For those who are against For those who are against illegal immigration, do you support more LEGAL immigration in general? Or you would rather have very little immigration in general?
Aecetia
April 30, 2010 @
10:06 AM
Why did you leave out amnesty Why did you leave out amnesty as a choice?
briansd1
April 30, 2010 @
12:42 PM
Aecetia wrote:Why did you [quote=Aecetia]Why did you leave out amnesty as a choice?[/quote]
I guess it is a choice…. since it’s such and emotional issue, I left it out. We can certainly increase legal immigration without amnesty for those already here.
andymajumder
April 30, 2010 @
10:08 AM
Allowing legal immigration of Allowing legal immigration of qualified individuals is the only way to that people who are currently in their 30s can receive social security and medicare benefits. I don’t see why US makes it so difficult right now for people with graduate degrees from US universities to immigrate or settle down here if they wanted to…..it is a well documented fact that immigrants (specially well qualified ones, like people with masters or Phds) have started businesses and overall contributed positively to the economy.
I am not saying only qualified people should be allowed to immigrate, but I think US should have an immigration system like Australia or Canada, a point based system which gives certain points for academic qualifications, work experience…family ties and so on…
NotCranky
April 30, 2010 @
10:13 AM
No. We need to preserve the No. We need to preserve the existing democraphics. More foreigners will adversely affect our culture.
I think you really wanted to say demoCRAPics,Brian. Admit it, you are closet anti-social.
briansd1
April 30, 2010 @
12:40 PM
Russell wrote:
I think you [quote=Russell]
I think you really wanted to say demoCRAPics,Brian. Admit it, you are closet anti-social.[/quote]
haha Freudian slip.
CA renter
April 30, 2010 @
2:40 PM
andymajumder wrote:Allowing [quote=andymajumder]Allowing legal immigration of qualified individuals is the only way to that people who are currently in their 30s can receive social security and medicare benefits. I don’t see why US makes it so difficult right now for people with graduate degrees from US universities to immigrate or settle down here if they wanted to…..it is a well documented fact that immigrants (specially well qualified ones, like people with masters or Phds) have started businesses and overall contributed positively to the economy.
I am not saying only qualified people should be allowed to immigrate, but I think US should have an immigration system like Australia or Canada, a point based system which gives certain points for academic qualifications, work experience…family ties and so on…[/quote]
Totally agree with this.
IMHO, we need a balanced immigration policy where we have a quota each year that is variable, based on the social and economic conditions (high unemployment, racial/ethnic tensions, etc. should affect the quotas) at any given point in time.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @
3:13 PM
CA renter wrote:andymajumder [quote=CA renter][quote=andymajumder]Allowing legal immigration of qualified individuals is the only way to that people who are currently in their 30s can receive social security and medicare benefits. I don’t see why US makes it so difficult right now for people with graduate degrees from US universities to immigrate or settle down here if they wanted to…..it is a well documented fact that immigrants (specially well qualified ones, like people with masters or Phds) have started businesses and overall contributed positively to the economy.
I am not saying only qualified people should be allowed to immigrate, but I think US should have an immigration system like Australia or Canada, a point based system which gives certain points for academic qualifications, work experience…family ties and so on…[/quote]
Totally agree with this.
IMHO, we need a balanced immigration policy where we have a quota each year that is variable, based on the social and economic conditions (high unemployment, racial/ethnic tensions, etc. should affect the quotas) at any given point in time.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree that government is up to the task. CA renter, you must also trust government officilas to regulate banks, set health insurance policies, set interest rates…
I speak only half in jest. We probably need high skill, high wealth immigrants even more during bad economic times. Talk about a stimulus! But what politician is going to authorize that?
MadeInTaiwan
briansd1
April 30, 2010 @
3:50 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote: We [quote=MadeInTaiwan] We probably need high skill, high wealth immigrants even more during bad economic times. Talk about a stimulus! But what politician is going to authorize that?
[/quote]
I agree with that.
However, as scaredycat said before, humans like to compare ourselves to others. When citizen voters are unemployed and insecure, the last thing they want is rich newcomers who will make them feel even more crappy.
But you are correct. We certainly want rich people to bring to America money that they made elsewhere in the world. That would be very smart policy.
Also as you rightly identified, there is prevalent sentiments such as “take our country back” and “take our San Diego back”. People want to go back to an imaginary past when life was good.
CA renter
April 30, 2010 @
6:18 PM
briansd1 wrote:
Also as you [quote=briansd1]
Also as you rightly identified, there is prevalent sentiments such as “take our country back” and “take our San Diego back”. People want to go back to an imaginary past when life was good.[/quote]
Why do you think it’s an “imaginary” past? Do you really believe that we are better off financially and socially than we were 20-30 years ago?
I don’t.
briansd1
May 1, 2010 @
11:37 AM
CA renter wrote:
Why do you [quote=CA renter]
Why do you think it’s an “imaginary” past? Do you really believe that we are better off financially and socially than we were 20-30 years ago?
