get that impression reading the rationalizations in some of your posts. You are entirely responsible for your predicament. The situation you are in is a very difficult one, but I think some of the posters here are unsympathetic because they think you may be a whiny deadbeat who blames others for his problems. Walking away from the home when you can still make payments is not the "right" thing to do, but it may be the best decision for you and your family. If you do it I recommend you don't blame the "greedy" banks, realtors, etc. I think you will get a lot more moral support and respect from friends and family if you if you shoulder the blame. Good luck.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 2:59pm.

The last two posters are right, I am coming across badly. Sorry. I shouldn't blame anyone but myself, or at least my ignorance 6 years ago!

Maybe it isn't the "right" thing to do morally, at least that is what a lot of folks want us to feel. It's now a financial reason for me. I'm not a morally bankrupt person, just one of those that fell underwater enough to make a hard decision. That study about how people react at certain break points is so true! FYI, we are far from pulling the trigger here.

Plan will be to save as much as possible for a huge downpayment on a house only when the time is right. Had I been reading this site 6 years ago, I would probably still be renting and saving. Oh well. And to the OP, I'm still not looking for pity, or "pitty" as you put it. :)

Submitted by Arraya on November 22, 2009 - 3:14pm.

Fuck that. Strategic defaults are such a infinitesimal part of this drama it's negligible. It's still at historical averages because of peoples misplaced morals, fear and shame. You went into a contract with a gangster syndicate that used the media and government to pump up an asset bubble for whatever reason.

Breaking a contract with these gangsters is the "right" thing to do. Besides the bank did not put up collateral or "consideration" in legal speak. It was just a ledger entry as the created the money with a keystroke.

Default away and feel good about it. Don't listen to all these whinny bitches about moral and ethics. It is completely "bottom line" from top down. There is no reason to follow a set of ethics that the other party in the contract is not expected to.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 3:18pm.

Arraya wrote:
Fuck that. Strategic defaults are such a infinitesimal part of this drama it's negligible. It's still at historical averages because of peoples misplaced morals, fear and shame. You went into a contract with a gangster syndicate that used the media and government to pump up an asset bubble for whatever reason.

Breaking a contract with these gangsters is the "right" thing to do. Besides the bank did not put up collateral or "consideration" in legal speak. It was just a ledger entry as the created the money with a keystroke.

Default away and feel good about it. Don't listen to all these whinny bitches about moral and ethics. It is completely "bottom line" from top down. There is no reason to follow a set of ethics that the other party in the contract is not expected to.

sweet! This is exactly what I need to hear!

I doubt that will get any responses!

Submitted by mercedes7 on November 22, 2009 - 3:28pm.

SellingMyHome wrote:
The last two posters are right, I am coming across badly. Sorry. I shouldn't blame anyone but myself, or at least my ignorance 6 years ago!

Maybe it isn't the "right" thing to do morally, at least that is what a lot of folks want us to feel. It's now a financial reason for me. I'm not a morally bankrupt person, just one of those that fell underwater enough to make a hard decision. That study about how people react at certain break points is so true! FYI, we are far from pulling the trigger here.

Plan will be to save as much as possible for a huge downpayment on a house only when the time is right. Had I been reading this site 6 years ago, I would probably still be renting and saving. Oh well. And to the OP, I'm still not looking for pity, or "pitty" as you put it. :)

Appreciate your humility. George is right, blaming others (including the banks) and rationalizing is probably what is rubbing people wrong and they are responding to that.

I get the feeling you are probably fairly young as you have young children. In your defense, you probably did not have the benefit of having lived through other down cycles in the real estate market and in 2004 the NAR was still pumping that prices would go up forever. Consequently, I can see that you didn't see this coming.

Nevertheless, you did make the decision to buy when you did...accept that responsibility. And whatever decision you end up making, I hope you can accept whatever consequences come with that decision. gl

Submitted by mercedes7 on November 22, 2009 - 3:44pm.

SellingMyHome wrote:
Arraya wrote:
Fuck that. Strategic defaults are such a infinitesimal part of this drama it's negligible. It's still at historical averages because of peoples misplaced morals, fear and shame. You went into a contract with a gangster syndicate that used the media and government to pump up an asset bubble for whatever reason.

Breaking a contract with these gangsters is the "right" thing to do. Besides the bank did not put up collateral or "consideration" in legal speak. It was just a ledger entry as the created the money with a keystroke.

Default away and feel good about it. Don't listen to all these whinny bitches about moral and ethics. It is completely "bottom line" from top down. There is no reason to follow a set of ethics that the other party in the contract is not expected to.

sweet! This is exactly what I need to hear!

I doubt that will get any responses!

It figures.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 22, 2009 - 3:52pm.

SellingMyHome wrote:
Arraya wrote:
Fuck that. Strategic defaults are such a infinitesimal part of this drama it's negligible. It's still at historical averages because of peoples misplaced morals, fear and shame. You went into a contract with a gangster syndicate that used the media and government to pump up an asset bubble for whatever reason.

Breaking a contract with these gangsters is the "right" thing to do. Besides the bank did not put up collateral or "consideration" in legal speak. It was just a ledger entry as the created the money with a keystroke.

