o.t. :braided stainless steel water line or soft copper (dishwasher)

User Forum Topic
Submitted by outtamojo on July 20, 2016 - 12:28pm

I was all set to install my new dishwasher when I read the manual and it said to replace braided lines every 5 years. If that's the case, better to put up with the initial hassle of copper lines for longer life?

Submitted by ucodegen on July 22, 2016 - 11:43pm.

Even though it is 'soft copper', it is still considered a 'hard-line' connect. Hard line connects have a problem with vibration (metal fatigue). You can use circular coils of copper to reduce vibration problems providing that the coil does not resonate with the device.

I wonder about the type of 'braided' lines we are talking about. There are braided lines and then there are braided lines.. I have found that stainless steel full closure braid will last longer than 5 years.

Submitted by Coronita on July 23, 2016 - 10:01am.

Ive never had a problem with my dishwasher hose leaking. I just use a rubber hose, its not even braided. Its been like this for 18years. I replaced the dishwasher myself when I first moved in, but never replaced the original hose from the previous owner. I run my dishwasher every 3rd day so I'm not sure if using it more frequently or less frequently is better/worse for the hoses.

The leaks I have had were with water shutoff valves all over the house...The old style screw-in type shutoff valves are notorious for leaking if you don't use them most of the time, and seem to fail in the rare cases you actually need to use them to replace a fixture.

I'd recommend for every fixture, waterline, you replace the shutoff valve if is one of the really old screw in type... Replace them with the newer ones that are quarter turn shutoff valves. They aren't that hard to replace, but well worth it especially on older homes. The worst situation is when you have a fixture that leaks, and you try to shutoff the water line, and the valve itself is broken.
Basically, most valves are compression type fittings that sit over regular copper pipes, so it's a matter of unscrewing the lock nut, and than screwing in the new valve tight. You'll know if you screwed up and didn't install it correctly, because the thing will either fall right off or leak massively.

Also , since my washer and dryer on upstairs, I've gotten into a habit of shutting off the water lines when I'm not using the washer, in addition having large drip tray that empties into a built drain. also i have a water sensor that is hooked up to my alarm system.

Also, if you don't already have one, I'd get a shutoff valve installed on the water line running just into your house. If you have already have one, I'd make sure that it works. Normally, if I were to go on a short trip lasting longer than 2 days, I would just shutoff the water running into the house, and leave the water running to the irrigation systems....Unfortunately, that valve is also currently broken and doesnt shutoff (surprise surprise)...and i haven't gotten around to replacing it. It's a little more complicated since I think mine needs to be cut out and welded.

Submitted by spdrun on July 23, 2016 - 10:11am.

The worst are the water valves with corrugated hoses permanently attached, from the 80s. Pure junk. If you have those, replace ASAP.

Technically, your water valve doesn't need to be welded. It needs to be soldered. Easy enough to do with a blowtorch, some flux, and some solder, but you need to get the water co to shut off the water to the house since you can't solder a squirting pipe.

You can also get a freezing kit that creates an ice plug in the pipe further from where you will solder.

As far as the valve in future, close and open it once every month or so. That keeps deposits from building up and jamming it open or making it leak.

Submitted by Coronita on July 23, 2016 - 10:27am.

spdrun wrote:
The worst are the water valves with corrugated hoses permanently attached, from the 80s. Pure junk. If you have those, replace ASAP.

Technically, your water valve doesn't need to be welded. It needs to be soldered. Easy enough to do with a blowtorch, some flux, and some solder, but you need to get the water co to shut off the water to the house since you can't solder a squirting pipe.

You can also get a freezing kit that creates an ice plug in the pipe further from where you will solder.

As far as the valve in future, close and open it once every month or so. That keeps deposits from building up and jamming it open or making it leak.

I know exactly what you are talking about those old style valves. I still had a few in one of my houses. The trick to making sure those old valves never leak? Never use them...

I meant solder, not weld. But its still a pita. I do have a main water line shutoff that shuts off water to the entire property and one that just shuts off the irrigation. It's funny both of those work just fine. Whoever decided to put this screw=type drop gate shutoff valve for the house water line, however, was a moron.

