middle school logic

User Forum Topic
Submitted by outtamojo on October 18, 2015 - 1:16pm

Ran into one of my son's schoolmates and his Dad at the local Costco. The Dad introduces himself says my son called his son a lil b@tch and said some things about his mom.
I was shocked- I turn to my son : is this true, you said these things?
son: uh, yeah....we were just kidding around.
Me: no more kidding around from now on, apologize.
So son apologizes to other kid, kid just says "oh its ok". He apologizes to other Dad also.
Other Dad is still livid: "I was this close to telling my son to get physical, I'm from blah blah blah and we handle our business...
Me: let me give you my cell#, if this continues, give me a call. We exchange numbers and then the other Dad just stalks off.
When we're alone I ask my son, so why'd you call him a little b@tch?
Son: he was wandering around at lunch so I said "come here you little b@tch" so he would sit next to us. We were on the Track team together last year.
Me: did you say some things about his mother? Why?
Son: At lunch we do yo mama jokes and talk smack to
each other with my friends and he comes and sits next to us and just laughs. He can't just sit there and laugh at us, other guys will get mad at him so I made some jokes about his mom too.
Me: so was he a good enough friend that you could talk that way to him?
Son: I thought he was, I was just trying to make him feel part of the group cause he comes and sits with us all the time.
Me: did he ever ask you to stop with the jokes? you know sometimes when kids laugh out loud they could be hurting on the inside?
Son: no he never said anything.
Me: Do you approach him or does he approach you?
Son: he usually approaches me, he asks me stuff about schoolwork in class sometimes.
I don't think my son is a bully or am I in denial? I see the kids from the lower grades approach him all the time and they kid with him so I was shocked that anyone would have a problem with my son. Should he just stay away from the other kid from now on or should he keep engaging him sans the joking around?

Submitted by Coronita on October 18, 2015 - 1:49pm.

You're son probably isn't a bully, but it doesn't sound like the other kid is ok with receiving these jokes either. I guess my initial thought was if this other kid was fine with the horseplay, why isn't he dishing it out himself, and why would talk to his dad about it? I mean, @ junior high, you are smart enough to figure out what is considered PC and what isn't. So if this was really just horsing around, the last thing I would want is to share it with my parents. It would be like hearing a funny, yet crude sex joke in middle school, and then going home and sharing it with your parents. Ewe...

That said, it would probably be in your son's best interest to lay off the "little bitch" and the "yo mama" jokes at school. Eventually, it's bound to be overheard his female peers, and then he'll be in deep shit with the school's administrators.

Submitted by no_such_reality on October 18, 2015 - 2:17pm.

thats what is great about school kids, you never know when you're going to end up dealing with the other parents unresolved sh*t.

That said, flu has it right this all goes very badly for the boys when a female instructor blunders into it.

While your at it, better double check make sure he isn't dropping the "n" word, "c" word or any other names the music "stars" like to bandy about.

Submitted by NotCranky on October 18, 2015 - 2:20pm.

I wouldn't want my kids to hang out as an equal with kids who think that is a fine way to talk. Clearly it's the "logic" of his peers that it's cool. Your son is probably trying to measure up to this little cliques lousy idea of etiquette.

I tell my kids that they can be around anyone in the right measure, but don't take on their ways. Like a track team it's inevitable that some of your team members are going to act like jerks often, so you aren't necessarily going to isolate , but you don't have to jump into the stupidity with both feet either. Stand your ground.

Sounds like your son is experimenting, so he is kind in one set of circumstances, good, and rude or extremely rude in another, tell him to be better than that.

Submitted by zk on October 18, 2015 - 2:21pm.

It's very hard to say.

Virtually everybody, when they recount an incident, tell their side of the story.That's not to cast aspersions on your son's honesty, that's just the way people are.

If your son's story exactly matches the truth, he seems fine to me.

In some cases, you really don't want/need to seek out the other side of the story. This seems to me like one of those times. Mainly because it would escalate what should maybe just be let go. But I only know what I read in your post, so I don't really know.

Submitted by zk on October 18, 2015 - 2:23pm.

Blogstar wrote:
I wouldn't want my kids to hang out as an equal with kids who think that is a fine way to talk. Clearly it's the "logic" of his peers that it's cool. Your son is probably trying to measure up to this little cliques lousy idea of etiquette.

I tell my kids that they can be around anyone in the right measure, but don't take on their ways. Like a track team it's inevitable that some of your team members are going to act like jerks often, so you aren't necessarily going to isolate , but you don't have to jump into the stupidity with both feet either. Stand your ground.

Sounds like your son is experimenting, so he is kind in one set of circumstances, good, and rude or extremely rude in another, tell him to be better than that.