I don’t.[/quote]
I don’t mind going back in time… because there’s nothing like being young again.
But no, I don’t think that we are worse off than before, as a society. By any measure, we are better off. We are richer (per capita GPD) and we can buy more material goods with the same salary.
Our expectations are greater. That shows in housing especially. Most people live in houses bigger and more luxurious than their parents’.
Of course, each family is different, but as rule, we are better off.
Immigration brought more choices and more diversity to our culture, our food, our music, etc…
CA renter
May 1, 2010 @
2:56 PM
briansd1 wrote:
I don’t mind [quote=briansd1]
I don’t mind going back in time… because there’s nothing like being young again.
But no, I don’t think that we are worse off than before, as a society. By any measure, we are better off. We are richer (per capita GPD) and we can buy more material goods with the same salary.
Our expectations are greater. That shows in housing especially. Most people live in houses bigger and more luxurious than their parents’.
Of course, each family is different, but as rule, we are better off.
Immigration brought more choices and more diversity to our culture, our food, our music, etc…[/quote]
I don’t believe for a second that our purchasing power is greater today.
i like vietnamese food and i like vietnamese food and support more pho.
Hobie
April 30, 2010 @
3:20 PM
CA renter wrote: [quote=CA renter] racial/ethnic tensions, etc. should affect the quotas) at any given point in time.[/quote]
Good idea here.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @
10:17 AM
I voted yes for more workers I voted yes for more workers and taxes, but also feel strongly yes because diversity is good. Even more importantly, immigrants create jobs, specially in the high tech sector. Look at Google, QualComm just to name two.
In fact because I think high skill immigration is such a boom to our country, that I think that the price of low skilled immigration (or illegal for that matter) should be accepted.
Sorry to thread jack here but the “breaking the law” argument is not logical to me. I doubt most people who oppose amnesty will approve of increasing legal low skill immigration 10 or 100 fold. That will certainly make most of subsequent Mexicans/Guatamalans etc coming legal.
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
I am more with Brian on illegal immigration, the costs of enforcing the law to drive out low skill illegal immigrants is far to great compared to any benefits. One cost is to further inflame anti-immigration sentiments and help drive out the high skilled immigrants who might create tomorrow’s Google in India instead of here.
MadeInTaiwan
briansd1
April 30, 2010 @
12:54 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:I voted [quote=MadeInTaiwan]I voted yes for more workers and taxes, but also feel strongly yes because diversity is good.
[/quote]
It should be Made With Quality in Taiwan! It wasn’t that long ago when Made In Taiwan was cheap. But now, it’s of highest quality.
I’m so far the lone voter for more diversity. In my mind, more diversity means more creativity and productivity.
We live in a globalized world and I enjoy meeting, talking to and making friends with people of different backgrounds from mine.
That’s probably because when we were kids, my parents exposed us to all kinds of people and cultures.
[quote=MadeInTaiwan]
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
[/quote]
The world is changing. We need to embrace it and make the best of it or be left behind.
DWCAP
April 30, 2010 @
1:10 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:
Sorry to [quote=MadeInTaiwan]
Sorry to thread jack here but the “breaking the law” argument is not logical to me. I doubt most people who oppose amnesty will approve of increasing legal low skill immigration 10 or 100 fold. That will certainly make most of subsequent Mexicans/Guatamalans etc coming legal.
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
I am more with Brian on illegal immigration, the costs of enforcing the law to drive out low skill illegal immigrants is far to great compared to any benefits. One cost is to further inflame anti-immigration sentiments and help drive out the high skilled immigrants who might create tomorrow’s Google in India instead of here.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
I dont know. Right now this poll is running 14 FOR legal immigration, and 2 against. I think most people, myself included, feel that immigration is a good thing. But method and mode matter.
briansd1
April 30, 2010 @
1:23 PM
DWCAP, I don’t think that we DWCAP, I don’t think that we have enough responses yet.
I expect people who voted against high-skill H1B expansion to be against general immigration expansion as well. Logically, they would be.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @
2:20 PM
DWCAP wrote:MadeInTaiwan [quote=DWCAP][quote=MadeInTaiwan]
Sorry to thread jack here but the “breaking the law” argument is not logical to me. I doubt most people who oppose amnesty will approve of increasing legal low skill immigration 10 or 100 fold. That will certainly make most of subsequent Mexicans/Guatamalans etc coming legal.
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
I am more with Brian on illegal immigration, the costs of enforcing the law to drive out low skill illegal immigrants is far to great compared to any benefits. One cost is to further inflame anti-immigration sentiments and help drive out the high skilled immigrants who might create tomorrow’s Google in India instead of here.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
I dont know. Right now this poll is running 14 FOR legal immigration, and 2 against. I think most people, myself included, feel that immigration is a good thing. But method and mode matter.[/quote]
Time will prove me right or wrong with voters on this board, but I am pretty confident of my description of the general sentiment “out there”.
