John Legal vs Juan Illegal

User Forum Topic
Submitted by treehugger on June 3, 2016 - 4:42pm

saw this and thought the pigs could have some fun with it.

There are two families: "John Legal" and "Juan Illegal" . Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California.
John Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Juan Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number (SSN obtained fraudulently), and gets paid $10.00 cash per hour "under the table".
John Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; John Legal now has $31,231.00.
Juan Illegal: $10.00 per hour x 40 hours = $400.00 per week, or $20,800.00 per year. Juan Illegal pays no taxes. Juan Illegal now has $20,800.00.
John Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. John Legal now has $24,031.00.
Juan Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local clinics and emergency hospitals at a cost of $0.00 per year. Juan Illegal still has $20,800.00.
John Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare. John Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per year. John Legal now has $18,031.00.
Juan Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps, WIC and Welfare. Juan Illegal still has $20,800.00.
John Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. John Legal now has 9,631 .00.
Juan Illegal receives a $500.00 per month Federal Rent Subsidy. Juan Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Juan Illegal still has $20,800.00.
John Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for car insurance. Some of that is uninsured motorist insurance. John Legal now has $7,231.00.
Juan Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has $20,800.00.
John Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, etc..
Juan Illegal has to make his $20,800.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
On Jan 1, 2014, Obama Care fully kicks in. John Legal's employer lays off several of his helpers in order to bring the number of employees down enough to drop health insurance coverage. That means John Legal has to work harder and longer to compensate for the layoffs, plus John Legal has to purchase Obama Care which has an out of pocket expense of $850.00 for him and his family. That converts to $10,200 per year. John Legal is way in the hole.
Juan Illegal and his family receive Medicaid and receives Obama Care as a co-pay at no expense to him. Juan Illegal still has 20,800.00 minus what he sends back home to help his extended family until they can get into the US under automatic legal immigration granted when Juan Illegal becomes Legal.
John Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work.
Juan Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
John Legal's and Juan Illegal's children both attend the same elementary school. John Legal pays for his children's lunches, while Juan Illegal's children get a government sponsored lunch. Juan Illegal's children have an after school ESL program. John Legal's children go home.
Now, when they reach college age, John Legal's kids may not get into a State School and may not qualify for scholarships, grants or other tuition help, even though John Legal has been paying for State Schools through his taxes, while Juan Illegal's kids "go to the head of the class" because they are a minority.
John Legal and Juan Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but John paid for them and Juan did not pay.

Submitted by bearishgurl on June 3, 2016 - 7:01pm.

I've seen a post like this here on the forum before and it is more than a little bit erroneous. There are a lot of misconceptions floating around about who is eligible for what kind of subsidy. This post presumes that John and Juan are the sole support of their families and continue to be until their kids are of majority (their spouses don't bring in income or at least any income which is reported to the state).

Erroneous assumptions about John:

John's MAGI is low enough for him to get Obamacare for he and his spouse for as little as $1 month each and Medi-Cal for both of his kids. Medi-Cal covers the children's dental and the parents can buy a dental HMO from their exchange carrier for as little as ~$20 month each.

If John's income is the same or nearly the same when his kid(s) reach the 11th grade, his kids are likely eligible for a Pell Grant and even possibly a Cal Grant to attend University in CA IF they can get accepted.

John's kids are eligible for a .40 day school lunch (and a .40 breakfast, if offered) at his income level.

Most of the Johns residing in CA with $31-$40K net income per year for a family of 4 only have liability insurance on their (well-used) vehicles ... or intermittently lapsing insurance (put in place only for biennial vehicle registration purposes) or none at all (they license the vehicle in MX).

I'm not sure if John's family qualifies for a Section 8 voucher. If they do, they are borderline qualified and there is a lo-o-o-ong waiting list. In addition, not very many landlords accept them anymore.

Erroneous assumptions about Juan:

Juan's family is eligible for limited SNAP of $150-$200 mo (fka food stamps). Juan's family will have to join a food coop (and send an adult to work there 1-2 days month) to get more "free food" in CA. Juan's kids are eligible for free school lunches (and breakfasts, if offered). Juan will have to present two legitimate forms of "residency" to enroll his kids in public school in CA (utility bills, lease, etc) in his name. Cell phone bills are not allowed.