+1

Submitted by zk on October 18, 2015 - 2:23pm.

dup

Submitted by outtamojo on October 18, 2015 - 2:59pm.

no_such_reality wrote:
thats what is great about school kids, you never know when you're going to end up dealing with the other parents unresolved sh*t.

That said, flu has it right this all goes very badly for the boys when a female instructor blunders into it.

While your at it, better double check make sure he isn't dropping the "n" word, "c" word or any other names the music "stars" like to bandy about.

He's used every one of those words and yes it's been a struggle getting him to tone things down. I think deep down he is still the nerdy kid others use to push around and make fun of because of his Asian features and so he puts up that front he puts up.

Submitted by outtamojo on October 18, 2015 - 3:21pm.

flu wrote:
You're son probably isn't a bully, but it doesn't sound like the other kid is ok with receiving these jokes either. I guess my initial thought was if this other kid was fine with the horseplay, why isn't he dishing it out himself, and why would talk to his dad about it? I mean, @ junior high, you are smart enough to figure out what is considered PC and what isn't. So if this was really just horsing around, the last thing I would want is to share it with my parents. It would be like hearing a funny, yet crude sex joke in middle school, and then going home and sharing it with your parents. Ewe...

That said, it would probably be in your son's best interest to lay off the "little bitch" and the "yo mama" jokes at school. Eventually, it's bound to be overheard his female peers, and then he'll be in deep shit with the school's administrators.

Yeah, I told him if he keeps this up and it gets to an administrator it could mean the end of his basketball career there.
As for the other kid, son says he kept coming back and trying to join their group; glutton for punishment or clueless? I mean why keep coming back to his group, there must be plenty of other better, more PC cliques or church group to hang with right?
I think I'll tell my son to just say hi and bye and stay away from that kid for his own protection - my son has always been edgy and South-Park and I can't totally trust him to resist off color behavior that may reach the wrong ears.

Submitted by flyer on October 18, 2015 - 4:33pm.

"I wouldn't want my kids to hang out as an equal with kids who think that is a fine way to talk. Clearly it's the "logic" of his peers that it's cool. Your son is probably trying to measure up to this little cliques lousy idea of etiquette."

Although our kids are now grown, I completely agree with this.

Because of peer pressure, the OP presents a difficult situation. Often people say "They'll grow out of it." Sometimes that is true, sometimes it's not. We've seen kids with these type of attitudes grow into adults no one (including employers) want to be around because of their attitude problems later in life, so it can be a real concern.

As we've seen with our kids and their peers, eventually, the realities of life will come into play, and lessons will be learned all around.

Submitted by Coronita on October 18, 2015 - 6:02pm.

outtamojo wrote:
flu wrote:
You're son probably isn't a bully, but it doesn't sound like the other kid is ok with receiving these jokes either. I guess my initial thought was if this other kid was fine with the horseplay, why isn't he dishing it out himself, and why would talk to his dad about it? I mean, @ junior high, you are smart enough to figure out what is considered PC and what isn't. So if this was really just horsing around, the last thing I would want is to share it with my parents. It would be like hearing a funny, yet crude sex joke in middle school, and then going home and sharing it with your parents. Ewe...

That said, it would probably be in your son's best interest to lay off the "little bitch" and the "yo mama" jokes at school. Eventually, it's bound to be overheard his female peers, and then he'll be in deep shit with the school's administrators.

Yeah, I told him if he keeps this up and it gets to an administrator it could mean the end of his basketball career there.
As for the other kid, son says he kept coming back and trying to join their group; glutton for punishment or clueless? I mean why keep coming back to his group, there must be plenty of other better, more PC cliques or church group to hang with right?
I think I'll tell my son to just say hi and bye and stay away from that kid for his own protection - my son has always been edgy and South-Park and I can't totally trust him to resist off color behavior that may reach the wrong ears.

The problem with social media is that once someone takes a gopro and films someone do some uncanny behavior, it will stick with that person indefinitely.Also, in the ultra-PC environment we are currently in, the backlash is enormous. There's plenty of examples of it that has happened. I'd suggest perhaps you might show some of those to your son as an example. I recall there was two guys at a tech conference that was making stupid sexual jokes privately. Apparently, some woman sitting nearby got all offended by it. But rather than confront the two guys, she took a picture of it, it and put it on social media, I guess as a mean of social shaming. And the backlash was enormous. First the two guys (who were just geeks making stupid jokes were both married) we subsequently fired. The woman, also fired from her job for eavesdropping on a private conversation and posting something supposedly private in social media (more likely because some hacker group broke into her employer's system and threatened to publicly post her employer's client list if she wasn't fired).

http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongl...