I think the legalization mode is irrelevant. Here I show my liberatarian side. I think government policy and its implementation cannot be fine tuned enough to be “fair”. We have non-compatible goals, below are some I can think of at the top of my head
* We don’t want big brother tracking us.
* We don’t wan to punish or harrass innocent bystandards
* Enforcing the laws.
* Less government red tape for businesses.
* Lower prices
* Preserve my culture
* We don’t want to use ethnic/racial profiling.
With regards to illegal immigration, I place much higher priority with the the top two then enforcing the laws. Anti illegal/anti amnesty folks obiously feel differently
MadeInTaiwan
sdduuuude
April 30, 2010 @
1:19 PM
A very good question. A very good question.
cdesilva44
April 30, 2010 @
3:49 PM
I support more legal I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
The process also needs to be streamlined so it doesn’t take 20 years for good people to get here.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @
4:44 PM
cdesilva44 wrote:I support [quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
The process also needs to be streamlined so it doesn’t take 20 years for good people to get here.[/quote]
I again suggest that you can’t increase high skill immigration without tolerating high low skilled immigration.
To be a bit uncharitable towards my fellow citizens, I don’t think they can distinquish between the two, specially when times are hard.
MadeInTaiwan
cdesilva44
April 30, 2010 @
7:33 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:cdesilva44 [quote=MadeInTaiwan][quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
The process also needs to be streamlined so it doesn’t take 20 years for good people to get here.[/quote]
I again suggest that you can’t increase high skill immigration without tolerating high low skilled immigration.
To be a bit uncharitable towards my fellow citizens, I don’t think they can distinquish between the two, specially when times are hard.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
My belief is that we have plenty of low skilled workers in the country already, both immigrants and citizens. If we’re ever in need of low skilled workers, there’s a huge pool of welfare recipients who should be required to work in order to receive their money.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @
4:55 PM
cdesilva44 wrote:I support [quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
.[/quote]
I forgot to ask you to clarify. People who are proficient/know some English or people from English speaking countries (with presumed English fluency)?
Past immigrants learned sufficient English, their offsprings certainly did. I don’t see why you imagine current immigrants are any different.
MadeInTaiwan
cdesilva44
April 30, 2010 @
7:31 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:cdesilva44 [quote=MadeInTaiwan][quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
.[/quote]
I forgot to ask you to clarify. People who are proficient/know some English or people from English speaking countries (with presumed English fluency)?
Past immigrants learned sufficient English, their offsprings certainly did. I don’t see why you imagine current immigrants are any different.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
I’m referring to people who are proficient or at least know some English. Many immigrants, mostly illegals from Hispanic countries, know virtually no English and make no effort to learn.
mike92104
April 30, 2010 @
6:50 PM
I’ve always thought that the I’ve always thought that the real problem with illegal immigration was that is was too difficult to immigrate legally. I feel like we should at least have a special provision with Mexico, and Canada too (if they even care) that allows you to live and work in the country as long as you tell us who you are, gain employment, and pay your taxes.
KIBU
May 2, 2010 @
10:59 PM
When I was at the university When I was at the university environment years ago, I admired so much the spirits and yearning for diversity and learning from most students. I used to hold this belief that America is the most amazing country with the incredible spirit and will to learn from the world, the wisest society that take the best of the world and make it become its own, and with that spirits and open mind, they will become the most advance thoughts and civilization…..etc, I often found myself loudly argued that point to my friends.
Long gone are those thoughts as I started to slowly learn and see the greater society, the complexity and contradictions…the advance thoughts and the really backward thoughts….the nice faces and the ugly ones….
I am no longer sure America will maintain its forward looking spirits or will just want to look back and look for the purity of a society they may consider as their “golden age”.
nocommonsense
May 3, 2010 @
7:27 AM
As an educated and legal As an educated and legal asian immigrant, I voted “No. We need to preserve the existing democraphics. More foreigners will adversely affect our culture. ”
America is near or already at the tipping point to turn away from what made her great.
nocommonsense
May 3, 2010 @
7:43 AM
By the way, “Yes. We need By the way, “Yes. We need more workers to pay taxes.” is an increditably naive notion based on the misguided premise that no Americans are available to take the jobs to pay the said taxes.
Let me explain. Firstly, If my assumption is true that you’re talking about the low paying jobs here, maybe you’re not aware—they do NOT pay any appreciable taxes! Read up on the IRS statistics on the distribution of tax burdens base on income.
Secondly if you’re talking about high paying technical jobs, it’s even more misguided. Just ask any Americans working in the various high tech industries and see how they feel about this.
Again I’m saying this as an immigrant. On one hand, I’m beyond grateful for the opportunities America has given me; on the other hand, America reaches a point where she needs to protect her own interest and preserve her cultrual and religious traditions that made her great in the first place. As a person who abandoned his life as he knew it to pursue the American Dream, I of all people (ironic it may seem to you) don’t want to see America change “progressively”.
