OT: Battle Ground Zero: Murrieta: Invasion of America

User Forum Topic
Submitted by paramount on July 6, 2014 - 12:09am

What is going with this alleged unaccompanied child/family immigrant wave?

I don't recall this type of crisis happening on this scale 5 or 10 years ago -> change of immigration laws, corps looking for cheap labor?

An administration based "Come to America" campaign in South America?

Some Background:

http://youtu.be/eN-t2zURVmY

Submitted by desmond on July 6, 2014 - 1:04pm.

No Response? I think everyone on this board is protesting down in Temecula trying to block the buses. After viewing the link it looks like we "Texans" will do what it takes to help solve this problem at least in the short term. Hospitable, kind and giving. Unlike those "Bus Blocking Californians" down in Temecula Valley, mean, selfish racists. Proud to be a "Texan". The Feds will be down there with the "Riot Squads" tomorrow in TV so you gun toting wackos better load up.......
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 6, 2014 - 3:01pm.

kind of embarrassing.

definitely not classy.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 6, 2014 - 6:33pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
kind of embarrassing.

definitely not classy.

Definitely not shinning city on the hill.

Those are your people in the Temecula area. I don't know them.

Submitted by svelte on July 6, 2014 - 6:37pm.

I have a few theories on this, not sure which is correct.

First, it seems to me the press has not attributed this at all to Obama's move to not deport illegal immigrant children in the US. They are saying it is due to increased Central American violence. I have no idea which is true (maybe a combination?), but is seems too much of a coincidence that the policy change that happened just prior to the border surge had no effect.

Now, was this an unexpected consequence that Obama had not considered, or an ultra-sly attempt to start a confrontation to ensure Hispanics turn out en massed to vote Democratic in the 2014 elections?

I am leaning towards the ultra-sly theory myself. And the Murrieta protestors are playing right into his hands....right smack into Obama's plan...

Witness the other side that came out to counterprotest.

And I agree with scaredy. The original protesters showed enormous lack of class. Sometimes we forget that we are a nation of immigrants.

And before anyone stands on the "but they are illegal" dogma, well I would be more sympathetic to that argument if Boehner would let immigration reform come up for a vote. But by blocking reform, all goodwill I have for the "illegal" argument evaporates.

Submitted by paramount on July 6, 2014 - 10:40pm.

svelte wrote:

Now, was this an unexpected consequence that Obama had not considered, or an ultra-sly attempt to start a confrontation to ensure Hispanics turn out en massed to vote Democratic in the 2014 elections?

I am leaning towards the ultra-sly theory myself. And the Murrieta protestors are playing right into his hands....right smack into Obama's plan...

Witness the other side that came out to counterprotest.

And I agree with scaredy. The original protesters showed enormous lack of class. Sometimes we forget that we are a nation of immigrants.

And before anyone stands on the "but they are illegal" dogma, well I would be more sympathetic to that argument if Boehner would let immigration reform come up for a vote. But by blocking reform, all goodwill I have for the "illegal" argument evaporates.

I am leaning towards the ultra-sly theory as well. It could be that part of the plan was to incite race wars, and from what I can tell the plan seems to be working pretty well.

As far as being a nation of immigrants, to an extent that's true but I would guess that most in the US are not immigrants.

We are supposed to be a nation of borders and laws; unless of course those laws and borders stand in the way of political ambition.

Submitted by paramount on July 6, 2014 - 10:51pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:

Definitely not shinning city on the hill.

Those are your people in the Temecula area. I don't know them.

I would expect this type of idiotic comment from a phony San Diego snob. 1st of all the protest was in Murrieta, not Temecula/area.

I have to admit I took a certain pleasure in witnessing the eviction of the self-entitled San Diego idiots who were briefly my neighbors.

