Orderly dying

User Forum Topic
Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 3, 2021 - 11:52pm

So last year there were around 3.1 million total deaths. Covid provided a slight up blip but really, still a small percentage. Total deaths have been on the rise anyway, cause theres so damn many of us, and we are old.

Total births, 3.8 million.

So humans are still winning! Yay, homo sapiens.

Its terrible when people die, or is it? Let me rephrase, its terrible for us, the living, when someone we love dies...

but its more the idea of disorderly death--no hospital beds, seemingly avoidable cause, barred from family while sick that is for me more upsetting.

When you look at the numbers, from a cold, distant viewpoint, the numbers are round the same ballpark, and trending toward more more more of us. Yeah some of those babes will die, but women just keep having em!

Humans, amirite?

Maybe i did get a little overfreaked out by covid.

As they say, everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.

Submitted by ucodegen on March 4, 2021 - 12:52am.

I always felt the drama on COVID-19 was a bit overdone. It is a disease to be concerned about, but it is no small-pox, black-death nor 'Spanish' flu. Because the population is larger - deaths will be correspondingly higher. Because the population now lives closer together - means any disease can spread faster.

As I am getting older.. grayer.. I realize that the quality of life is really important, don't stress out on the small stuff. I wish to live as health, active and rational as possible... then hope to pass quickly.

My theory on death is that the result is not 'Heaven'.. but that we are currently in what could be called 'Purgatory'; where we have to get our individual acts together. If we die, we start over until the lessons are learned by our souls... then it is??(Different plane of existence?) If we really screw up, we may come back as another 'lessor' life form - ie. Rat? Mouse? Amoeba and have to work back up the chain. I find the concept that the best of the end of life is sitting around strumming a harp as being incredibly boring.

Submitted by spdrun on March 4, 2021 - 8:49am.

COVID has probably killed 600,000 people in the US.

Spanish Flu killed about 675,000. With population in 1918 being 1/3 of what it is today, this would be equivalent to 2 million.

This being said, say half of those people could have been saved using modern healthcare and antibiotics -- maybe Spanish Flu would have only killed a million people with modern medicine.

Also, people were MORE crowded in 1918. Cities were actually more densely populated ... Manhattan had a population 1.5x that of its present population, even though there were fewer housing units (many apartment buildings were built in the 20s and 30s!). We were coming off a war, so soldiers were coming home packed into troop ships. There wasn't as much ability to "work from home."

So despite lack of social distancing and lack of modern medicine, Spanish Flu only killed 3x the number of people as COVID did today. And COVID is far from done with us. If COVID had emerged in 1918, I suspect it would have been as bad (or worse) than the Spanish Flu.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 9:40am.

ucodegen wrote:
I always felt the drama on COVID-19 was a bit overdone. It is a disease to be concerned about, but it is no small-pox, black-death nor 'Spanish' flu. Because the population is larger - deaths will be correspondingly higher. Because the population now lives closer together - means any disease can spread faster.

As I am getting older.. grayer.. I realize that the quality of life is really important, don't stress out on the small stuff. I wish to live as health, active and rational as possible... then hope to pass quickly.

My theory on death is that the result is not 'Heaven'.. but that we are currently in what could be called 'Purgatory'; where we have to get our individual acts together. If we die, we start over until the lessons are learned by our souls... then it is??(Different plane of existence?) If we really screw up, we may come back as another 'lessor' life form - ie. Rat? Mouse? Amoeba and have to work back up the chain. I find the concept that the best of the end of life is sitting around strumming a harp as being incredibly boring.

The creator is a sadistic teacher/taskmaster who likes to watch us flail about in various conditions and judge us, according to unclear standards, rewarding winners and squashing losers.

Maybe trump is the Lord. Or capitalism? Or our superego. Or all 3? The holy trinity.

It could be just as ive expected all along ...the universe is a giant rat race, but the rat race is inside us.

And why are there no professional rat races being run? So much cheaper to keep than ponies.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 9:23am.

spdrun wrote:
COVID has probably killed 600,000 people in the US.

Spanish Flu killed about 675,000. With population in 1918 being 1/3 of what it is today, this would be equivalent to 2 million.

This being said, say half of those people could have been saved using modern healthcare and antibiotics -- maybe Spanish Flu would have only killed a million people with modern medicine.

Also, people were MORE crowded in 1918. Cities were actually more densely populated ... Manhattan had a population 1.5x that of its present population, even though there were fewer housing units (many apartment buildings were built in the 20s and 30s!). We were coming off a war, so soldiers were coming home packed into troop ships. There wasn't as much ability to "work from home."