Default away and feel good about it. Don't listen to all these whinny bitches about moral and ethics. It is completely "bottom line" from top down. There is no reason to follow a set of ethics that the other party in the contract is not expected to.

sweet! This is exactly what I need to hear!

I doubt that will get any responses!

Arraya, do you want to address the part where the upside down victimized borrowers feel they are entitled to charity to solve their problems?

Submitted by Arraya on November 22, 2009 - 4:04pm.

Russell wrote:
SellingMyHome wrote:
Arraya wrote:
Fuck that. Strategic defaults are such a infinitesimal part of this drama it's negligible. It's still at historical averages because of peoples misplaced morals, fear and shame. You went into a contract with a gangster syndicate that used the media and government to pump up an asset bubble for whatever reason.

Breaking a contract with these gangsters is the "right" thing to do. Besides the bank did not put up collateral or "consideration" in legal speak. It was just a ledger entry as the created the money with a keystroke.

Default away and feel good about it. Don't listen to all these whinny bitches about moral and ethics. It is completely "bottom line" from top down. There is no reason to follow a set of ethics that the other party in the contract is not expected to.

sweet! This is exactly what I need to hear!

I doubt that will get any responses!

Arraya, do you want to address the part where the upside down victimized borrowers feel they are entitled to charity to solve their problems?

Charity, who said anything about charity. They should all walk away without guilt and feel good about it. The system colludes to keep home prices high and pumped up a bubble by tricking people. The system needs to be taught a lesson. All 20 million upside down homeowners should default.

We have to flush the parasites out somehow since our representatives won't do it. It's the "right" thing to do.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 4:16pm.

Amen brotha, don't stop now, you're on a roll! WooHoo! Lol.

Your words are a bit harsh and may across badly. I wonder if you're not actually being sarcastic?

Submitted by NotCranky on November 22, 2009 - 4:23pm.

Russell wrote:
SellingMyHome wrote:
Why didn't the government pay down our underwater house balances, that money could have gone to the banks. Instead, they gave the money straight to the banks to help pay for the paper losses caused by the badly packaged loans. Giving us the money would have been a win win situation, instead just the greedy banks win!

I'm starting to understand that a lot of people here must be investors or bankers.

Arraya, I guess you didn't read the whole thread. Lots of people think they should get government sponsored mark downs and keep the house and in many cases,all the goodies and good life memories they bought with the equity. Again, I think you can't blame them for trying but it is offensive to think about the mechanisms and repercussions involved. I agree with meandale, I would rather see this level of corruption between the government and the banks than the government and individuals or the government, banks and individuals.

Submitted by Arraya on November 22, 2009 - 4:24pm.

No sarcasm at all. All these people are confused about the depravity of the banking syndicate and projecting their culpability onto the victims. We're all culpable for not speaking up.

This is very much like an abusive family dynamic when a child speaks up about being abused then is scapegoated.

They are scapegoating you because it easier than fixing the system.

You were tricked by doing what normal humans do, which is trust authority and peers. You should not be faulted for that.

Submitted by SellingMyHome on November 22, 2009 - 4:35pm.

Russell wrote:

Arraya, I guess you didn't read the whole thread. Lots of people think they should get government sponsored mark downs and keep the house and in many cases,all the goodies and good life memories they bought with the equity. Again, I think you can't blame them for trying but it is offensive to think about the mechanisms and repercussions involved. I agree with meandale, I would rather see this level of corruption between the government and the banks than the government and individuals or the government, banks and individuals.

I still wonder if there wasn't some way to forgive principal for owners by giving it to their lenders. I've heard Jon Stewart discuss it before, between jokes, and it certainly sounded good to me. He is actually fairly intelligent, is neither liberal or conservative.

I'd like to hear arguments for and against that idea.

Submitted by Coronita on November 22, 2009 - 4:37pm.

SellingMyHome wrote:
I personally didn't take out money to buy crap or pay other debt, I used it to fix up my house.

I'm going to add this to one of my all time favorite quotes... Sorry, not picking on you, but it's just seems like a funny statement, because it seems the two statements are contradictory...Because unless your home was so unliveable that a roof "needed" to be replaced, I'd say most of money use used went to updating "crap" in your home, which is no different that the folks that spend money on "crap" at walmart. "Crap" aka "wants" aren't the same as "needs", and I'm a stickler of folks clearly identifying the difference between the two. I'd say you did spend your money on "crap", unless you utterly spending $500k on an unliveable POS (which would then beg the question of why would anyone do this?)

My advice, if you're looking to a board to try to convince you to do one thing or the other, you're already going down the wrong path. If you already think there is a morale dilemma, well that's a problem you have. Apparently many people don't have a morale dilemma, and I've never been a big stickler of judging by morales. So, again, don't even bother asking for a blog's advice on this..Just do it or don't. And be done with it. Hell, do it a few times if you can live with it.

But at least admit it. You didn't understand what you were getting yourself into, a bank didn't hold you at gunpoint to make you get a liar loan, and the government is very generous these days. Of course, when your kids grow up completely a slave to a foreign country like China and Japan and/or your 401k becomes a 201k with a utterly useless toilet paper inflated U.S. dollar...well, I guess you won't be around to see that anyway...

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