Anonymous
May 3, 2010 @
8:50 AM
I voted yes on the diversity. I voted yes on the diversity. We thrive when we have more diversity. The problem is it needs to be legal diversity. California is drowning in debt (and by no means am I saying it all due to illegals but a good majority is). I actually partially agree with or understand why “nocommonsense” says what he/she does. Bringing in low skilled labor and retaining those people while bringing in high skilled workers and training them and then saying goodbye as they return to their countries is a shame. Shouldn’t it be the other way? Why do we have so many people come to this country to go to school and become engineers, doctors, etc… and then go home.
With all that said we do need a better guest worker program that will allow low skilled workers in the country to do jobs. I think it funny that we are more lax on immigration than any other county. Has anyone tried to immigrate to any other country? It is tough!
nocommonsense
May 3, 2010 @
9:06 AM
“I think it funny that we are “I think it funny that we are more lax on immigration than any other county.”
Ironically, the US immigration laws are extremely stringent to LAW-BIDING immigrants. I have every right to say this as it took me over 10 years and countless headaches to get my green card and I have a PhD from a top 20 US school and (let me shameless say) am among the best in my field.
The same can be said for the US visa granting rules, which I would go as far as to say in some instances down right inhumane and cruel–White haired visiting parents, who have NO intention to permanently live in the US even if you give them money, are denied visa because some official at the consulate for whatever reason considers them to have immigration intension.
On the other hand, if you’re Mexican and illegal here in the US, you can protest on the streets claiming your “human rights” before the eyes of the cops and there’s not a thing the cops can do about them. Is this country ass backwards or what!
Anonymous
May 3, 2010 @
9:07 AM
OR WHAT! OR WHAT!
UCGal
May 3, 2010 @
9:53 AM
This discussion is very This discussion is very interesting to me.
In previous times immigration was very easy for low skilled workers from Europe – the mass influx of immigrants from Italy, then Ireland at the beginning of the last century come to mind.
My husband’s grandparents (all 4 of them) were part of the migration from Italy to the US. One grandfather was a painter (house painter) – who over time invested wisely and ended up owning a hardware store and several rental properties. By all standards he was successful in life in the US. But it was not based on his stated skills when he immigrated. The other was a tailor, his wife was a dress maker. A higher level of skill – but he was less successful than the low skilled house painter.
As an engineer I feel some concern about the lobbying to expand H1B visas. There are PLENTY of qualified citizen and legal resident applicants – but the employers can pay lower wages to H1B applicants. I see this daily, on the job. My H1B coworkers are paid less, and are basically indentured servants while the company processes (or delays processing) the permanent residence applications. I have coworkers who are totally trapped, unable to pursue different/ better jobs for fear they’d start the clock all over again on their green card applications. They are totally stuck.
I will agree that my H1B coworkers are very smart. I am in no way slamming them or their skillset. But I have friends/coworkers who have applied for the same job that is eventually awarded to H1B – with very similar qualifications. I do not believe that there are not enough resident candidates for most open engineering jobs. Especially in the current economic climate. Companies use H1B to get CHEAPER labor – but skilled workers exist, domestically.
Other countries are actively encouraging immigration to increase their tax base. Going back to Italy as an example – they are encouraging Italian descendants to get dual citizenship – so that they’ll move there and pay taxes. Despite Italy being a Catholic country – the birth rate is pretty low and they need immigrants for population maintenance. I believe Singapore is also making it very easy to get work visas – to encourage taxpayers to move there.
nocommonsense
May 3, 2010 @
10:49 AM
“Companies use H1B to get “Companies use H1B to get CHEAPER labor – but skilled workers exist, domestically.”
Interesting. In my field, H1B workers get paid the same and wind up costing more to the employer due to all the legal cost and hassels. Our industry cares more about hiring the best regardless of origin.
I do agree that there’re plenty of skilled domestic workers for those same jobs. Don’t know about engineering, in my field at least, an American would be hired over an immigrant for sure everything else being equal.
DWCAP
May 3, 2010 @
12:33 PM
nocommonsense wrote:”I think [quote=nocommonsense]”I think it funny that we are more lax on immigration than any other county.”
Ironically, the US immigration laws are extremely stringent to LAW-BIDING immigrants. I have every right to say this as it took me over 10 years and countless headaches to get my green card and I have a PhD from a top 20 US school and (let me shameless say) am among the best in my field.
The same can be said for the US visa granting rules, which I would go as far as to say in some instances down right inhumane and cruel–White haired visiting parents, who have NO intention to permanently live in the US even if you give them money, are denied visa because some official at the consulate for whatever reason considers them to have immigration intension.
On the other hand, if you’re Mexican and illegal here in the US, you can protest on the streets claiming your “human rights” before the eyes of the cops and there’s not a thing the cops can do about them. Is this country ass backwards or what![/quote]
I think this is where alot of the ‘strict’ people are coming from. It is also why I wrote about how apparently immigration law only applys to those born far away. You are sadly only too correct in your analysis IMO.
April 30, 2010 @ 9:56 AM
For those who are against
For those who are against illegal immigration, do you support more LEGAL immigration in general? Or you would rather have very little immigration in general?