Juan's family is not eligible for cash aid in CA.

Juan's family is not eligible for subsidized rent in CA unless the principal worker in the family is documented (again, long waiting list).

Juan's family can and does show up in CA hospital emergency rooms where they are round up and questioned by "Medi-Cal specialists" as soon as they are able to hold a conversation. That specialist gets their "story" and the name/identity they are purportedly using (from a fake SS card?) and later indexes it with the SSA, possibly learning that the number was previously issued to an American decedent but by then Juan or his family member has been released and can't be found. Perhaps it's not such a good idea anymore for Juan and his family to visit hospital emergency rooms unless one of them is dying. Community Clinics exist in many CA counties to specifically serve this population.

Juan's kids can only avail themselves of the "Dream Act" (to attend University in CA) IF they have successfully graduated from a CA HS (not sure how many years must be in residency) with the "right" academic record and a GPA and SAT score high enough to be accepted. Juan's kids are welcome to enroll in a CA CC (space permitting).

*************************************************

Both John and Juan's kids qualify for an admission fee waiver to UC/CSU and SAT test fee waiver.

Both John and Juan may qualify for a utility (gas and elec) and landline phone discount IF they are legitimately renting a place in their name. John may qualify for ONE basic cellphone per family (no smartphone - <$20 month service) but he would need to choose between it or a family landline at ~$7 month. He can't have both at a discount.

The rest of the stuff is way out in left field.

Submitted by bewildering on June 3, 2016 - 9:25pm.

Most of OPs comment seems contrived and ignores the major issue:

The negative effect of illegal immigration on "john legals" salary. Why pay 25/hour for the same work as 10/hour. Low/semi skilled workers are people that lose out most to illegal immigration.

All the academic research I have seen indicates that illegal immigration greatly benefits the wealthy, but absolutely screws the poor, especially the working poor.

Submitted by no_such_reality on June 4, 2016 - 7:31am.

Quote:
John Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; John Legal now has $31,231.00.

This is a prime example of how broken our thinking is of our taxes. Unless John's spouse is a high earner and he'd be better off staying home with the kids, John didn't pay for sh*t.

John "middle class" Legal thinks he pays taxes. It's right there, 30% off the top. He doesn't.

If John has a W2 income of $52,000, is married and two kids, without another single thing, John and family will pay $588 in Federal income tax and $0 in California income tax. The child tax credit and California exemption wipes out his income taxes. Go do the ____ing math, the tax form takes all of 3 minutes at this level.

That leaves social security, which is 7.65% if W2 and 15.3% if self employed. Medicare is 1.45% of that, or 2.9% if self employed.

Since John's family only makes $52K, they qualify for a $304/month assistance on for medical insurance. Broken, pain in the butt, sure, but roughly half of their premium.

They're damn close to qualifying for SNAP too depending on their rent and housing expenses.

So John thinks he's paying for the roads, police, firefighters and everything else with his $588 per year in taxes while sending two kids to school at $9000+ per year each.

Submitted by bearishgurl on June 4, 2016 - 8:57am.

no_such_reality wrote:
Quote:
John Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; John Legal now has $31,231.00.

This is a prime example of how broken our thinking is of our taxes. Unless John's spouse is a high earner and he'd be better off staying home with the kids, John didn't pay for sh*t.

John "middle class" Legal thinks he pays taxes. It's right there, 30% off the top. He doesn't.

If John has a W2 income of $52,000, is married and two kids, without another single thing, John and family will pay $588 in Federal income tax and $0 in California income tax. The child tax credit and California exemption wipes out his income taxes. Go do the ____ing math, the tax form takes all of 3 minutes at this level.

That leaves social security, which is 7.65% if W2 and 15.3% if self employed. Medicare is 1.45% of that, or 2.9% if self employed.

Since John's family only makes $52K, they qualify for a $304/month assistance on for medical insurance. Broken, pain in the butt, sure, but roughly half of their premium.

They're damn close to qualifying for SNAP too depending on their rent and housing expenses.

So John thinks he's paying for the roads, police, firefighters and everything else with his $588 per year in taxes while sending two kids to school at $9000+ per year each.

I agree with most of this. John should probably claim at least 6 dependents on his W-4 at work so he can keep more of his paycheck and not get such a large tax refund.

