ot. free will

User Forum Topic
Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 28, 2014 - 10:12pm

So after a late nite showing of interstellar the wife and I were up till 1 am discussing whether free will exists with the offspring. She was shocked to learn that they adamantly deny the existence of free will. Their arguments were pretty persuasive but we were sso. Surprised that they had alreadyour thought so hard on nit.

Does free will exist?

Submitted by The-Shoveler on November 29, 2014 - 7:26am.

Not sure, I have become convinced however that just about everyone gains enough speed to get a glimpse beyond the vale once or twice during their lives. Just not sure what it all means.
Oh well, time for another coffee.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 29, 2014 - 8:20am.

Yes, but exercising it very much is not really going to work in lots of areas of life.

For instance, I have 20 Acres with room to put up about a hundred free will advocate families in trailers , if we did that it would be Ruby Ridge all over again.

Almost anywhere you might get boldly free will harm will come to you because of it. March to a different drum is fine up to a point but most people don't really want to as far as I can tell.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 29, 2014 - 9:04am.

Blogstar wrote:
Yes, but exercising it very much is not really going to work in lots of areas of life.

For instance, I have 20 Acres with room to put up about a hundred free will advocate families in trailers , if we did that it would be Ruby Ridge all over again.

Almost anywhere you might get boldly free will harm will come to you because of it. March to a different drum is fine up to a point but most people don't really want to as far as I can tell.

see the lego movie. sing EVERYTHING IS AWESOME

Submitted by NotCranky on November 29, 2014 - 10:04am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
Yes, but exercising it very much is not really going to work in lots of areas of life.

For instance, I have 20 Acres with room to put up about a hundred free will advocate families in trailers , if we did that it would be Ruby Ridge all over again.

Almost anywhere you might get boldly free will harm will come to you because of it. March to a different drum is fine up to a point but most people don't really want to as far as I can tell.

see the lego movie. sing EVERYTHING IS AWESOME


So the kid's dad gets a little softer as needed since he was a jerk. The rest of the whole business doesn't really happen because a kid doesn't want his dad to glue pieces together and say hands off. Great movie though. Happy song and yes, I am the special and so are you. We still can't exercise much free will.

I think Free Will was really a bigger thing in the context of religious mental and social slavery. Maybe it is in context of modern state slavery , like political correctness or something. The whole Ferguson is a civil rights issue is bullshit.

I have the Free Will not to believe any political dogma from any side and make a few choices in my life but still more or less under the directions of a lot of other influence.

Outside of how you think Free Will is pretty limited.

We are from planet Duplo and we're here to rule the world. Even that ending gives truth to the limitations of Free Will, Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Submitted by moneymaker on November 29, 2014 - 10:04am.

Free will exists currently, it may not in the future, once everybody is on prozac, free will will be abolished. Time travel is impossible, as is traveling through a worm hole unscathed, everything is ripped apart at the atomic level when traveling through a worm hole. It is a window to another universe but I would not recommend going through it any more than a regular window. The only way to make a successful trip to another planet is to have "star drive" i.e. a fusion engine. We had better take care of the one planet we have as I don't think we will have any other planet to colonize in the near future.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 29, 2014 - 11:01am.

Well I was under the impression I had free will but my kids were so confident I dont that now I'm uncertainn.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 29, 2014 - 11:03pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Well I was under the impression I had free will but my kids were so confident I dont that now I'm uncertainn.

What do yo do with lots of free will or what could you do with it if you were sure you had it? Posting on blogs that's free will. But in real life. I don't like pretty much anyone and I have the free will to do that but my wife is mad at me about it. What good does it do me? Free will sucks unless you use it for stuff people like ,so that means it is guided by others free will at most.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 29, 2014 - 11:09pm.

http://www.samharris.org/free-will

gonna read that before winter break so i can come better armed to the next discussion...

Submitted by NotCranky on November 29, 2014 - 11:21pm.

I think I'll read "Free Will For Dummies".

Submitted by scaredyclassic on November 29, 2014 - 11:27pm.