April 30, 2010 @ 10:06 AM
Why did you leave out amnesty
Why did you leave out amnesty as a choice?
April 30, 2010 @ 12:42 PM
Aecetia wrote:Why did you
[quote=Aecetia]Why did you leave out amnesty as a choice?[/quote]
I guess it is a choice…. since it’s such and emotional issue, I left it out. We can certainly increase legal immigration without amnesty for those already here.
April 30, 2010 @ 10:08 AM
Allowing legal immigration of
Allowing legal immigration of qualified individuals is the only way to that people who are currently in their 30s can receive social security and medicare benefits. I don’t see why US makes it so difficult right now for people with graduate degrees from US universities to immigrate or settle down here if they wanted to…..it is a well documented fact that immigrants (specially well qualified ones, like people with masters or Phds) have started businesses and overall contributed positively to the economy.
I am not saying only qualified people should be allowed to immigrate, but I think US should have an immigration system like Australia or Canada, a point based system which gives certain points for academic qualifications, work experience…family ties and so on…
April 30, 2010 @ 10:13 AM
No. We need to preserve the
No. We need to preserve the existing democraphics. More foreigners will adversely affect our culture.
I think you really wanted to say demoCRAPics,Brian. Admit it, you are closet anti-social.
April 30, 2010 @ 12:40 PM
Russell wrote:
I think you
[quote=Russell]
I think you really wanted to say demoCRAPics,Brian. Admit it, you are closet anti-social.[/quote]
haha Freudian slip.
April 30, 2010 @ 2:40 PM
andymajumder wrote:Allowing
[quote=andymajumder]Allowing legal immigration of qualified individuals is the only way to that people who are currently in their 30s can receive social security and medicare benefits. I don’t see why US makes it so difficult right now for people with graduate degrees from US universities to immigrate or settle down here if they wanted to…..it is a well documented fact that immigrants (specially well qualified ones, like people with masters or Phds) have started businesses and overall contributed positively to the economy.
I am not saying only qualified people should be allowed to immigrate, but I think US should have an immigration system like Australia or Canada, a point based system which gives certain points for academic qualifications, work experience…family ties and so on…[/quote]
Totally agree with this.
IMHO, we need a balanced immigration policy where we have a quota each year that is variable, based on the social and economic conditions (high unemployment, racial/ethnic tensions, etc. should affect the quotas) at any given point in time.
April 30, 2010 @ 3:13 PM
CA renter wrote:andymajumder
[quote=CA renter][quote=andymajumder]Allowing legal immigration of qualified individuals is the only way to that people who are currently in their 30s can receive social security and medicare benefits. I don’t see why US makes it so difficult right now for people with graduate degrees from US universities to immigrate or settle down here if they wanted to…..it is a well documented fact that immigrants (specially well qualified ones, like people with masters or Phds) have started businesses and overall contributed positively to the economy.
I am not saying only qualified people should be allowed to immigrate, but I think US should have an immigration system like Australia or Canada, a point based system which gives certain points for academic qualifications, work experience…family ties and so on…[/quote]
Totally agree with this.
IMHO, we need a balanced immigration policy where we have a quota each year that is variable, based on the social and economic conditions (high unemployment, racial/ethnic tensions, etc. should affect the quotas) at any given point in time.[/quote]
I respectfully disagree that government is up to the task. CA renter, you must also trust government officilas to regulate banks, set health insurance policies, set interest rates…
I speak only half in jest. We probably need high skill, high wealth immigrants even more during bad economic times. Talk about a stimulus! But what politician is going to authorize that?
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @ 3:50 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote: We
[quote=MadeInTaiwan] We probably need high skill, high wealth immigrants even more during bad economic times. Talk about a stimulus! But what politician is going to authorize that?
[/quote]
I agree with that.
However, as scaredycat said before, humans like to compare ourselves to others. When citizen voters are unemployed and insecure, the last thing they want is rich newcomers who will make them feel even more crappy.
But you are correct. We certainly want rich people to bring to America money that they made elsewhere in the world. That would be very smart policy.
Also as you rightly identified, there is prevalent sentiments such as “take our country back” and “take our San Diego back”. People want to go back to an imaginary past when life was good.
April 30, 2010 @ 6:18 PM
briansd1 wrote:
Also as you
[quote=briansd1]
Also as you rightly identified, there is prevalent sentiments such as “take our country back” and “take our San Diego back”. People want to go back to an imaginary past when life was good.[/quote]
Why do you think it’s an “imaginary” past? Do you really believe that we are better off financially and socially than we were 20-30 years ago?
I don’t.
May 1, 2010 @ 11:37 AM
CA renter wrote:
Why do you
[quote=CA renter]
Why do you think it’s an “imaginary” past? Do you really believe that we are better off financially and socially than we were 20-30 years ago?
I don’t.[/quote]
I don’t mind going back in time… because there’s nothing like being young again.