Submitted by ucodegen on July 25, 2016 - 2:08pm.

flu wrote:
Ive never had a problem with my dishwasher hose leaking. I just use a rubber hose, its not even braided. Its been like this for 18years. I replaced the dishwasher myself when I first moved in, but never replaced the original hose from the previous owner. I run my dishwasher every 3rd day so I'm not sure if using it more frequently or less frequently is better/worse for the hoses.

I think you got a bit lucky. They usually start decaying from the inside (outside would look fine). The hot water is the one that tends to go first. (the decay is kind of like what happens with auto hoses)

flu wrote:
The leaks I have had were with water shutoff valves all over the house...The old style screw-in type shutoff valves are notorious for leaking if you don't use them most of the time, and seem to fail in the rare cases you actually need to use them to replace a fixture.

I never had problems with the really old screw-in types (all brass). The problems I have had are with the nylon stem screw-ins. The nylon stems like to bond with the valve body. The stems are not rigid enough to push/torque past any calcium buildup in the valve. I do like the ball valves (since all you really need is on-off), provided that the ball and stem are stainless (seats tend to be teflon). As things sometimes go, I think some manufacturers are going to try nylon for the ball-cock valves too...

flu wrote:

Basically, most valves are compression type fittings that sit over regular copper pipes, so it's a matter of unscrewing the lock nut, and than screwing in the new valve tight. You'll know if you screwed up and didn't install it correctly, because the thing will either fall right off or leak massively.

One warning here. I have noticed that some of the current valves coming out of some of the big-box hardware stores have incorrect threads on their compression fittings (non-standard threads). Brasscraft seems to be one of them. Don't force the threads if they don't tighten right. They may be slightly off (suspect Chinese mfr and differences between metric and SAE)
flu wrote:

Also , since my washer and dryer on upstairs, I've gotten into a habit of shutting off the water lines when I'm not using the washer, in addition having large drip tray that empties into a built drain. also i have a water sensor that is hooked up to my alarm system.

This is a very good idea. One of the problems though is that many houses are not built with a drain in the floor of the laundry room. The '60s house I grew up in had one.. but I have seen many since that don't have that drain.
flu wrote:

Also, if you don't already have one, I'd get a shutoff valve installed on the water line running just into your house. If you have already have one, I'd make sure that it works.
I would recommend putting it right before the pressure regulator, if your house has one. I makes servicing the regulator easier too
flu wrote:
Unfortunately, that valve is also currently broken and doesnt shutoff (surprise surprise)...and i haven't gotten around to replacing it. It's a little more complicated since I think mine needs to be cut out and welded.
They are usually not welded, they are soldered. I would recommend using a MAP gas torch instead of propane though. On the 3/4 and above fittings, you need to dump heat into them to get the solder to melt - particularly if any part is near an even larger piece of copper or brass (both transfer heat away very well).

Let me add a question here.. are you talking about the street shutoff not working or the shutoff valve to the house not working?

Submitted by Coronita on July 25, 2016 - 2:56pm.

ucodegen wrote:
flu wrote:
Ive never had a problem with my dishwasher hose leaking. I just use a rubber hose, its not even braided. Its been like this for 18years. I replaced the dishwasher myself when I first moved in, but never replaced the original hose from the previous owner. I run my dishwasher every 3rd day so I'm not sure if using it more frequently or less frequently is better/worse for the hoses.

I think you got a bit lucky. They usually start decaying from the inside (outside would look fine). The hot water is the one that tends to go first. (the decay is kind of like what happens with auto hoses)

flu wrote:
The leaks I have had were with water shutoff valves all over the house...The old style screw-in type shutoff valves are notorious for leaking if you don't use them most of the time, and seem to fail in the rare cases you actually need to use them to replace a fixture.

I never had problems with the really old screw-in types (all brass). The problems I have had are with the nylon stem screw-ins. The nylon stems like to bond with the valve body. The stems are not rigid enough to push/torque past any calcium buildup in the valve. I do like the ball valves (since all you really need is on-off), provided that the ball and stem are stainless (seats tend to be teflon). As things sometimes go, I think some manufacturers are going to try nylon for the ball-cock valves too...

flu wrote:

Basically, most valves are compression type fittings that sit over regular copper pipes, so it's a matter of unscrewing the lock nut, and than screwing in the new valve tight. You'll know if you screwed up and didn't install it correctly, because the thing will either fall right off or leak massively.