As far as a sense of humor. Well, there's nothing wrong with being a class clown. You just got to do it in a way that doesn't piss off 1/2 the population, especially considering whe he's in 8th grade, he's going to be interested in that 1/2 of the population.

Meanwhile, tell him to go work and bulk up if he gets pushed around. Chicks will dig it once he gets into high school if he's a buff jock. Take him to the gym yourself if you have to. I wish I learned that.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 18, 2015 - 6:05pm.

Yo mama jokes are intended to be traded and certainly aren't insults.

Come here you little bitch, seems affectionate, if it doesn't immediately lead to violence and normal interaction follows.

If your son is indeed telling the truth then I think the kid was acting like a little bitch by telling his dad.

Submitted by NotCranky on October 18, 2015 - 6:17pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Yo mama jokes are intended to be traded and certainly aren't insults.

Come here you little bitch, seems affectionate, if it doesn't immediately lead to violence and normal interaction follows.

If your son is indeed telling the truth then I think the kid was acting like a little bitch by telling his dad.

Since you are going to go there, I always thought a male calling another male is lil bitch was sort of homo-erotic, not that there is anything wrong with that, but if the affection that you are talking about is missing, maybe it's begging some S&M.

Submitted by outtamojo on October 18, 2015 - 6:27pm.

flu wrote:
outtamojo wrote:
flu wrote:
You're son probably isn't a bully, but it doesn't sound like the other kid is ok with receiving these jokes either. I guess my initial thought was if this other kid was fine with the horseplay, why isn't he dishing it out himself, and why would talk to his dad about it? I mean, @ junior high, you are smart enough to figure out what is considered PC and what isn't. So if this was really just horsing around, the last thing I would want is to share it with my parents. It would be like hearing a funny, yet crude sex joke in middle school, and then going home and sharing it with your parents. Ewe...

That said, it would probably be in your son's best interest to lay off the "little bitch" and the "yo mama" jokes at school. Eventually, it's bound to be overheard his female peers, and then he'll be in deep shit with the school's administrators.

Yeah, I told him if he keeps this up and it gets to an administrator it could mean the end of his basketball career there.
As for the other kid, son says he kept coming back and trying to join their group; glutton for punishment or clueless? I mean why keep coming back to his group, there must be plenty of other better, more PC cliques or church group to hang with right?
I think I'll tell my son to just say hi and bye and stay away from that kid for his own protection - my son has always been edgy and South-Park and I can't totally trust him to resist off color behavior that may reach the wrong ears.

The problem with social media is that once someone takes a gopro and films someone do some uncanny behavior, it will stick with that person indefinitely.Also, in the ultra-PC environment we are currently in, the backlash is enormous. There's plenty of examples of it that has happened. I'd suggest perhaps you might show some of those to your son as an example. I recall there was two guys at a tech conference that was making stupid sexual jokes privately. Apparently, some woman sitting nearby got all offended by it. But rather than confront the two guys, she took a picture of it, it and put it on social media, I guess as a mean of social shaming. And the backlash was enormous. First the two guys (who were just geeks making stupid jokes were both married) we subsequently fired. The woman, also fired from her job for eavesdropping on a private conversation and posting something supposedly private in social media (more likely because some hacker group broke into her employer's system and threatened to publicly post her employer's client list if she wasn't fired).

http://techcrunch.com/2013/03/21/a-dongl...

As far as a sense of humor. Well, there's nothing wrong with being a class clown. You just got to do it in a way that doesn't piss off 1/2 the population, especially considering whe he's in 8th grade, he's going to be interested in that 1/2 of the population.

Meanwhile, tell him to go work and bulk up if he gets pushed around. Chicks will dig it once he gets into high school if he's a buff jock. Take him to the gym yourself if you have to. I wish I learned that.

Maybe too much if me us rubbing off on my son. I've always maintained those smiling assassins like Adria whom most consider polite company are actually the meanest people around. We had a family discussion about inappropriate language and little sister says yeah you should be more like Landon and his sister, they NEVER say bad words. Son says, OK so you want me to go and shoot innocent animals for fun on weekends too? ( they are church-going hunters) I had no answer to that and had to end with "just don't be mean to people"...sigh.

Submitted by outtamojo on October 18, 2015 - 6:36pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Yo mama jokes are intended to be traded and certainly aren't insults.

Come here you little bitch, seems affectionate, if it doesn't immediately lead to violence and normal interaction follows.

If your son is indeed telling the truth then I think the kid was acting like a little bitch by telling his dad.

You and I must share a similar background :)

Still I told my son to cool it cause those kinds of words in the wrong hands will put him at the mercy of the establishment.