So despite lack of social distancing and lack of modern medicine, Spanish Flu only killed 3x the number of people as COVID did today. And COVID is far from done with us. If COVID had emerged in 1918, I suspect it would have been as bad (or worse) than the Spanish Flu.

Fair enough. But its still not a lot percentage wise. Just ...disorderly.

And its not the black death.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 4, 2021 - 9:44am.

I can't believe people are still having these conversations. The death toll was only what it was because of the "drama" and it being "overdone". Such short memories have you of pandemics and housing bubbles

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 11:27am.

Right. We couldve done better...agreed. probably couldve kept deaths down from 500k to 100k

But in the scheme of things, the human portfolio if you will, isnt it a small loss? Im speaking from a nonhumancentric viewpoint. Kind of a drop in the bucket? if you took that percentage loss on a specific holding in your financial portfolio, it would be irrelevant. and nothing compared to gains in other areas: babies! new drugs and surgeries! etc.

or If we heard say, there were a 10 perce. Increase on total lost forest, or a 10 perc species extinction, wed take it in stride. no one would be like, WE MUST ACT! we'd be like, meh. like we are right this minute. meh.
give me money. ecosystem trouble? ho-hum.

But we lose our minds if an extra less than 1/10 of 1 perc of us die? I'm not saying that we should've stayed open to benefit the economy. quite the opposite.

just that our deaths are kind of not that big a deal, really, so long as they happen in an orderly, somewhat predictable manner , and aren't caused by other's carelessness or disregard for us, such that we are enraged by a particular localized injustice, in which case we get really really worked up. Look, if I knew I was gonna have a heart attack tonight for sure and die tonight, i'd still be outraged if some drunk driver KIlled me this afternoon.

I'd be like, that rude, non-mask wearing, bad driving moron!

And although i'm arguing that human life is not worth all that much in aggregate, Im not talking about the individual lives, which are obviously infinitely precious to each of us, and precious to our loved ones, in some cases.

Im talking the global perspective, as seen froma distance, not alpha centauri distant, maybe just from the Moon, where our lives seem to be not very valuable.

Humans gonna human. Dumber than rocks. Not gonna be careful.

look at it this way; an extra 500,000 iraqis died in the iraq war. but really, who cares? Do we worry about it, or even remotely feel anything? barely. because it's a drop in the bucket, right? and who are they anyway? nobody. why does their country end with a Q? don't they know that q's must be followed by u's? barbarians!

covid seems worse because it highlights how much we truly dont give a shit about each other in our own society, financially, physically, etc.

. on the other hand, if we weren't such a bunch of pleasure and sensation seeking, self-centered, restless, risk taking jerks. perhaps the economy as we know it would come to a standstill.

all that we'd sell would be a bowl and aspoon, a meditation mat, and a blanket.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 12:09pm.

“Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives to them.”

― Epictetus

old bastard might be right.

Submitted by ucodegen on March 4, 2021 - 3:50pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:

The creator is a sadistic teacher/taskmaster who likes to watch us flail about in various conditions and judge us, according to unclear standards, rewarding winners and squashing losers.

Maybe trump is the Lord. Or capitalism? Or our superego. Or all 3? The holy trinity.

It could be just as ive expected all along ...the universe is a giant rat race, but the rat race is inside us.

And why are there no professional rat races being run? So much cheaper to keep than ponies.


Deteriorata comes to mind...

Submitted by ucodegen on March 4, 2021 - 4:09pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
I can't believe people are still having these conversations. The death toll was only what it was because of the "drama" and it being "overdone". Such short memories have you of pandemics and housing bubbles

There was a lot of incompetence to spread around here, which is quite likely part of the cause of the death toll. At the same time, the drama may have caused some people to disregard some of the precautions they should have taken. What I have been talking about is compared to the drama the media presented along the lines of 'Dirty Laundry', it was not as catastrophic as it was pumped up to be.

Drama without good facts is useless(I was not listening to the media - I was pulling down research papers to find out what was happening). Even officials were contradicting themselves on how bad it was at the beginning. China(CCP) and WHO were saying it was nothing far into the situation and they have 'revised the facts' to make it look like they warned people sooner than they actually did.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 4, 2021 - 4:11pm.

I think I might not be making my point. It was not as catastrophic BECAUSE it was pumped to be. People stayed home, businesses shut down, people wore masks and socially distanced. In the absence of that it would have been as catastrophic as it was pumped up to be. We dodged a much worse situation through the actions taken here and abroad.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 4:28pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
I think I might not be making my point. It was not as catastrophic BECAUSE it was pumped to be. People stayed home, businesses shut down, people wore masks and socially distanced. In the absence of that it would have been as catastrophic as it was pumped up to be. We dodged a much worse situation through the actions taken here and abroad.