Covered CA isn't going to use $52K for John's income. They're going to use his MAGI. I maintain that John and Ms. Legal can get an HMO "marketplace" plan for $1 to $11 month each and a PPO plan for $27 to $70 mo each depending on their ages. They at least qualify for a Silver 73 plan and possibly even a Silver 87 plan with the two kids (which have copay assistance built into them). Their two kids will be placed into expanded Medi-Cal under the new March 2015 guidelines for "moderate income" families.

Submitted by deadzone on June 4, 2016 - 8:43am.

bewildering wrote:
Most of OPs comment seems contrived and ignores the major issue:

The negative effect of illegal immigration on "john legals" salary. Why pay 25/hour for the same work as 10/hour. Low/semi skilled workers are people that lose out most to illegal immigration.

All the academic research I have seen indicates that illegal immigration greatly benefits the wealthy, but absolutely screws the poor, especially the working poor.

Exactly, that's why there are a lot more Juans than Johns at Construction sites or other lower wage jobs around California.

Submitted by bearishgurl on June 4, 2016 - 8:51am.

bewildering wrote:
Most of OPs comment seems contrived and ignores the major issue:

The negative effect of illegal immigration on "john legals" salary. Why pay 25/hour for the same work as 10/hour. Low/semi skilled workers are people that lose out most to illegal immigration.

All the academic research I have seen indicates that illegal immigration greatly benefits the wealthy, but absolutely screws the poor, especially the working poor.


I agree with this post. But I disagree that working in a "blue collar" occupation automatically means that one will be "poor" throughout their working lives. Unfortunately, in our part of the country, wages paid to illegal immigrants for some trades (mainly construction, landscaping and manual labor) significantly lowers the wages of legal American citizens who legitimately trained in these occupations thru state-approved programs (in CA, ROP - CC) and obtained a 2-year official "journey-level certificate." These much lower wages long after graduation often renders the worker and their families eligible for public assistance (ex: SNAP, WIC and free child care as well as rent subsidies), where, if they were being paid their union wages of yesteryear, they would be solidly "middle-class" taxpaying families off the dole.

My advice to anyone considering going into the trades in SoCal and other border cities across the nation would be to major in a trade like HVAC, Electrician or Master Plumber where they could get a well-paying job with a general contractor. Either that, or move far away from the border after graduation to ply their trade in an area which is NOT infiltrated with cheap immigrant labor. There ARE still some areas left in the nation which are not crawling with cheap immigrant labor willing to do almost anything for .20 to .40 on the dollar. SoCal is not one of them, nor is most of the state.

Submitted by bobby on June 4, 2016 - 9:38am.

Quote:
......or $52,000.00 per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; John Legal now has $31,231.00......

John Legal should get a better accountant or spend $3 to buy a calculator
30% tax on 52,000 is 36,400

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 4, 2016 - 10:01am.

This is a stupid scenario. There are plenty of legal Juans and mixed families. The legal ones often have 2 or 3 jobs, meaning they are working hardest. My carpet guy was born in USA. He works on big commercial buildings and runs a small business on the side. He dad might be undocumented, or was at one point.

Submitted by bearishgurl on June 4, 2016 - 10:44am.

FlyerInHi wrote:
This is a stupid scenario. There are plenty of legal Juans and mixed families. The legal ones often have 2 or 3 jobs, meaning they are working hardest. My carpet guy was born in USA. He works on big commercial buildings and runs a small business on the side. He dad might be undocumented, or was at one point.
I agree with this.

Submitted by deadzone on June 4, 2016 - 7:59pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
This is a stupid scenario. There are plenty of legal Juans and mixed families. The legal ones often have 2 or 3 jobs, meaning they are working hardest. My carpet guy was born in USA. He works on big commercial buildings and runs a small business on the side. He dad might be undocumented, or was at one point.

You missed the point entirely. Juan in the hypothetical scenario is merely a nick-name for the illegal immigrant worker. Your example of a legal worker who happens to be named Juan is actually John in this case because he is the one being hurt by the immigrant labor force pushing down his wages.

Submitted by poorgradstudent on June 6, 2016 - 4:28pm.