Blogstar wrote:
I think I'll read "Free Will For Dummies".

frankly i think that's been predetermined that you will read that.

Submitted by NotCranky on November 30, 2014 - 12:13am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
I think I'll read "Free Will For Dummies".

frankly i think that's been predetermined that you will read that.


LOL , just for that I won't .

Submitted by CA renter on November 30, 2014 - 4:44am.

In some ways yes, in some ways no. We have free will to some extent, but not completely. Maybe...

Depends on how you want to define it, I suppose. Our brains are wired in particular ways, so there is a very real physiological effect on how we perceive and think about things.

Is everything pre-ordained? I'm not so sure. Perhaps the greater frameworks of our lives are, but we have some control over minor things...or maybe we control some major things, but not minor things. Maybe we're just passengers along for the ride. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

Submitted by zk on December 1, 2014 - 1:26pm.

If you knew, hypothetically, the exact state of the universe, and if the laws of physics were constant, and you knew them all, and if you had a (hypothetical) super computer with unlimited computing power, and you programmed that knowledge of the universe and those laws of physics in that computer, could that computer then predict the future of the universe? Everything from who the next president would be to which of your great grandson's sperm would fertilize which of who's egg, to every thought every person would ever have. If not, why not?

Why do we have the thoughts we have and do the things we do? Is there some force outside the laws of physics involved? Sure, the actual process is unimaginably complex. But what else is involved besides the state of the universe and the laws of physics?

Also on the subject:

Say a guy is a murderer. Did he have a choice? What made him the way he is? His environment and his genes? What else is there (not a rhetorical question)? What made him pull the trigger? A hot temper? Where did that come from? An inability to control his temper? Where did that come from? Selfishness? Where did that come from? An inability to empathize? Where did that come from? An inability to control himself in general? Where did that come from? What could have made him more able to control himself? Why didn’t he have it? It’s one thing to say he was weak. It’s another completely to figure out why he was weak and ask whether he had control of that. Sure, let’s say he was weak (-minded). What made him that way? Did he have control over what would or wouldn’t make him not weak? If he did have control over what would make him not weak, why didn’t he exercise that control? What would have made him exercise that control? More empathy? More concern for the law? More concern for society? Why didn’t he have those things? What, besides his genes and his environment, made him who he is? You can’t change your genes. And you can’t change your environment. (Things you have control over and change aren’t your “environment.” Maybe they are after you change them, but now we’re back to questions related to the original questions: Why did he or didn’t he change his environment and why did he change it the way he did?)

So, (and I’m not saying this is the case, I’m saying “if”) if what determines who you are and what you do is your genes and your environment, and you don’t have control over your genes or your environment, do you have any control over what you do? Do you have free will? Sure, I can decide right now to forget this post and do something else. You can decide to stop reading it. We’ll both decide one way or the other. But why? Does the fact that we can make either decision necessarily mean that that decision wasn’t predetermined?

BTW, I’m not suggesting that if a murderer or any other criminal has or doesn’t have true control over whether he commits a crime or not that he shouldn’t be punished. Punishment is necessary as a deterrent. Some people would be (are) swayed from crimes by threat of punishment. Also, society needs to be protected from criminals, sometimes by incarceration. Is it unfair to punish somebody for something he was predetermined to have no control over? Probably. But that doesn’t make it any less necessary. It’s also not fair that some people are born in war-torn, famine-ravaged countries and some are born in wealthy, healthy countries. It’s not fair that some people are born good-looking, socially brilliant, energetic and smart, while some are born ugly, socially inept, sluggish and stupid. If a guy is a murderer, a loser, a mean and very unlikeable person, should we feel sorry for him? I think we should (assuming he’s unhappy, which isn’t always the case). I think we should feel sorry for him every bit as much as we feel sorry for the person who was born in Somalia or the person who is ugly, inept, sluggish and stupid (assuming they’re unhappy, which isn’t always the case). Should we also punish the murderer? I think we must.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on December 1, 2014 - 2:27pm.

zk wrote:
If you knew, hypothetically, the exact state of the universe, and if the laws of physics were constant, and you knew them all, and if you had a (hypothetical) super computer with unlimited computing power, and you programmed that knowledge of the universe and those laws of physics in that computer, could that computer then predict the future of the universe? Everything from who the next president would be to which of your great grandson's sperm would fertilize which of who's egg, to every thought every person would ever have. If not, why not?