But no, I don’t think that we are worse off than before, as a society. By any measure, we are better off. We are richer (per capita GPD) and we can buy more material goods with the same salary.
Our expectations are greater. That shows in housing especially. Most people live in houses bigger and more luxurious than their parents’.
Of course, each family is different, but as rule, we are better off.
Immigration brought more choices and more diversity to our culture, our food, our music, etc…
May 1, 2010 @ 2:56 PM
briansd1 wrote:
I don’t mind
[quote=briansd1]
I don’t mind going back in time… because there’s nothing like being young again.
But no, I don’t think that we are worse off than before, as a society. By any measure, we are better off. We are richer (per capita GPD) and we can buy more material goods with the same salary.
Our expectations are greater. That shows in housing especially. Most people live in houses bigger and more luxurious than their parents’.
Of course, each family is different, but as rule, we are better off.
Immigration brought more choices and more diversity to our culture, our food, our music, etc…[/quote]
I don’t believe for a second that our purchasing power is greater today.
Elizabeth Warren covered it well here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
May 2, 2010 @ 5:00 PM
i like vietnamese food and
i like vietnamese food and support more pho.
April 30, 2010 @ 3:20 PM
CA renter wrote:
[quote=CA renter] racial/ethnic tensions, etc. should affect the quotas) at any given point in time.[/quote]
Good idea here.
April 30, 2010 @ 10:17 AM
I voted yes for more workers
I voted yes for more workers and taxes, but also feel strongly yes because diversity is good. Even more importantly, immigrants create jobs, specially in the high tech sector. Look at Google, QualComm just to name two.
In fact because I think high skill immigration is such a boom to our country, that I think that the price of low skilled immigration (or illegal for that matter) should be accepted.
Sorry to thread jack here but the “breaking the law” argument is not logical to me. I doubt most people who oppose amnesty will approve of increasing legal low skill immigration 10 or 100 fold. That will certainly make most of subsequent Mexicans/Guatamalans etc coming legal.
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
I am more with Brian on illegal immigration, the costs of enforcing the law to drive out low skill illegal immigrants is far to great compared to any benefits. One cost is to further inflame anti-immigration sentiments and help drive out the high skilled immigrants who might create tomorrow’s Google in India instead of here.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @ 12:54 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:I voted
[quote=MadeInTaiwan]I voted yes for more workers and taxes, but also feel strongly yes because diversity is good.
[/quote]
It should be Made With Quality in Taiwan! It wasn’t that long ago when Made In Taiwan was cheap. But now, it’s of highest quality.
I’m so far the lone voter for more diversity. In my mind, more diversity means more creativity and productivity.
We live in a globalized world and I enjoy meeting, talking to and making friends with people of different backgrounds from mine.
That’s probably because when we were kids, my parents exposed us to all kinds of people and cultures.
[quote=MadeInTaiwan]
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
[/quote]
The world is changing. We need to embrace it and make the best of it or be left behind.
April 30, 2010 @ 1:10 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:
Sorry to
[quote=MadeInTaiwan]
Sorry to thread jack here but the “breaking the law” argument is not logical to me. I doubt most people who oppose amnesty will approve of increasing legal low skill immigration 10 or 100 fold. That will certainly make most of subsequent Mexicans/Guatamalans etc coming legal.
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
I am more with Brian on illegal immigration, the costs of enforcing the law to drive out low skill illegal immigrants is far to great compared to any benefits. One cost is to further inflame anti-immigration sentiments and help drive out the high skilled immigrants who might create tomorrow’s Google in India instead of here.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
I dont know. Right now this poll is running 14 FOR legal immigration, and 2 against. I think most people, myself included, feel that immigration is a good thing. But method and mode matter.
April 30, 2010 @ 1:23 PM
DWCAP, I don’t think that we
DWCAP, I don’t think that we have enough responses yet.
I expect people who voted against high-skill H1B expansion to be against general immigration expansion as well. Logically, they would be.
April 30, 2010 @ 2:20 PM
DWCAP wrote:MadeInTaiwan
[quote=DWCAP][quote=MadeInTaiwan]
Sorry to thread jack here but the “breaking the law” argument is not logical to me. I doubt most people who oppose amnesty will approve of increasing legal low skill immigration 10 or 100 fold. That will certainly make most of subsequent Mexicans/Guatamalans etc coming legal.
I sense this is the once dominant majority feeling squeezed and overwhelmed by people who appear very different from them. While I sympathize with their angst I don’t agree with it, nor do I know how to sooth it.
I am more with Brian on illegal immigration, the costs of enforcing the law to drive out low skill illegal immigrants is far to great compared to any benefits. One cost is to further inflame anti-immigration sentiments and help drive out the high skilled immigrants who might create tomorrow’s Google in India instead of here.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
I dont know. Right now this poll is running 14 FOR legal immigration, and 2 against. I think most people, myself included, feel that immigration is a good thing. But method and mode matter.[/quote]
Time will prove me right or wrong with voters on this board, but I am pretty confident of my description of the general sentiment “out there”.