I suppose. Although we did do pretty damn bad.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 4:28pm.

ucodegen wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:

The creator is a sadistic teacher/taskmaster who likes to watch us flail about in various conditions and judge us, according to unclear standards, rewarding winners and squashing losers.

Maybe trump is the Lord. Or capitalism? Or our superego. Or all 3? The holy trinity.

It could be just as ive expected all along ...the universe is a giant rat race, but the rat race is inside us.

And why are there no professional rat races being run? So much cheaper to keep than ponies.


Deteriorata comes to mind...

National lampoon had a strong early influence on me

Submitted by ucodegen on March 4, 2021 - 4:58pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
It was not as catastrophic BECAUSE it was pumped to be. People stayed home, businesses shut down, people wore masks and socially distanced. In the absence of that it would have been as catastrophic as it was pumped up to be. We dodged a much worse situation through the actions taken here and abroad.
I got your point, but I said the point is not quite as valid as you are trying to make it. The steps of staying home, social distancing were not necessarily hysteria, however "it would have been as catastrophic as it was pumped up to be" may not be as true.. remember Sweden. On top of this, the restrictions weren't always consistent. For example, Home Depot at restricted opening at so called 25% - the interpersonal spacing ended up being 100'... not 6, not 12 etc. The restrictions were applied somewhat capriciously.

As I said, hysteria without real facts make it sound like a chicken who said the sky was falling because a nut landed on its head.

Yes there were real facts. It was known towards the end of February 2020 that COVID-19 was airborne. Something that didn't come out until much later.

Another fact; whether you get a viral infection also greatly depends upon the duration of exposure and the 'strength' of exposure. Light exposure for short durations separated by time can actually immunize because the viral load is so light that first level defenses (like white blood cells) can take care of it. The body analyses the results and can use that to build up antibodies(which are specific to a type of infection).

Submitted by barnaby33 on March 4, 2021 - 5:12pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
I think I might not be making my point. It was not as catastrophic BECAUSE it was pumped to be. People stayed home, businesses shut down, people wore masks and socially distanced. In the absence of that it would have been as catastrophic as it was pumped up to be. We dodged a much worse situation through the actions taken here and abroad.

I am going to take the under on that one. Nobody knows what the death toll might have been that's wild speculation. You can however measure the damage done by the economic toll it took upon the living. COVID was and is inter generational warfare. I say that as someone who obeys the mask wearing/virtue signaling crowd.

This disease is not lethal enough not even by half to even put a small dent in our society. Mostly it killed and injured those with serious pre existing conditions and the elderly. There were and are measures we should take to keep it from roaring back, but saying that the death toll was kept low because of the measures we took is seriously lacking in rigor.
Josh

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 7:15pm.

Humans in the usa are kind of like the failing banks, propped up by modern medicine in spite of overwhelmingly bad health. Which is great. Provides a lot of employment. But we shouldnt expect such a frail structure to be bombproof

Ill be wearing masks way into the future, even when no ones around. I much prefer them to sunscreen. Great coverage with a hat and cotton scarf.

Submitted by ucodegen on March 4, 2021 - 8:15pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Ill be wearing masks way into the future, even when no ones around. I much prefer them to sunscreen. Great coverage with a hat and cotton scarf.
Oh, you must be that person I saw walking around in black, with a black hat pulled low over the eyes and red cotton scarf....☺ kind of a old western bad guy look; almost like Lee Van Cleef.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 4, 2021 - 8:42pm.

Kind of. My wife says its more of a homosexual vibe.

Submitted by ucodegen on March 4, 2021 - 9:02pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Kind of. My wife says its more of a homosexual vibe.

Humm... Lee Van Cleef doesn't image out very well as homosexual... too rough in the face and around the edges. Sounds more "Brokeback".

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 5, 2021 - 12:11pm.

More glee than brokeback. but i also buy my t shirts from tsptr.com, purveyors of vintage repro tshirts and goods from the 60s and 70s. i love them. where else can you get a "drop acid not bombs" shirt with the grateful dead logo on it in a true vintage slim cut made of portuguese cotton? also, they are nicely made.

Submitted by phaster on March 5, 2021 - 10:45pm.

spdrun wrote:
COVID has probably killed 600,000 people in the US.

Spanish Flu killed about 675,000. With population in 1918 being 1/3 of what it is today, this would be equivalent to 2 million.