Why do we have the thoughts we have and do the things we do? Is there some force outside the laws of physics involved? Sure, the actual process is unimaginably complex. But what else is involved besides the state of the universe and the laws of physics?

Also on the subject:

Say a guy is a murderer. Did he have a choice? What made him the way he is? His environment and his genes? What else is there (not a rhetorical question)? What made him pull the trigger? A hot temper? Where did that come from? An inability to control his temper? Where did that come from? Selfishness? Where did that come from? An inability to empathize? Where did that come from? An inability to control himself in general? Where did that come from? What could have made him more able to control himself? Why didn’t he have it? It’s one thing to say he was weak. It’s another completely to figure out why he was weak and ask whether he had control of that. Sure, let’s say he was weak (-minded). What made him that way? Did he have control over what would or wouldn’t make him not weak? If he did have control over what would make him not weak, why didn’t he exercise that control? What would have made him exercise that control? More empathy? More concern for the law? More concern for society? Why didn’t he have those things? What, besides his genes and his environment, made him who he is? You can’t change your genes. And you can’t change your environment. (Things you have control over and change aren’t your “environment.” Maybe they are after you change them, but now we’re back to questions related to the original questions: Why did he or didn’t he change his environment and why did he change it the way he did?)

So, (and I’m not saying this is the case, I’m saying “if”) if what determines who you are and what you do is your genes and your environment, and you don’t have control over your genes or your environment, do you have any control over what you do? Do you have free will? Sure, I can decide right now to forget this post and do something else. You can decide to stop reading it. We’ll both decide one way or the other. But why? Does the fact that we can make either decision necessarily mean that that decision wasn’t predetermined?

BTW, I’m not suggesting that if a murderer or any other criminal has or doesn’t have true control over whether he commits a crime or not that he shouldn’t be punished. Punishment is necessary as a deterrent. Some people would be (are) swayed from crimes by threat of punishment. Also, society needs to be protected from criminals, sometimes by incarceration. Is it unfair to punish somebody for something he was predetermined to have no control over? Probably. But that doesn’t make it any less necessary. It’s also not fair that some people are born in war-torn, famine-ravaged countries and some are born in wealthy, healthy countries. It’s not fair that some people are born good-looking, socially brilliant, energetic and smart, while some are born ugly, socially inept, sluggish and stupid. If a guy is a murderer, a loser, a mean and very unlikeable person, should we feel sorry for him? I think we should (assuming he’s unhappy, which isn’t always the case). I think we should feel sorry for him every bit as much as we feel sorry for the person who was born in Somalia or the person who is ugly, inept, sluggish and stupid (assuming they’re unhappy, which isn’t always the case). Should we also punish the murderer? I think we must.

Yeah but. Um. It feels choicey.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on December 1, 2014 - 2:53pm.

Maybe free will is like free lunches.

Submitted by njtosd on December 1, 2014 - 3:55pm.

This sounds a lot like a discussion of the theology of John Calvin. He believed in predestination, as did those who followed his teachings (such as the Presbyterians - whose fun filled lifestyle would have appealed to Brian). People spent their lives trying to figure out whether they were the good ones or not (and also liked pointing out the ones who were "bad" because it improved their own odds - sound familiar Brian?).

Submitted by The-Shoveler on December 1, 2014 - 4:59pm.

The Adjustment Bureau
Just kidding sort of.

Submitted by CA renter on December 1, 2014 - 8:08pm.

Good post, zk. That's pretty much how I see it. We might have some choice, but that's within a larger framework over which we have no control. Not sure that qualifies as free will.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on December 2, 2014 - 8:20am.

i choose you, pikachu.

personally i feel like i am the master of my fate and the captain of my soul...

Submitted by The-Shoveler on December 2, 2014 - 8:35am.