I think the legalization mode is irrelevant. Here I show my liberatarian side. I think government policy and its implementation cannot be fine tuned enough to be “fair”. We have non-compatible goals, below are some I can think of at the top of my head
* We don’t want big brother tracking us.
* We don’t wan to punish or harrass innocent bystandards
* Enforcing the laws.
* Less government red tape for businesses.
* Lower prices
* Preserve my culture
* We don’t want to use ethnic/racial profiling.
With regards to illegal immigration, I place much higher priority with the the top two then enforcing the laws. Anti illegal/anti amnesty folks obiously feel differently
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @ 1:19 PM
A very good question.
A very good question.
April 30, 2010 @ 3:49 PM
I support more legal
I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
The process also needs to be streamlined so it doesn’t take 20 years for good people to get here.
April 30, 2010 @ 4:44 PM
cdesilva44 wrote:I support
[quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
The process also needs to be streamlined so it doesn’t take 20 years for good people to get here.[/quote]
I again suggest that you can’t increase high skill immigration without tolerating high low skilled immigration.
To be a bit uncharitable towards my fellow citizens, I don’t think they can distinquish between the two, specially when times are hard.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @ 7:33 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:cdesilva44
[quote=MadeInTaiwan][quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
The process also needs to be streamlined so it doesn’t take 20 years for good people to get here.[/quote]
I again suggest that you can’t increase high skill immigration without tolerating high low skilled immigration.
To be a bit uncharitable towards my fellow citizens, I don’t think they can distinquish between the two, specially when times are hard.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
My belief is that we have plenty of low skilled workers in the country already, both immigrants and citizens. If we’re ever in need of low skilled workers, there’s a huge pool of welfare recipients who should be required to work in order to receive their money.
April 30, 2010 @ 4:55 PM
cdesilva44 wrote:I support
[quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
.[/quote]
I forgot to ask you to clarify. People who are proficient/know some English or people from English speaking countries (with presumed English fluency)?
Past immigrants learned sufficient English, their offsprings certainly did. I don’t see why you imagine current immigrants are any different.
MadeInTaiwan
April 30, 2010 @ 7:31 PM
MadeInTaiwan wrote:cdesilva44
[quote=MadeInTaiwan][quote=cdesilva44]I support more legal immigration as long as it means bringing in skilled, English-speaking people. We have plenty of low-skilled workers as it is.
.[/quote]
I forgot to ask you to clarify. People who are proficient/know some English or people from English speaking countries (with presumed English fluency)?
Past immigrants learned sufficient English, their offsprings certainly did. I don’t see why you imagine current immigrants are any different.
MadeInTaiwan[/quote]
I’m referring to people who are proficient or at least know some English. Many immigrants, mostly illegals from Hispanic countries, know virtually no English and make no effort to learn.
April 30, 2010 @ 6:50 PM
I’ve always thought that the
I’ve always thought that the real problem with illegal immigration was that is was too difficult to immigrate legally. I feel like we should at least have a special provision with Mexico, and Canada too (if they even care) that allows you to live and work in the country as long as you tell us who you are, gain employment, and pay your taxes.
May 2, 2010 @ 10:59 PM
When I was at the university
When I was at the university environment years ago, I admired so much the spirits and yearning for diversity and learning from most students. I used to hold this belief that America is the most amazing country with the incredible spirit and will to learn from the world, the wisest society that take the best of the world and make it become its own, and with that spirits and open mind, they will become the most advance thoughts and civilization…..etc, I often found myself loudly argued that point to my friends.
Long gone are those thoughts as I started to slowly learn and see the greater society, the complexity and contradictions…the advance thoughts and the really backward thoughts….the nice faces and the ugly ones….
I am no longer sure America will maintain its forward looking spirits or will just want to look back and look for the purity of a society they may consider as their “golden age”.
May 3, 2010 @ 7:27 AM
As an educated and legal
As an educated and legal asian immigrant, I voted “No. We need to preserve the existing democraphics. More foreigners will adversely affect our culture. ”
America is near or already at the tipping point to turn away from what made her great.
May 3, 2010 @ 7:43 AM
By the way, “Yes. We need
By the way, “Yes. We need more workers to pay taxes.” is an increditably naive notion based on the misguided premise that no Americans are available to take the jobs to pay the said taxes.
Let me explain. Firstly, If my assumption is true that you’re talking about the low paying jobs here, maybe you’re not aware—they do NOT pay any appreciable taxes! Read up on the IRS statistics on the distribution of tax burdens base on income.
Secondly if you’re talking about high paying technical jobs, it’s even more misguided. Just ask any Americans working in the various high tech industries and see how they feel about this.
Again I’m saying this as an immigrant. On one hand, I’m beyond grateful for the opportunities America has given me; on the other hand, America reaches a point where she needs to protect her own interest and preserve her cultrual and religious traditions that made her great in the first place. As a person who abandoned his life as he knew it to pursue the American Dream, I of all people (ironic it may seem to you) don’t want to see America change “progressively”.