They were run out of Temecula on a rail, back to San Diego where they belong.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 6, 2014 - 11:17pm.

i gotta agree with paramount here. people from temecula tend yto view people from murrieta as lower class than people from temecula. it's hotter there. newer. and just lower class all around. if think most people would beleive if you needed to gather an angry mob on short notice, you'd do better in murrieta than etemecula.

i don't think temecula runs anyone out of it on a rail however. we don't actaully have a rail to run upon. also, basically, we are open to all comers. even people from murrieta aare free to migrate down a few miles...

Submitted by deadzone on July 7, 2014 - 12:01am.

svelte wrote:
.
And before anyone stands on the "but they are illegal" dogma, well I would be more sympathetic to that argument if Boehner would let immigration reform come up for a vote. But by blocking reform, all goodwill I have for the "illegal" argument evaporates.

What specific "reform" are you guys expecting? In reality, that is just a euphonism for amnesty of one form or another.

Ideally, reform would consist of federally mandated use of E-verify (or come up with a better system) but I don't here anybody talking about that lately.

Submitted by CA renter on July 7, 2014 - 1:47am.

desmond wrote:
No Response?

Where's that "taboo" thread? ;)

Submitted by Coronita on July 7, 2014 - 5:51am.

Well, according to CNN, using the "i-word" (illegal) is un-american... It's as bad as using the n-word...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/04/opinion/ko...

I think we went from the term "illegal aliens" to "illegal immigrants" to be more PC....But I suppose "illegal" is now un-PC...

We'll probably change the term to something like "spontaneous extended stay visitors"....

I guess it's just CNN trying to show its (fake) "racial sensitivity" .....Typical CNN...con news network...

Submitted by Coronita on July 7, 2014 - 5:49am.

Meh... I've given up on the national issues....Looking at things, the only difference is what special interest group/lobbying group either our government officials are pandering to..

The only thing I care about are the local elections and state elections.Things like SCA-5...

Submitted by Hobie on July 7, 2014 - 6:30am.

I dunno. Call them whatever you want, but I think the Murrietta situation quite accurately represents the feeling of the vast majority of legal immigrants and natural born Americans. Be nice if more of those folks voted.

It's like a stranger walking in your front door sitting down to dinner curling up on your couch and saying, "whats for breakfast?" Just because they are here doesn't make it right. or legal, ahem.

Submitted by desmond on July 7, 2014 - 7:07am.

Hobie wrote:
I dunno. Call them whatever you want, but I think the Murrietta situation quite accurately represents the feeling of the vast majority of legal immigrants and natural born Americans. Be nice if more of those folks voted.

It's like a stranger walking in your front door sitting down to dinner curling up on your couch and saying, "whats for breakfast?" Just because they are here doesn't make it right. or legal, ahem.

Yes that would suck. What would you do if it was a child sitting out on your lawn that needs water, food and clothing? I am actually split on this issue. Unless we have a border that works, meaning knowing who comes in and out, not much will change.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 7, 2014 - 7:22am.

one things for sure; we know Hobby Lobby would whip out their Bible and help him...

Genesis 15:13

And He said to Abram, Know for a certainty that your seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Genesis 23:4

I am a stranger and a sojourner with you; give me possession of a burying place with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.

Exodus 2:22

And she bore him a son, and he called his name Gershom; for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.

Leviticus 19:33

And if a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not wrong him.

Psalms 119:19

I am a stranger on earth; do not hide your commandments from me.

Your Bible Navigator
1. See how the word "stranger" is used in each verse.
2. What makes people "strange"?
3. Can one feel strange in familiar surroundings? Bring one of the verses as a proof text for your answer.
4. What makes you feel strange?

In the Talmud, they understand "stranger" to mean the same as "newcomer" i.e. someone who has chosen to join the community. In other words, someone who feels strange, but wishes to belong.

Our Rabbis taught: He who wounds the feelings of a proselyte transgresses three negative commandments, and he who oppresses him transgresses two commandments. How does wounding their feelings differ from oppressing them?