This being said, say half of those people could have been saved using modern healthcare and antibiotics -- maybe Spanish Flu would have only killed a million people with modern medicine.

Also, people were MORE crowded in 1918. Cities were actually more densely populated ... Manhattan had a population 1.5x that of its present population, even though there were fewer housing units (many apartment buildings were built in the 20s and 30s!). We were coming off a war, so soldiers were coming home packed into troop ships. There wasn't as much ability to "work from home."

So despite lack of social distancing and lack of modern medicine, Spanish Flu only killed 3x the number of people as COVID did today. And COVID is far from done with us. If COVID had emerged in 1918, I suspect it would have been as bad (or worse) than the Spanish Flu.

one BIG difference is in 1918 a person could go from healthy to dead in 12 hours (watch the first minute or so of AMERICAN EXPERIENCE)

https://www.pbs.org/video/influenza-chap...

also something else to consider given the literature

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-rel...

my mom kinda started off in public health, and came to SD back in 1957 when there was another pandemic of sorts

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resourc...

anyway I'm not an MD but growing up was made aware of various aspects of public health and have a gut feeling that covid-19 in the grand scheme of things so far hasn't been as bad as the 1918 spanish flu

to listen to what actual exerts have to say on the topic, there is an interesting discussion/podcast of "virologists"

https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/

long story short from what I gather, the faster the whole world gets the existing vaccines the better,... this is because there is an ever present danger of virus mutations becoming more contagious/virulent

consider that in china (about a year ago) there was a paper that said the odds of someone becoming infected in a house hold where someone had covid-19 was about 20%,... I point this out because consider what happens if the virus mutation changes the odds of someone becoming infected in a house hold where someone had covid-19 mutation was about 40%

truth is we're not anywhere near the end of a long dark tunnel simply because most of the global population isn't going to get a vaccine by summer,... and the danger many are not considering is antibiotic-resistant strains of staph bacteria may be spreading between pigs raised in factory farms

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...

Submitted by spdrun on March 6, 2021 - 9:47am.

Wouldn't a shorter healthy --> very sick --> dead time actually reduce the time that a person is able to spread the disease? The problem with COVID is that people can be walking around for a week with mild flulike symptoms, spreading the virus.

As far as a vaccine ... even if mutations partially escape the vaccine, the vaccine may not prevent spread, but it should still reduce the severity of illness. If you can keep the 20% most vulnerable from landing in hospital, that's 90% of the battle right there.

Submitted by phaster on March 6, 2021 - 12:05pm.

^^^

a highly deadly virus infection like ebola is a good thing in that the disease burns out faster than it is spread

thing is w/ covid 19 thus far it has targeted mostly older weaker people

looking at the literature you'll see the spanish flu of 1918,...

Quote:

Mortality was high in people younger than 5 years old, 20-40 years old, and 65 years and older. The high mortality in healthy people, including those in the 20-40 year age group, was a unique feature of this pandemic.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resourc...

the danger of letting down our guard and going back to "life as normal" is the covid19 virus might mutate into something that has a high mortality rate in normally healthy people

a further complication is as I pointed out back in 1918 (Bacterial Pneumonia Caused Most Deaths)

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-rel...

as a kid my mom drilled into me viruses cause the common cold AND antibiotics should not be taken for any viral infection including a cold, a cough, or the flu because it has no beneficial effect (actually the danger is antibiotics causes bacteria to become drug resistant)

basically what medical experts are concerned about is,... predicting exactly how the covid19 virus acts is difficult/impossible to tell,... so the prudent thing to do even w/ some of the US and first world population starting to vaccinated is for people to keep socially distanced,... this is because there is a very real danger of a secondary bacteria pneumonia effect which might make what we have all experienced thus far pretty tame

truth is (for the most part),...

scaredyclassic wrote:
Humans in the usa are kind of like the failing banks, propped up by modern medicine

Submitted by spdrun on March 7, 2021 - 2:22pm.

COVID is likely not going away, just like OC43 (likely jumped species around 1890, aka the "Russian flu") didn't go away. Our bodies (those that survived) just learned to live with it. At this point, kids are exposed to OC43 early on, get a cold, and develop an immunity that protects them as more vulnerable adults. We can't socially distance forever and imprison people behind screens forever. We're not psychologically designed to "socially distance" -- we're social animals.

And guess what? Such mutations can happen with ANY virus. Even common-cold viruses can mutate to be lethal. The best we can do is vaccinate the vulnerable, get back to normal, and hope for the best:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mutant-form...

What's the alternative. Alter our entire society to interact in person less and subject people to psychological trauma and suffering due to loneliness and skin hunger?

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