Irony: Trump the liberal

User Forum Topic
Submitted by EconProf on June 1, 2018 - 8:09am

In terms of accomplishing liberals' goals, Trump should be applauded. On many fronts--not all--he is succeeding. A booming economy, record low unemployment, wages picking up steam, state tax revenues exceeding all predictions. These are priorities liberals say they want. Perhaps that's why his popularity is climbing.
Overseas he is bringing North Koreas to the negotiating table, convinced NATO "allies" to up their defense budget, and stood up to Syria and ISIS.
Is all this why the Blue Wave in the upcoming midterm election is looking more like a ripple?

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 1, 2018 - 8:38am.

With Trump, the only liberal thing is the protectionism. That was a democratic issue of the 1980s. Definitely not conservative and something an economist, other than Peter Navarro, would support.

Not sure how other people feel, but my liberal issues are immigration and legalization of long time residents, women's right, gay rights, sex descrimination, environmental protection, food health, universal healthcare, college education,....all the urban cosmopolitan priorities,

I have written off the deplorables as not part of my "family". I reject their culture. One of my friends has deplorable parents and he doesn't like my use of the term. He said it's not a noun. I responded that if deplorables don't exist, neither do illegals. Off course, deplorables would never give up the noun "illegal".

Submitted by The-Shoveler on June 1, 2018 - 8:51am.

IMO the two biggest issues most voters will focus on are:

1) The Economy (the vast majority will vote their pocket book)

2) Health-Care.

Everything else is more on the fringe than some want to believe.

Submitted by svelte on June 1, 2018 - 9:10am.

EconProf wrote:
In terms of accomplishing liberals' goals, Trump should be applauded. On many fronts--not all--he is succeeding. A booming economy, record low unemployment, wages picking up steam, state tax revenues exceeding all predictions. These are priorities liberals say they want. Perhaps that's why his popularity is climbing.

Well, you're giving him a bit more credit than he deserves. The economy was improving every day when he took office, which brings lower unemployment and higher wages with it. Unless you can show me a definite spike in those figures after he took office, tend not to credit him with those.

There have been a few things I've liked that he has done, but he seems to have always screwed them up in the end. A small tax cut would have been great, but the over-the-top cut he implemented increased the deficit. Funny how Republicans are anti-deficit until they control the government...

I also liked his states-rights stance when he was first elected, but he seems to have jettisoned that also. Witness his desire to take away California's right for strict car emission standards.

Finally, the stock market has certainly improved under his watch, no doubt about it. Which I'm fine with, as long as he doesn't undo so many financial safeguards that we go right back into another financial crisis.

I'm an undeclared, neither Dem nor Rep, so I can pick and choose the best from both sides. I've liked both Bushes, Clinton, and Obama. Though mostly in retrospect - I was much more critical of them while in office. But I'll tell you this: Trump will easily go down as the worst president in my lifetime and probably all the way back to 1900. Worse than even Nixon and Carter. Just horrific.

Submitted by EconProf on June 1, 2018 - 9:21am.

svelte wrote:
EconProf wrote:
In terms of accomplishing liberals' goals, Trump should be applauded. On many fronts--not all--he is succeeding. A booming economy, record low unemployment, wages picking up steam, state tax revenues exceeding all predictions. These are priorities liberals say they want. Perhaps that's why his popularity is climbing.

Well, you're giving him a bit more credit than he deserves. The economy was improving every day when he took office, which brings lower unemployment and higher wages with it. Unless you can show me a definite spike in those figures after he took office, tend not to credit him with those.

There have been a few things I've liked that he has done, but he seems to have always screwed them up in the end. A small tax cut would have been great, but the over-the-top cut he implemented increased the deficit. Funny how Republicans are anti-deficit until they control the government...

I also liked his states-rights stance when he was first elected, but he seems to have jettisoned that also. Witness his desire to take away California's right for strict car emission standards.