We make this distinction because three separate negative commandments are stated: You shall not wrong a stranger [i.e., a proselyte] (Exodus 23:9) And if a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not wrong him (Leviticus 19:33), and you shall not therefore wrong each his fellow man (Leviticus 25:17) -- a proselyte being included in 'fellow man.'

But for 'oppression' there are also three commandments which prohibit this," and you shall not oppress him" (Exodus 22:20), Also "You shall not oppress a stranger," (Exodus 23:9) and "[If you lend money to any of my people whom are of your poor,] you shall not take interest from him" (Exodus 22:24). which includes a proselyte! — So, say instead, that both wounding feelings and oppressing are forbidden by three commandments.

It has been taught: R. Eliezer the Great said: Why did the Torah warn against [the wronging of] a proselyte in thirty-six, or as others say, in forty-six, places? Because he may revert back to his evil ways. What is the meaning of the verse, You shall neither wrong a stranger, nor oppress him; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt? It has been taught: R. Nathan said: Do not taunt your neighbor with the blemish you yourself have. And thus the proverb runs: If there is a case of hanging in a man's family record, say not to him, 'Hang this fish up for me.'

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 7, 2014 - 7:35am.

Hobie wrote:
I dunno. Call them whatever you want, but I think the Murrietta situation quite accurately represents the feeling of the vast majority of legal immigrants and natural born Americans. Be nice if more of those folks voted.

It's like a stranger walking in your front door sitting down to dinner curling up on your couch and saying, "whats for breakfast?" Just because they are here doesn't make it right. or legal, ahem.

what would Jesus do...

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on July 7, 2014 - 9:00am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Hobie wrote:
I dunno. Call them whatever you want, but I think the Murrietta situation quite accurately represents the feeling of the vast majority of legal immigrants and natural born Americans. Be nice if more of those folks voted.

It's like a stranger walking in your front door sitting down to dinner curling up on your couch and saying, "whats for breakfast?" Just because they are here doesn't make it right. or legal, ahem.

what would Jesus do...

Loaves and fishes, baby!

Submitted by scaredyclassic on July 7, 2014 - 9:03am.

He'd rattle the bus and yell at kids?

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 7, 2014 - 9:15am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
it's hotter there. newer. and just lower class all around. if think most people would beleive if you needed to gather an angry mob on short notice, you'd do better in murrieta than etemecula.

Sounds oddly familiar.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on July 7, 2014 - 9:20am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
He'd rattle the bus and yell at kids?

Are there video links of the demonstration? I've haven't really followed the story, except a little on national news.

Submitted by paramount on July 7, 2014 - 9:31am.

Protester shouting matches in Murrieta videos (they play in sequence):

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/nati...

Submitted by Coronita on July 7, 2014 - 10:07am.

I was talking to my colleague, who is a double degreed masters EE/CS on H1-B, really smart guy and has a lot of great ideas that we would like to do on his own... He's still waiting for his greencard (been about 3-4 years)...Unfortunately, the company he's working for is not doing so well, and if he get's laidoff, it really messes up his visa status.. (at least he doesn't have to start over, like it use to be)...

I asked him what we was going to do if he gets laidoff... Jokingly he said..."Well, maybe I can leave the country, and come back through the south border as a refugee. Afterall, I might be able to get my greencard faster going that route than this route as a priority 2 H1-B high skill tech worker...".. Yes, it was tongue and cheek. But it was kinda funny...Sad...but funny....

Submitted by Hobie on July 7, 2014 - 9:52am.

what would Jesus do...

Intent my friend, intent. Hey, isn't What would Jesus do? now trademarked. Hmm So much blending of concepts..

Submitted by Doofrat on July 7, 2014 - 10:35am.

At a company I used to work for, there was an Indian DBA I worked with remotely who was on the East Coast. One time when I tried to contact him, he got back to me saying his schedule was different as he was now in Australia. Turns out there was some issue with his Visa, but no worries, apparently the company had an office in Australia where they would send these guys and Australia was happy to take them.