Submitted by ltsddd on October 18, 2015 - 6:53pm.

zk wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
I wouldn't want my kids to hang out as an equal with kids who think that is a fine way to talk. Clearly it's the "logic" of his peers that it's cool. Your son is probably trying to measure up to this little cliques lousy idea of etiquette.

I tell my kids that they can be around anyone in the right measure, but don't take on their ways. Like a track team it's inevitable that some of your team members are going to act like jerks often, so you aren't necessarily going to isolate , but you don't have to jump into the stupidity with both feet either. Stand your ground.

Sounds like your son is experimenting, so he is kind in one set of circumstances, good, and rude or extremely rude in another, tell him to be better than that.

+1

+1. It's a bit strange that the other kid (being a middle schooler) would tell that to his dad. That being said, I would not dismiss your kid's as being just horsing around. He either thinks he's cool or he's trying to assert himself in the group there. That could be a good thing or could lead to being a complete bully if left unchecked either by you or by his peers.

Submitted by ltsddd on October 18, 2015 - 7:09pm.

Is it true?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?

Submitted by NotCranky on October 18, 2015 - 8:55pm.

What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/...

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 18, 2015 - 9:54pm.

ltsdd wrote:
Is it true?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?

Mmmm.

This true kind nec. Test is not the speech pattern of normal males normally learn to relate to one another. Navigating actual social dynamics, not theoretical nice ones, is called learning about life.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 19, 2015 - 7:14am.

Blogstar wrote:
What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/freud-gets-serious-about-jokes.html

Yes. Seemingly fun inocuous interaction is of course very serious business.

Submitted by NotCranky on October 19, 2015 - 9:00am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/freud-gets-serious-about-jokes.html

Yes. Seemingly fun inocuous interaction is of course very serious business.


You have to watch out for the quiet ones too. Especially the quiet ones.

Submitted by Doofrat on October 19, 2015 - 9:39am.

Your son's story doesn't pass the smell test very well IMHO. So He's buddy buddy with this guy, they're horsing around like buddies do which includes:

1) Saying You little bitch (seriously we used to call each other this as a joke, no harm was meant and it was understood)
2) Saying yo-mama jokes to each other (We told off color jokes to each other when we were kids, didn't go telling the parents about it)

All this is good and fine, but for some reason the other kid tells his dad about him and his "buddies" good natured ribbing.

You see how this doesn't pass the smell test very well? Middle school guys don't go home and tell their dad about how their buddies horsed around that day, that makes no sense to me.

Submitted by ltsddd on October 19, 2015 - 10:16am.

scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/freud-gets-serious-about-jokes.html

Yes. Seemingly fun inocuous interaction is of course very serious business.

Innocuous according to whom? To the one that's dishing it (most definitely) or to the one at the receiving end (very unlikely). The jokes bothered the kid enough for him to tell his dad about it so you can't dismiss it as harmless. It did have a negative affect on the other kid and he could have reacted in a physical, violent way.

Submitted by bibsoconner on October 19, 2015 - 10:36am.

Feel free to pass this one on to your kid. He sounds like a normal teenager to me.

"Yo mama is so fat that she sat on her iPhone and turned it into an iPad!"

-Dave

P.S. My politically correct disclaimer: Only joking. I have no opinion as to whether or not your mothers are fat or not. I don't disrespect your mothers nor have I even met them. :)

Submitted by Doofrat on October 19, 2015 - 10:57am.

ltsdd wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/freud-gets-serious-about-jokes.html

Yes. Seemingly fun inocuous interaction is of course very serious business.

Innocuous according to whom? To the one that's dishing it (most definitely) or to the one at the receiving end (very unlikely). The jokes bothered the kid enough for him to tell his dad about it so you can't dismiss it as harmless. It did have a negative affect on the other kid and he could have reacted in a physical, violent way.

Exactly. My sister and I were in seventh grade and were being bullied by this eighth grader after being dropped off by the bus every day. This guy was of course a lot bigger than us and it kept escalating.

Middle school logic: I was going to start bringing one of the guns we had around the house with me for protection.

My sister finally told our dad about this guy and my dad had a talk with his dad and it ended that way instead.

You should probably nip this issue in the bud.

Submitted by outtamojo on October 19, 2015 - 10:58am.

doofrat wrote:
Your son's story doesn't pass the smell test very well IMHO. So He's buddy buddy with this guy, they're horsing around like buddies do which includes:

1) Saying You little bitch (seriously we used to call each other this as a joke, no harm was meant and it was understood)
2) Saying yo-mama jokes to each other (We told off color jokes to each other when we were kids, didn't go telling the parents about it)

All this is good and fine, but for some reason the other kid tells his dad about him and his "buddies" good natured ribbing.