Finally, the stock market has certainly improved under his watch, no doubt about it. Which I'm fine with, as long as he doesn't undo so many financial safeguards that we go right back into another financial crisis.

I'm an undeclared, neither Dem nor Rep, so I can pick and choose the best from both sides. I've liked both Bushes, Clinton, and Obama. Though mostly in retrospect - I was much more critical of them while in office. But I'll tell you this: Trump will easily go down as the worst president in my lifetime and probably all the way back to 1900. Worse than even Nixon and Carter. Just horrific.


OK, here's the spike: The growth rate during Obama's 8 years averaged under 2%. This despite the historical tendency for deep recessions to be followed by strong recoveries. Under Trump the annual growth rate is approximately 3% per year, a difference that has a big long run impact over time.
BTW, I'm not saying Trump is a nice guy. His tweets are adolescent, his comments gross, his personal history shameful, and his tweets damaging even to his supporters. But ironically, by doing the opposite of what Obama did for 8 years, he is accomplishing some surprisingly good things.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 1, 2018 - 9:34am.

The-Shoveler wrote:
IMO the two biggest issues most voters will focus on are:

1) The Economy (the vast majority will vote their pocket book)

2) Health-Care.

Everything else is more on the fringe than some want to believe.

I agree. The average American is not aware of details.
But I believe that the economy is only benefiting urban areas. And health care is not looking good across the board. Substance addiction is getting worse.

Trump is accelerating American decline and in decades to come we will be worse off relative to the rest of the world.

New book about the wealth of nations. its all about education. I've been saying so all along.
https://youtu.be/ezJeB9stI5k
Zk, you should watch this video.... it has to do with sexual equality also and how men will have less power and potentially getting less sex in the future.

Submitted by spdrun on June 1, 2018 - 9:45am.

A lot of the so called ecahhhhnamy in the US now involves destruction of health and privacy...

Either murder of the environment via resource extraction, or murder of personal privacy via technology/I.T. Electric cars are great, self-driving/connected cars stink for privacy. And a "smart TV" aka telescreen and an Amazon/Google blabber-box. Not in my fucking home.

The only good news is that the candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. Hope the hangover will be long, hard, and painful, setting dirty energy and privacy-stealing technologies back by a few decades.

Submitted by The-Shoveler on June 1, 2018 - 9:56am.

I will add one more thing here on the Health-care issue.

A Republican who would support universal healthcare may actually be be hard to beat (as really secretly even most republican voters would like to see this happen), but do not support things like the high speed rail etc...

The democrats record on this issue is spotty at best, it has been voted down several times in the mostly democratic California congress.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 1, 2018 - 9:58am.

Silicon Valley is doing well, but Sears and Toy R Us ar closing down. Not good for the local malls and psychology of many towns. Unless you're in a desirable urban area like UTC or Irvine Spectrum.

Submitted by spdrun on June 1, 2018 - 10:19am.

Shoveler, you mean the Kaiser-kontrolled Kalifornia Kongress?

Submitted by The-Shoveler on June 1, 2018 - 10:21am.

spdrun wrote:
Shoveler, you mean the Kaiser-kontrolled Kalifornia Kongress?

LOL yea that would be the one.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 1, 2018 - 10:59am.

Shoveler, ironically, universal health care would be great for business because it would be one huge burden they could offload. Plus tech workers especially could be more productive and become free agents without worrying about health care.

But Republicans have boxed themselves in on the issue.

Spdrun, I don’t care about privacy. The new IOT techs have allowed me to manage my properties better, at very low cost. Easy to spot intruders on property and get rid of the homeless and vagrants so I can charge more rent.

Don’t be so ideological. Go with what works. And success is the best evidence of righteousness.

Submitted by spdrun on June 1, 2018 - 11:02am.

FIH - the homeless have a hard enough life without "people" like you snitching them out to the cops.

Agreed about healthcare -- but US tech corepirations don't want tech workers to become "free agents." They want it to be easy to keep 'em working 75 hours a week with a weeks of vacay per year.