My Aunt and Uncle had a Russian student living with them. When she finished college, her visa expired and she had to go back to Russia. She couldn't get back in the US on a work permit for years. She went through years and years of hassle to get back in.

But for some reason, we let in a bunch of illegal and undeucated people in through the Southern border with no issues?

Submitted by Coronita on July 7, 2014 - 11:23am.

Unrelated. What I find really interesting is some of the H1-B workers here complain about US companies outsourcing work back to India and China....

I wonder if at times this country really cares about growing more educated people in this country, or would it rather prefer keeping educated people to a few and growing an uneducated majority class.

Some of the immigration laws are just pretty wacked.

Submitted by carlsbadworker on July 7, 2014 - 11:59am.

flu wrote:
Well, according to CNN, using the "i-word" (illegal) is un-american... It's as bad as using the n-word...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/04/opinion/ko...

I think we went from the term "illegal aliens" to "illegal immigrants" to be more PC....But I suppose "illegal" is now un-PC...

We'll probably change the term to something like "spontaneous extended stay visitors"....

I guess it's just CNN trying to show its (fake) "racial sensitivity" .....Typical CNN...con news network...

No. The political correct word now is "undocumented immigrant". Pretty soon, murder is undocumented death and rape is undocumented sex...once they are all legalized, then all is well.

Submitted by UCGal on July 7, 2014 - 12:19pm.

Back to the Murrietta protests.

Correct me where I'm wrong:

- The buses being blocked were ICE buses with undocumented folks who'd been CAUGHT. The buses were taking them from one Homeland Security facility that was overcrowded, to a less crowded facility.

- The ICE folks weren't going to just release these detainees. They were going to process them, schedule hearing dates, and follow the legal due process procedures.

- After processing at Murrietta they were going to be shipped off to other ICE facilities, and if there were sponsors available, some of these folks *might* be able to be released to custody of the sponsors (in other locations) to await their deportation hearing.

Did I get this right? This is what I've been reading.

Why are folks who are theoretically concerned about the "illegal" aspect of the border crossings now trying to circumvent the law and order process? Why aren't they supporting the detaining of these immigrants while their legal status us determined?

If the block enough buses - the ICE will be forced to release them onto the streets since they have no room for them in the facilities in Texas.

Seems like if you're for law an order, you should be allowing the Homeland Security folks to actually follow the laws and provide due process - even if that means housing detainees at the INS facility in Murrietta.

Submitted by livinincali on July 7, 2014 - 12:24pm.

flu wrote:
Unrelated. What I find really interesting is some of the H1-B workers here complain about US companies outsourcing work back to India and China....

I wonder if at times this country really cares about growing more educated people in this country, or would it rather prefer keeping educated people to a few and growing an uneducated majority class.

Some of the immigration laws are just pretty wacked.

It pretty much proves the point that immigration is about vote buying. Any rational person would require any immigrants to have skills and/or fit a profile of need before allowing them to come here.

It's always kind of funny to see the people arguing for a living wage also arguing for immigration reform (usually some form of amnesty). What do you think is going to happen when you increase the supply of low skilled labor in excess of the amount of jobs available for low skilled labor. Obviously the supply demand imbalance forces wages down. Then of course you try to fix that imbalance with minimum wage proposals but that doesn't change the fact that there are too many low skilled workers in this country already.

Hey I don't blame the illegal immigrants they're just trying to do what's best for them, but I have no problem with doing what's best for us and that is deporting them.

Submitted by livinincali on July 7, 2014 - 12:31pm.

UCGal wrote:
Back to the Murrietta protests.

Correct me where I'm wrong:

- The buses being blocked were ICE buses with undocumented folks who'd been CAUGHT. The buses were taking them from one Homeland Security facility that was overcrowded, to a less crowded facility.

- The ICE folks weren't going to just release these detainees. They were going to process them, schedule hearing dates, and follow the legal due process procedures.