I'm very happy to see data-driven Piggs completely destroy this post.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 6, 2016 - 4:43pm.

deadzone wrote:

You missed the point entirely. Juan in the hypothetical scenario is merely a nick-name for the illegal immigrant worker. Your example of a legal worker who happens to be named Juan is actually John in this case because he is the one being hurt by the immigrant labor force pushing down his wages.

Ok. I concede a little.. but only a little.

Of course, undocumented immigration does push down wages for legal residents. And that's why we should legalize undocumented immigrants already here so they can ask for higher wages.

With economic evolution the benefits are distributed to the economy as a whole, but the downside are concentrated on some groups who lose their jobs. We just need a better policy responses to help the affected groups.

Submitted by SK in CV on June 6, 2016 - 5:27pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
Of course, undocumented immigration does push down wages for legal residents.

I know that seems to be conventional wisdom. But is it true? Any research to support the claim? I've seen plenty of research that indicates it's not accurate.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 6, 2016 - 6:33pm.

SK in CV wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:
Of course, undocumented immigration does push down wages for legal residents.

I know that seems to be conventional wisdom. But is it true? Any research to support the claim? I've seen plenty of research that indicates it's not accurate.

I take it back. I don't think it's true in the aggregate because legal and undocumented workers work different jobs. For legal residents where there's an overlap, I would say yes. Some may also argue that if it weren't for undocumented immigrants, some jobs would pay more.

Submitted by deadzone on June 6, 2016 - 9:27pm.

SK in CV wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:
Of course, undocumented immigration does push down wages for legal residents.

I know that seems to be conventional wisdom. But is it true? Any research to support the claim? I've seen plenty of research that indicates it's not accurate.

Are you serious? there is absolutely no logical argument that can be made for this not to be the case. Do your seriously need to see "research" to prove the theory of supply and demand?

Submitted by SK in CV on June 6, 2016 - 9:51pm.

deadzone wrote:
SK in CV wrote:
FlyerInHi wrote:
Of course, undocumented immigration does push down wages for legal residents.

I know that seems to be conventional wisdom. But is it true? Any research to support the claim? I've seen plenty of research that indicates it's not accurate.

Are you serious? there is absolutely no logical argument that can be made for this not to be the case. Do your seriously need to see "research" to prove the theory of supply and demand?

I prefer research to gut feelings. Gut feelings are always subject to bias.

From nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/Immi...

[T]he impact of immigration [on a nation’s economy] remains small, for several reasons. Immigrants are not competitive in many types of jobs, and hence are not direct substitutes for natives. Local employers increase demand for low-skilled labor in areas that receive low-skilled immigrant inflows. Immigrants contribute to demand for goods and services that they consume, in turn increasing the demand for labor. And immigrants contribute to labor market efficiency and long-term economic growth.

From David Griswold, economist from Center for Trade Policy Studies at the libertarian Cato Institute:

The addition of low-skilled immigrants expands the size of the overall economy, creating higher-wage openings for managers, craftsmen, accountants, and the like. The net result is a greater financial reward and relatively more opportunities for those Americans who finish high school.

and from Heidi Shierholz of the Economic Policy Institute:

http://www.epi.org/publication/bp255/

In the ongoing debate on immigration, there is broad agreement among academic economists that it has a small but positive impact on the wages of native-born workers overall: although new immigrant workers add to the labor supply, they also consume goods and services, which creates more jobs .

and from the same source:

A key result from this work is that the estimated effect of immigration from 1994 to 2007 was to raise the wages of U.S.-born workers, relative to foreign-born workers, by 0.4% (or $3.68 per week), and to lower the wages of foreign-born workers, relative to U.S.-born workers, by 4.6% (or $33.11 per week).

No, I don't need to see research on the theory of supply and demand. That wasn't the question. The question was whether undocumented aliens push down wages. And I have seen research on that, and the conclusion is that it doesn't. Do you have actual research on the referenced subject that says otherwise?

Submitted by deadzone on June 6, 2016 - 10:35pm.

These studies are clearly biased in order to promote immigration. But if you want to believe this garbage, then go ahead. If this is true, then we should promote open borders and unlimited immigration since it will improve all of our wages.