Submitted by zk on June 1, 2018 - 11:27am.

Most of the OP is complete nonsense. (Trump isn't responsible for what's happening in the economy, his rise in popularity probably is due to the economy (falsely attributed to him), ISIS is on the upswing, he's done very little in Syria, and he hasn't accomplished jack shit in Korea). Somebody's been watching too much fox propaganda.

As for the blue wave, you'll be eating those words come November.

Submitted by svelte on June 1, 2018 - 11:32am.

EconProf wrote:

svelte wrote:
EconProf wrote:
In terms of accomplishing liberals' goals, Trump should be applauded. On many fronts--not all--he is succeeding. A booming economy, record low unemployment, wages picking up steam, state tax revenues exceeding all predictions...

Well, you're giving him a bit more credit than he deserves. The economy was improving every day when he took office, which brings lower unemployment and higher wages with it. Unless you can show me a definite spike in those figures after he took office, tend not to credit him with those.


OK, here's the spike: The growth rate during Obama's 8 years averaged under 2%. This despite the historical tendency for deep recessions to be followed by strong recoveries. Under Trump the annual growth rate is approximately 3% per year, a difference that has a big long run impact over time.

I notice you switched horses from unemployment, wages, etc to growth rate. Seemed to me that might indicate those numbers don't tell the story you wanted to tell, so I checked. They don't.
2017 US Unemployment Rate

2017 US Wage Growth

Even the growth rate story doesn't really pan out so far. If you look at this graph, Obama's first year growth rate is roughly equivalent to Obama's. If you want to compare Obama's best growth rate year to Trumps, Obama wins. I think it only fair that we wait a few years before we declare victory/failure on Trump's policies.

US Growth Rate 2017

EconProf wrote:

BTW, I'm not saying Trump is a nice guy. His tweets are adolescent, his comments gross, his personal history shameful, and his tweets damaging even to his supporters. But ironically, by doing the opposite of what Obama did for 8 years, he is accomplishing some surprisingly good things.

I think his unpredictability may have a good side too...we all know the bad side of it. The good side is it keeps other countries on edge...what tariff / embargo will he implement next? That gives them motivation to give us a great deal that he'll like.

I still wish he wasn't our president.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 1, 2018 - 8:24pm.

Being unpredictable is not good. I doubt Trump can outfox those who are well versed in the art of diplomacy. Trump if being played by Putin, China,North Korea, South Korea, Israel, Saudi Arabia... the establishment is very worried he will give away too much.
Trump doesn’t care about national security and the greater good . He just wants short term victories he can claim.

Submitted by La Jolla Renter on June 1, 2018 - 8:57pm.

The 2 biggest issues I believed Obama would fix was healthcare and the black community (specifically employment, race relations, and education) once an for all.

I don't know how the average family of four is doing with their promised $2,500 a year healthcare savings, but my personal ppo has gone from $313 to $1089 under Obama care.

Obama failed the black community by every measure I can see unless I put on my Al Sharpton CNN glasses. When the media love affair wears off, history will figure this one out.

Submitted by spdrun on June 1, 2018 - 9:09pm.

Black community?

Several states actually started reduced/free higher ed programs during or right after Obama's presidency.

Cops are actually being held to account in public for being racist or abusive, power-drunk shits. Unlike under Bush, where they were "heroes" who could do no wrong. BLM did a lot to the reputations of law enforcement in the US, and it was a good thing!

Marijuana legalisation/criminal justice reform also started under Obama. Again a good thing.

Race relations? I hardly think that Obama causing racists to come out of the woodwork and act butthurt was his fault.

Submitted by spdrun on June 1, 2018 - 9:09pm.

Black community?

Several states actually started reduced/free higher ed programs during or right after Obama's presidency.

Cops are actually being held to account in public for being racist or abusive, power-drunk shits. Unlike under Bush, where they were "heroes" who could do no wrong. BLM did a lot to the reputations of law enforcement in the US, and it was a good thing!