- After processing at Murrietta they were going to be shipped off to other ICE facilities, and if there were sponsors available, some of these folks *might* be able to be released to custody of the sponsors (in other locations) to await their deportation hearing.

Did I get this right? This is what I've been reading.

Why are folks who are theoretically concerned about the "illegal" aspect of the border crossings now trying to circumvent the law and order process? Why aren't they supporting the detaining of these immigrants while their legal status us determined?

If the block enough buses - the ICE will be forced to release them onto the streets since they have no room for them in the facilities in Texas.

Seems like if you're for law an order, you should be allowing the Homeland Security folks to actually follow the laws and provide due process - even if that means housing detainees at the INS facility in Murrietta.

Yeah I would agree with that. What the protestors did doesn't exactly get them what they want. It probably hinders the process of deporting them more than it helps. The problem I have with the situation why don't we just streamline the deportation process. It's expensive to transport these illegal immigrants around. It's expensive to have to go through a long processing process and then go before the judge.

And the biggest issue I have with this situation is that right after the president decides to execute the DREAM act by executive order we got a huge influx of illegal immigrants. Whether the message got lost in translation or not, the Central American's have certainly taken it as an open invitation to illegally immigrant to America.

Submitted by deadzone on July 7, 2014 - 12:52pm.

Speaking of H1B, I'm not a big fan of that either. Does your colleage, for instance, provide some type of unique skill that no American citizen can provide? I doubt it. The H1B program is clearly a scam used by corporations to hire cheap technical labor.

Submitted by Coronita on July 7, 2014 - 1:51pm.

deadzone wrote:
Speaking of H1B, I'm not a big fan of that either. Does your colleage, for instance, provide some type of unique skill that no American citizen can provide? I doubt it. The H1B program is clearly a scam used by corporations to hire cheap technical labor.

It's a double edge sword. There are companies that do abuse the H1-B system. They tend to be bottom feeder seedy contracting/contractor chopshops, and frankly you probably don't want to be in a situation to work for those contracts....There was I remember one headhunter that was speaking to me because we needed a contractor for a short duration, and I remember the guy had a company and would "bench" H1-Bs without real work available... Gray area/borderline illegal (and no, we didn't bother with chopshops like that)...

But there are also plenty of of jobs that college grads without h1-b's either don't want to do or aren't qualify to do. For example, there weren't too many candidates out of college that were interested in doing embedded O/S mobile development.. Most of the college grads wanted to go work for facebook, linkedin, and to a lesser extend apple and google...

And let's face it...Also else being equal, a tech company would rather take a younger person than take and older person and retrain them....It's how it is..The argument about "experience" in tech only works so far. You don't get "life credits" just for having a lot of miles on the odometer. It's "relevant experience" that counts...And especially with tech, a lot of skills either becomes outdated or there ends up being an influx of too much supply of a skill very quickly. So the burden of "proving" one's net worth ends up being oneself in staying current and staying at the top of the game....

Regardless, the H1-B "threat" is not nearly as big a "threat" as a company deciding to move an entire operations offshore, especially as more and more business comes out of Asia versus the U.S....Also, when a US companies start competing strictly based on cost, you know the end is near because a US company will never win based on cost alone... I'll use my own employer for example.One of our competitors is based in Taiwan. They can easily fly people from Taiwan to China for cheap, where the bulk of the new business is coming from...How many US employees want to fly 15+hours every 2 weeks to hang out with customers in China versus if you had an office of employees in Banglore 5 hours away? How much in operating expenses between the two...

I speak, as I'm turning 40, and acknowledge I'm one of those people that will have a target on my back sooner versus later... It's not great, but it is what it is. Because when you get older, you have to at some point decide whether you have the time, energy, desire to keep up.. Or if you come to the point in which you think, enough is enough, and decide to do something else....(And yes, that thought process tends to happen a lot more for me these days :))

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