Submitted by bearishgurl on June 7, 2016 - 12:08am.

deadzone wrote:
These studies are clearly biased in order to promote immigration. But if you want to believe this garbage, then go ahead. If this is true, then we should promote open borders and unlimited immigration since it will improve all of our wages.
LOL ... we already have this, and all of CA's mayors, county boards of supervisors and all their agencies on up to the governor well know this fact, as well the superintendents of CA public school districts, heads of social service agencies, the US Homeland Security Dept and all of their respective agencies, the US District Courts in CA and their judiciary, the state courts and their judiciary, The head of the CA Dept of Corrections (CDC), etc, etc. CA's county counsels repeatedly sue the state for operating funds for "unfunded mandates" to service illegal aliens and in turn, the CA AG's office repeatedly sues the Federal Gubment for same.

And on and on and on it goes. It's been like this since the mid-eighties and if someone doesn't get into the highest office in the land to change things around, it will continue to be.

Alas, the truth is that these bureaucrats' hands are tied ... yes even the border patrol. They can do nothing about the sieve of people coming over the border every day. Border Patrol agents in AZ aren't even allowed to tell their superiors that the groups of people coming over are larger than 20 people. They're not allowed to apprehend and deport that many people at once, even though they have the manpower and resources to do so. See video in the following link:

http://www.independentsentinel.com/dhs-r...

Now, we have all these thugs making asses of themselves attacking people, kicking in vehicles (incl police vehicles), starting fires and waving MX flags outside of Trump rallies up and down the state on national TV and everyone else in the country with a TV set knows it, too. Sweet! Maybe we won't have anymore domestic in-migration for awhile until CA's problems can be addressed by the PTB in Washington DC. It can't come soon enough.

Submitted by deadzone on June 7, 2016 - 9:29am.

Although it is obvious the government is doing next to nothing to enforce immigration laws, it is certainly not an official policy to allow unlimited number of foreign workers. Although when the liberals talk about "immigration reform" that is what they really want.

But again, according to these brilliant studies, the presence of the illegal workers is raising my wages too. Unfortunately, like most middle class professionals, my "real" wages are not going up. In fact the amount taken out of my pay check for health care is creeping up every year. Not going to blame that entirely on the illegals but certainly they are contributing to that.

Submitted by SK in CV on June 7, 2016 - 10:52am.

bearishgurl wrote:
deadzone wrote:
These studies are clearly biased in order to promote immigration. But if you want to believe this garbage, then go ahead. If this is true, then we should promote open borders and unlimited immigration since it will improve all of our wages.
LOL ... we already have this, and all of CA's mayors, county boards of supervisors and all their agencies on up to the governor well know this fact, as well the superintendents of CA public school districts, heads of social service agencies, the US Homeland Security Dept and all of their respective agencies, the US District Courts in CA and their judiciary, the state courts and their judiciary, The head of the CA Dept of Corrections (CDC), etc, etc. CA's county counsels repeatedly sue the state for operating funds for "unfunded mandates" to service illegal aliens and in turn, the CA AG's office repeatedly sues the Federal Gubment for same.

And on and on and on it goes. It's been like this since the mid-eighties and if someone doesn't get into the highest office in the land to change things around, it will continue to be.

Alas, the truth is that these bureaucrats' hands are tied ... yes even the border patrol. They can do nothing about the sieve of people coming over the border every day. Border Patrol agents in AZ aren't even allowed to tell their superiors that the groups of people coming over are larger than 20 people. They're not allowed to apprehend and deport that many people at once, even though they have the manpower and resources to do so. See video in the following link:

http://www.independentsentinel.com/dhs-r...

Now, we have all these thugs making asses of themselves attacking people, kicking in vehicles (incl police vehicles), starting fires and waving MX flags outside of Trump rallies up and down the state on national TV and everyone else in the country with a TV set knows it, too. Sweet! Maybe we won't have anymore domestic in-migration for awhile until CA's problems can be addressed by the PTB in Washington DC. It can't come soon enough.

You know none of this is the least bit responsive to the post that originated this piece of the thread, right?

And you know there hasn't been any net migration of undocumented aliens in around 6 years right? As many are leaving as arriving.

We've seen your rants about brown people enough times now. There isn't any reason for you to post them again and again, particularly when they aren't the least bit relevant to the discussion.

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