May 3, 2010 @ 8:50 AM
I voted yes on the diversity.
I voted yes on the diversity. We thrive when we have more diversity. The problem is it needs to be legal diversity. California is drowning in debt (and by no means am I saying it all due to illegals but a good majority is). I actually partially agree with or understand why “nocommonsense” says what he/she does. Bringing in low skilled labor and retaining those people while bringing in high skilled workers and training them and then saying goodbye as they return to their countries is a shame. Shouldn’t it be the other way? Why do we have so many people come to this country to go to school and become engineers, doctors, etc… and then go home.
With all that said we do need a better guest worker program that will allow low skilled workers in the country to do jobs. I think it funny that we are more lax on immigration than any other county. Has anyone tried to immigrate to any other country? It is tough!
May 3, 2010 @ 9:06 AM
“I think it funny that we are
“I think it funny that we are more lax on immigration than any other county.”
Ironically, the US immigration laws are extremely stringent to LAW-BIDING immigrants. I have every right to say this as it took me over 10 years and countless headaches to get my green card and I have a PhD from a top 20 US school and (let me shameless say) am among the best in my field.
The same can be said for the US visa granting rules, which I would go as far as to say in some instances down right inhumane and cruel–White haired visiting parents, who have NO intention to permanently live in the US even if you give them money, are denied visa because some official at the consulate for whatever reason considers them to have immigration intension.
On the other hand, if you’re Mexican and illegal here in the US, you can protest on the streets claiming your “human rights” before the eyes of the cops and there’s not a thing the cops can do about them. Is this country ass backwards or what!
May 3, 2010 @ 9:07 AM
OR WHAT!
OR WHAT!
May 3, 2010 @ 9:53 AM
This discussion is very
This discussion is very interesting to me.
In previous times immigration was very easy for low skilled workers from Europe – the mass influx of immigrants from Italy, then Ireland at the beginning of the last century come to mind.
My husband’s grandparents (all 4 of them) were part of the migration from Italy to the US. One grandfather was a painter (house painter) – who over time invested wisely and ended up owning a hardware store and several rental properties. By all standards he was successful in life in the US. But it was not based on his stated skills when he immigrated. The other was a tailor, his wife was a dress maker. A higher level of skill – but he was less successful than the low skilled house painter.
As an engineer I feel some concern about the lobbying to expand H1B visas. There are PLENTY of qualified citizen and legal resident applicants – but the employers can pay lower wages to H1B applicants. I see this daily, on the job. My H1B coworkers are paid less, and are basically indentured servants while the company processes (or delays processing) the permanent residence applications. I have coworkers who are totally trapped, unable to pursue different/ better jobs for fear they’d start the clock all over again on their green card applications. They are totally stuck.
I will agree that my H1B coworkers are very smart. I am in no way slamming them or their skillset. But I have friends/coworkers who have applied for the same job that is eventually awarded to H1B – with very similar qualifications. I do not believe that there are not enough resident candidates for most open engineering jobs. Especially in the current economic climate. Companies use H1B to get CHEAPER labor – but skilled workers exist, domestically.
Other countries are actively encouraging immigration to increase their tax base. Going back to Italy as an example – they are encouraging Italian descendants to get dual citizenship – so that they’ll move there and pay taxes. Despite Italy being a Catholic country – the birth rate is pretty low and they need immigrants for population maintenance. I believe Singapore is also making it very easy to get work visas – to encourage taxpayers to move there.
May 3, 2010 @ 10:49 AM
“Companies use H1B to get
“Companies use H1B to get CHEAPER labor – but skilled workers exist, domestically.”
Interesting. In my field, H1B workers get paid the same and wind up costing more to the employer due to all the legal cost and hassels. Our industry cares more about hiring the best regardless of origin.
I do agree that there’re plenty of skilled domestic workers for those same jobs. Don’t know about engineering, in my field at least, an American would be hired over an immigrant for sure everything else being equal.
May 3, 2010 @ 12:33 PM
nocommonsense wrote:”I think
[quote=nocommonsense]”I think it funny that we are more lax on immigration than any other county.”
Ironically, the US immigration laws are extremely stringent to LAW-BIDING immigrants. I have every right to say this as it took me over 10 years and countless headaches to get my green card and I have a PhD from a top 20 US school and (let me shameless say) am among the best in my field.
The same can be said for the US visa granting rules, which I would go as far as to say in some instances down right inhumane and cruel–White haired visiting parents, who have NO intention to permanently live in the US even if you give them money, are denied visa because some official at the consulate for whatever reason considers them to have immigration intension.
On the other hand, if you’re Mexican and illegal here in the US, you can protest on the streets claiming your “human rights” before the eyes of the cops and there’s not a thing the cops can do about them. Is this country ass backwards or what![/quote]
I think this is where alot of the ‘strict’ people are coming from. It is also why I wrote about how apparently immigration law only applys to those born far away. You are sadly only too correct in your analysis IMO.