Marijuana legalisation/criminal justice reform also started under Obama. Again a good thing.

Race relations? I hardly think that Obama causing racists to come out of the woodwork and act butthurt was his fault.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 1, 2018 - 10:06pm.

Obama fixing the black community is a funny concept. We, all together, need to fix the black community and that will take decades.

I can tell you the low income white community is not doing much better for lack of education. I see the potential tenants that I reject. Lots of drugs and dysfunction, fucked up families, same as “the blacks”. The whites are actually a little more entitled in attitude. They actually think they can rent without deposit.

We are a big country so we have lots of smart people. But we, as a society, don’t value education for everyone. We will suffer in the long run.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 2, 2018 - 10:44am.

There is more and more academic and historical evidence that Trump’s election was White backlash against the first Black President. The old order not liking the social changes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...

Indian economist, Surjit S. Bhalla, also posits that there is backlash against global education and the rise of women around the world. The lower classes of society always could go home and feel superior to women. In the West, men could feel superior to blacks, immigrants and women. The changes are messing with their psychology.

https://youtu.be/E92pfvHLf6w

Submitted by svelte on June 2, 2018 - 2:59pm.

Schwarzenegger has become very adept at trolling the Trump idiocy. In response to reports that Trump is considering ordering grid operators to buy electricity from coal and nuclear plants, Arnold tweeted:

"I eagerly await the administration's regulations protecting pagers, fax machines, and Blockbuster."

Submitted by EconProf on June 2, 2018 - 4:04pm.

La Jolla Renter wrote:
The 2 biggest issues I believed Obama would fix was healthcare and the black community (specifically employment, race relations, and education) once an for all.

I don't know how the average family of four is doing with their promised $2,500 a year healthcare savings, but my personal ppo has gone from $313 to $1089 under Obama care.

Obama failed the black community by every measure I can see unless I put on my Al Sharpton CNN glasses. When the media love affair wears off, history will figure this one out.

Exactly right LJR.
We all thought race relations would get better under Obama, and instead they got worse. While it is hard to measure such an ambiguous concept of "race relations", and thus compare them under one administration vs. another, I did see recently how black males' support of Trump jumped from 11% to 22%. Sorry, I can't remember the source. But I wonder if it is connected to the remarkable drop in unemployment rates under Trump. A notable feature of this drop has been the observation that it has dropped the most for the historically least educated, poorest, and minority segments of society.
Back when unemployment rates were high, employers could be choosy and demand perfection among their applicants. Now, with the ranks of the unemployed shrinking, they must take some risks, hire those they think they can train, and BTW, pay them more in order to attract them. All this is ideal for minorities, those with less education, those with a troubled past, etc.
The high GDP growth rate--low unemployment environment that Trump has created will do more to help minorities than any number of government-sponsored "training courses" or useless college majors, or bigger welfare payments to help this segment of society.
Whatever you may think of Trump personally, he is accomplishing objectives that liberals claimed to want. The irony is delicious.

Submitted by spdrun on June 2, 2018 - 6:47pm.

Most of the drop in unemployment was under Obama, Trump just continued the trend.

Unemployment rate peaked at 10.0% early in Obama's term. Last full month of Obama's presidency, rate was 4.7%. Fell to 3.8% under Trump.

Submitted by EconProf on June 2, 2018 - 7:35pm.

spdrun wrote:
Most of the drop in unemployment was under Obama, Trump just continued the trend.

Unemployment rate peaked at 10.0% early in Obama's term. Last full month of Obama's presidency, rate was 4.7%. Fell to 3.8% under Trump.