You see how this doesn't pass the smell test very well? Middle school guys don't go home and tell their dad about how their buddies horsed around that day, that makes no sense to me.

Yeah, all my son talks about to me is what happened at practice- details about his social life we need picks and shovels to dig out. I have accepted that my son may not be telling the complete truth but I am confused too. When my son apologized to the other kid I was expecting to see or hear some residual anger from the other kid but all I saw was a wtf just happened look on his face and nothing incriminating at all in his voice, just a "oh it's ok."

Submitted by outtamojo on October 19, 2015 - 11:08am.

bibsoconner wrote:
Feel free to pass this one on to your kid. He sounds like a normal teenager to me.

"Yo mama is so fat that she sat on her iPhone and turned it into an iPad!"

-Dave

P.S. My politically correct disclaimer: Only joking. I have no opinion as to whether or not your mothers are fat or not. I don't disrespect your mothers nor have I even met them. :)

While I totally agree with the need for my son to speak more "appropriately, I don't expect him to say to a kid wandering around " Hi so-and-so, come sit with us over here, we'll make you feel warm and welcome. I love your jeans by the way, they make you look really really super."

Submitted by outtamojo on October 19, 2015 - 11:09am.

Thanks everyone for all your opinions - this has been eating me up all weekend.

Submitted by treehugger on October 19, 2015 - 12:27pm.

Raising kids is scary. We have a really tough time with the youngest (just turned 13), he has what I refer to as "mob mentality". He is a great kid, very polite, loving, and helpful. However, we have been noticing his behavior around his friends does not necessarily have those same qualities. He has one friend who seems to really bring out the worst, we don't let that boy come over to our house anymore (the other boy on the surface does not seem bad, but the behavior of ours around this other boy is intolerable). I check the texts and e-mails and saw a series of F-you type texts between the boys and did a reply all text informing them I was going to track down their parents and show them the texts if I ever saw it again. We had a talk with our son, but geez it is just non stop.

I think your boy is totally normal, does not sound like a bully or bullying behavior. From the sounds of the other dad, perhaps there are some deeper insecurities going on at home and he "told" his dad perhaps for a reaction/attention from his dad. A tough one for kids, the breach of trust amongst your peers goes deep; the fine line of what to tell your parents and what not to. We tell our kids we want them to tell us everything, but maybe as protective parents we don't always have the ability to take a step back and know when to let the kids work it out themselves.

Anyway, I feel for you on this one. Use it as a good opportunity to dialogue with your son.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 19, 2015 - 5:38pm.

ltsdd wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/freud-gets-serious-about-jokes.html

Yes. Seemingly fun inocuous interaction is of course very serious business.

Innocuous according to whom? To the one that's dishing it (most definitely) or to the one at the receiving end (very unlikely). The jokes bothered the kid enough for him to tell his dad about it so you can't dismiss it as harmless. It did have a negative affect on the other kid and he could have reacted in a physical, violent way.

Inocuous according to a reasonable middle school male hoping to be accepted by normal male peers so he can have normal relationships with other grown men

Not Inocuous to a little bitch.

More likely than not, son was trying extend friendship in a,peer group. Now the kid is likely to not get such an invitation from those kids at least.

Submitted by ltsddd on October 19, 2015 - 5:59pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
ltsdd wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
What would Freud say about Yo Mama Jokes.? I think he would say it's impossible that they are ever merely just for fun. What would Shakespeare say about them?

This is actually a serious question, Freud was very good on the topic of humor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor_in_F....

http://usesofhumor.blogspot.com/2008/10/freud-gets-serious-about-jokes.html

Yes. Seemingly fun inocuous interaction is of course very serious business.

Innocuous according to whom? To the one that's dishing it (most definitely) or to the one at the receiving end (very unlikely). The jokes bothered the kid enough for him to tell his dad about it so you can't dismiss it as harmless. It did have a negative affect on the other kid and he could have reacted in a physical, violent way.

Inocuous according to a reasonable middle school male hoping to be accepted by normal male peers so he can have normal relationships with other grown men

Not Inocuous to a little bitch.

More likely than not, son was trying extend friendship in a,peer group. Now the kid is likely to not get such an invitation from those kids at least.

You're talking about a middle schooler. Which could very well be a 10 or 11 year-old 6th grader, no? You think it's perfectly fine for kids at that age to speak and behave in such a way? You think it's better if the other kid took exception to the jokes and popped him in the face, instead?

It's usually harmless and fun...until someone got hurt or killed because of it.

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