One warning here. I have noticed that some of the current valves coming out of some of the big-box hardware stores have incorrect threads on their compression fittings (non-standard threads). Brasscraft seems to be one of them. Don't force the threads if they don't tighten right. They may be slightly off (suspect Chinese mfr and differences between metric and SAE)
flu wrote:

Also , since my washer and dryer on upstairs, I've gotten into a habit of shutting off the water lines when I'm not using the washer, in addition having large drip tray that empties into a built drain. also i have a water sensor that is hooked up to my alarm system.

This is a very good idea. One of the problems though is that many houses are not built with a drain in the floor of the laundry room. The '60s house I grew up in had one.. but I have seen many since that don't have that drain.
flu wrote:

Also, if you don't already have one, I'd get a shutoff valve installed on the water line running just into your house. If you have already have one, I'd make sure that it works.
I would recommend putting it right before the pressure regulator, if your house has one. I makes servicing the regulator easier too
flu wrote:
Unfortunately, that valve is also currently broken and doesnt shutoff (surprise surprise)...and i haven't gotten around to replacing it. It's a little more complicated since I think mine needs to be cut out and welded.
They are usually not welded, they are soldered. I would recommend using a MAP gas torch instead of propane though. On the 3/4 and above fittings, you need to dump heat into them to get the solder to melt - particularly if any part is near an even larger piece of copper or brass (both transfer heat away very well).

Let me add a question here.. are you talking about the street shutoff not working or the shutoff valve to the house not working?

Street shutoff works fine. The one to the house after thr street shutoff is not.

Yes I meant soldered not welded.

Submitted by ucodegen on July 26, 2016 - 12:11am.

flu wrote:

Street shutoff works fine. The one to the house after thr street shutoff is not.

Yes I meant soldered not welded.

Ok. Then it would be soldered.. and should be reasonable to accomplish. I would still suggest MAP gas, not Propane. MAP Gas requires a different torch head than Propane (It needs more oxygen) but you get a lot more heat. MAP Gas = methylacetylene-propadiene propane (a mouthful), note that acetylene is a component. It comes in the yellow tanks.

Submitted by La Jolla Renter on July 26, 2016 - 7:19pm.

When I go to replace our dish washer, I am going to put a pan underneath and put a direct to daylight drain in.

Too much value in the kitchen cabinets and flooring to end up with a flood.

Does anyone have the wifi moisture sensors under there sinks, dishwasher, cloths washer etc.? The ones that text you when there is a problem? They seem like a good idea.

Submitted by Coronita on July 26, 2016 - 7:58pm.

La Jolla Renter wrote:
When I go to replace our dish washer, I am going to put a pan underneath and put a direct to daylight drain in.

Too much value in the kitchen cabinets and flooring to end up with a flood.

Does anyone have the wifi moisture sensors under there sinks, dishwasher, cloths washer etc.? The ones that text you when there is a problem? They seem like a good idea.

My alarm system has the water sensors, so I use the ones that come from my alarm company. I think they were about $30 each with no additional monitoring charges. My monthly monitoring charge over cellular link, including smart phone integration is $25/month

But I think the sensors are only good if you are home or close to home.. If you are away on an extended trip, there is no substitute for just shutting off the water supply line into your house.

Submitted by ucodegen on July 27, 2016 - 1:49am.

flu wrote:

My alarm system has the water sensors, so I use the ones that come from my alarm company. I think they were about $30 each with no additional monitoring charges. My monthly monitoring charge over cellular link, including smart phone integration is $25/month

But I think the sensors are only good if you are home or close to home.. If you are away on an extended trip, there is no substitute for just shutting off the water supply line into your house.


How about a soleniod control valve after the shutoff valve, but before the regulator?
https://www.google.com/search?q=solenoid...

Plug it into a power relay connected to your house management system...

WiFi controlled dishwasher? - just thoughts... computerized home electronic projects....

or
https://www.zoro.com/floodmaster-water-h...

Submitted by FlyerInHi on March 31, 2017 - 11:23pm.

I just installed a dishwasher. I used a soft copper line. I like this better because I can cut it just the right length. Perfect.

For the toilet, I like the chrome supply line because it just looks nicer and cleaner. What do you think about longevity compared to the stainless braided lines?

Submitted by ltsddd on April 1, 2017 - 8:14am.

I like braided lines for durability and value. Soft copper lines may be "soft" but they're still susceptible to being bent and kinks.

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