That's what your supposed to think.
LOL just kidding.

Just wait until they can use "positron" communication LOL

Feynman, and earlier Stueckelberg, proposed an interpretation of the positron as an electron moving backward in time,[15] reinterpreting the negative-energy solutions of the Dirac equation. Electrons moving backward in time would have a positive electric charge. Wheeler invoked this concept to explain the identical properties shared by all electrons, suggesting that "they are all the same electron" with a complex, self-intersecting worldline.[16] Yoichiro Nambu later applied it to all production and annihilation of particle-antiparticle pairs, stating that "the eventual creation and annihilation of pairs that may occur now and then is no creation or annihilation, but only a change of direction of moving particles, from past to future, or from future to past."[17] The backwards in time point of view is nowadays accepted as completely equivalent to other pictures,[18] .

Submitted by The-Shoveler on December 2, 2014 - 12:41pm.

I heard One physicists describe time as a sort of permanent record we just have the illusion of moving through.
And yes this is going down on your permanent record.

Submitted by njtosd on May 1, 2016 - 7:06am.

Very interesting experiment supports idea that our brains rewrite our recollections to convince ourselves that we had control over an outcome: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind...

Submitted by svelte on May 1, 2016 - 9:20am.

This starts playing in my head every time I see this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH15UhALQw

Submitted by NotCranky on May 1, 2016 - 2:30pm.

svelte wrote:
This starts playing in my head every time I see this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH15UhALQw


Love that song.

I just keep thinking about how I get to use my free will to eat my share of Challah bread and scaredy's too ( since he's all strict and stuff on white flour and sugar).
I like to dip it in pure, and probably not Kosher maple syrup and, have it with copious amounts of coffee.

Submitted by Rich Toscano on May 1, 2016 - 4:28pm.

svelte wrote:
This starts playing in my head every time I see this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH15UhALQw

Yes! A Rush reference on piggington... my life is now complete! ;-)

Submitted by FlyerInHi on May 1, 2016 - 7:04pm.

njtosd wrote:
Very interesting experiment supports idea that our brains rewrite our recollections to convince ourselves that we had control over an outcome: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind...

I wonder how that reconciles with Horatio Alger's bootstrapping. Like "Fix your f'ing life. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps; with a healthy dose of elbow grease and American ingenuity, your life will become f'ing awesome."

Submitted by scaredyclassic on May 1, 2016 - 10:30pm.

Blogstar wrote:
svelte wrote:
This starts playing in my head every time I see this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hH15UhALQw


Love that song.

I just keep thinking about how I get to use my free will to eat my share of Challah bread and scaredy's too ( since he's all strict and stuff on white flour and sugar).
I like to dip it in pure, and probably not Kosher maple syrup and, have it with copious amounts of coffee.

I did eat one piece of bread in the last 30 days, it was too nice to pass up, came with some soup I ordered. Also I had one order of rice one time. But t hats it. I'll try to tighten up till July 1.

Submitted by svelte on May 2, 2016 - 4:49am.

A piece of bread here and there is not a bad thing. I think diets work best if you have a "cheat day" where you can eat what you want. That keeps cravings from getting out of hand.

Even with one cheat day a week, I've hit my weight loss goal and actually am struggling to keep weight on.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on May 2, 2016 - 7:14am.

svelte wrote:
A piece of bread here and there is not a bad thing. I think diets work best if you have a "cheat day" where you can eat what you want. That keeps cravings from getting out of hand.

Even with one cheat day a week, I've hit my weight loss goal and actually am struggling to keep weight on.

This is about creating the optimum mouth environment for gum repair, not weight. I'd eat anything if I thought it would help my gums. I'm convinced flour is bad for the mouth. Even one piece irritated my left rear gum.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on May 2, 2016 - 8:01am.

Scaredy, that's a lot of free will being marshaled for the sake of gum health.

Other people would say "oh well, I need gum graft".

I find it fun to hear people argue that free will has nothing to do with being fat or eating junk food. But "say no to drugs" and "you have the free will to become anything you want in this world" or "with God's help you can abstain from sex."

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