Of course. Obama was in office for 8 years, Trump 1 1/2.
The drop in unemployment rates under Obama was slower than it should have been because the economy was burdened with greater regulations, Dodd-Frank, Obamacare, and higher taxes. Trump has reversed many of these burdens so that, as the NY Times put it in a headline: "We ran out of words to describe how good the job numbers are".
As for African-American unemployment, it fell from 6.6% in April to 5.9% in May, lowest for that group in history.
Look for more of the same. The Atlanta Fed predicts 2d Qtr. GNP will increase by a sizzling 4.8%. Under Obama, the average annual GDP growth rate was under 2%.

Submitted by spdrun on June 2, 2018 - 8:39pm.

Atlanta Fed also predicted 5% growth in Q1 2018. Real print: 2.2%.

Dodd-Frank keeps the banks from loaning money to the same kinds of unqualified skells that got foreclosed in 2008. If you want a temporary bubble, OK, but this isn't sustainable.

Obamacare? Is self-employed people being able to get healthcare at group rates really such a bad thing?

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 2, 2018 - 9:18pm.

Econprof, Did it occur to you that macro economics wise the only irony is that deficit spending works in spades to spur economic growth especially in a low interest rate environment.

Right wing ideology has been proven to be total bullshit . No dollar debasement, no hyperinflation in the last decade. Right wingers have abandoned balanced budgets.

What does the professor say?

Submitted by EconProf on June 2, 2018 - 9:23pm.

spdrun wrote:
Atlanta Fed also predicted 5% growth in Q1 2018. Real print: 2.2%.

Dodd-Frank keeps the banks from loaning money to the same kinds of unqualified skells that got foreclosed in 2008. If you want a temporary bubble, OK, but this isn't sustainable.

Obamacare? Is self-employed people being able to get healthcare at group rates really such a bad thing?

I seriously doubt the Atlanta Fed predicted 5% growth in the first quarter. Citation please. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.

Obamacare put a $2000 fee on employers who did not offer their workers the right kind of health insurance, thus reducing hiring. Many companies keep their employees under 50 to escape Obamacare.

Dodd-Frank was a needed corrective for the reckless banking practices and resulting bailouts of the large banks. Unfortunately, Dodd-Frank applied to all banks regardless of size. But smaller banks, community banks were not the problem--they were not reckless, they did not need the bailouts. But they were saddled with ridiculous reporting requirements and silly rules. As a result, small towns and small businesses were hurt, and many of these banks were bought up by the big banks or disappeared altogether. Because small businesses could not get loans to start up or expand, a lot of hiring that should have taken place did not. Those small businesses and startups are the primary employers of people looking for their first jobs, not the giant corporations.
Dodd-Frank was recently amended to exclude smaller banks, but the damage has already been done.

Submitted by spdrun on June 2, 2018 - 9:35pm.

Atlanta Fed, 5.4% predicted for Q1 2018:
http://www.businessinsider.com/atlanta-f...

Obamacare employer mandate is still in place, BTW. Though personally, I think the whole fucking thing should be torn down and replaced with public insurance for all.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on June 2, 2018 - 10:55pm.

We can argue on a micro level forever.
But macro wise, it’s all deficit spending. Even the Republicans have embraced the concept of a huge infrastructure bill. So actually during the Obama years, the Republicans retarded economic growth by obsructing, thus impoverishing us all.

Submitted by EconProf on June 3, 2018 - 7:24am.

spdrun wrote:
Atlanta Fed, 5.4% predicted for Q1 2018:
http://www.businessinsider.com/atlanta-f...

Obamacare employer mandate is still in place, BTW. Though personally, I think the whole fucking thing should be torn down and replaced with public insurance for all.

You are right about the Atlanta Fed's forecast, and I stand corrected.
If you want the government to take over all of health care, then stay in California. Several candidates for governor and other offices are pushing "Medicare for All", or single payer (gov.), or other such take-overs that would give us a complete European/Canadian-style system. They don't like to talk about the cost, however, which would double the state budget. So, whatever we now pay in income taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes, etc. would double. Then the wealthy would really start moving out, meaning yet higher taxes for those remaining, etc., etc.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.