inflation inflation everywhere!

User Forum Topic
Submitted by Coronita on June 14, 2021 - 10:50pm

What would you consider a worse scenario.

1. A 2-2 condo in Mira Mesa that lists for $460k, but comes back with a counter "as-is" demanding $500k...

or

2. An entry level mobile engineer with 1 year of relevant experience, remote worker, based in "lower cost" Texas, demanding $118k/year because thats the offer he got elsewhere....and your boss and recruiter yelling at you because you balked and said no, considering 2 months ago, it only cost your budget $95k...

..it really sucks to be the person hiring these days just like it sucks to be the one trying to buy a house today...

so...im off the market for another property....and im going to try to find another job that pays 20-25% just because thats what everyone else is doing....gotta keep up with inflation

Submitted by The-Shoveler on June 15, 2021 - 7:25am.

We seem to be losing people (quitting) at a record rate.

Submitted by sdrealtor on June 15, 2021 - 9:48am.

Should've taken that engineering scholarship 40 years ago

Submitted by sdrealtor on June 15, 2021 - 9:48am.

,

Submitted by Snick on June 15, 2021 - 11:24am.

Worst case is this schlub extorting extra dineros because he overpaid for his house and miscalculated homeownership expenses. If its a WFH situation, why not just take the higher paying offer?

Submitted by utcsox on June 15, 2021 - 9:34pm.

Coronita wrote:
What would you consider a worse scenario.

2. An entry level mobile engineer with 1 year of relevant experience, remote worker, based in "lower cost" Texas, demanding $118k/year because thats the offer he got elsewhere....and your boss and recruiter yelling at you because you balked and said no, considering 2 months ago, it only cost your budget $95k...

..it really sucks to be the person hiring these days just like it sucks to be the one trying to buy a house today...

Can you explain on why it really sucks to be the person hiring these days?

Submitted by Coronita on June 16, 2021 - 2:56am.

utcsox wrote:
Coronita wrote:
What would you consider a worse scenario.

2. An entry level mobile engineer with 1 year of relevant experience, remote worker, based in "lower cost" Texas, demanding $118k/year because thats the offer he got elsewhere....and your boss and recruiter yelling at you because you balked and said no, considering 2 months ago, it only cost your budget $95k...

..it really sucks to be the person hiring these days just like it sucks to be the one trying to buy a house today...

Can you explain on why it really sucks to be the person hiring these days?

Sure.. It's basically like trying to buy a house today. Limited supply, everyone else wants to buy a house. Supply and demand driving up prices.

Similar for mobile engineers, even before pre-covid, it was already hard to find well qualified mobile engineers. It took us about 2 months to find 3 good middle level engineers. When covid hit, my company decided (stupidly, out of my control) to furlough all engineers 1 day per week. For california employees,that was great because under CA covid-19 unemployment laws, all the furloughed engineers were paid 32 hours, and then could claim unemployment on the 5th day under CA's worksharing program, which worked out ok because engineers were paid more that day with the state AND federal lump sum UI benefit (came out to be about $1000/day)

But there were a bunch of non-CA engineers that didn't have tje same state benefit that allowed them to qualify for state UI benefits since it was only 1 day of lost work...no state UI benefit, then no federal lump sum $600 benefit too... So, well, they quit and found a job quickly within 2-3 weeks by companies that never closed or reduced hours...

Now that we are back to full business (and more, since we have a lot of interest from old and new customers) that need our product to safely reopen, I need to staff up in addition to the engineers I lost.

Problemville: those that are good and looking for a job have 4-5 offers chasing them, and since remote-work has been proven to be a viable option, we're competing a lot with Bay Area companies, even for the employees that traditionally are located in lower cost areas like Florida, Texas, Idaho, etc. Because most companies are offering 3 choices

1. Fully remote
2. Hybrid (X days in office, Y days remote)
3. Fully in office

just like us...

So the candidates that use to be in lower cost areas..wages has gone up considerably, since they no longer are stuck working at a company in their local area that might want to pay lower.

The funny part is my company is headquartered in FL and for the longest time has complained they don't want to hire anyone in CA because of the much higher salaries...Well, now that some CA companies went into Florida and are offering remote opportunities at CA salaries, companies in Florida like mine are going through a painful awakening:

1. denial: "nah, that's not happening. We can still find senior engineers for under $100k"

to

2. shock: "what do you mean a junior engineer that is asking for $115-8k has 3 offers in that range..."

to

3. depression: "we haven't been able to fill these jobs in the past 3-6 months and it's starting to impact our business"...

I was called into a meeting, and it started out with ..."why haven't these positions been filled"... And I bluntly said, "well originally you offered a shitty comp package. And now you're offering something that would have been good 3-4 months ago, but now this is on the low side too. I suggested you hire new pr 1-2 year newbies to train them up... months ago, when no one else was hiring and they were looking for a job..You said you weren't willing to do that. But now, you've changed your mind, but guess what? So has every other company. So you're going to compete for well qualified new grads and those with 1-2 years experience too..."

The candidates I'm talking to are not even based in CA. These are candidates in the middle of the US...I'm not even really considering CA candidates, and when asked why, I bluntly said "because you can't afford them..." Speaking of which, I have an interview this week...lol...

Then there was this candidate that we wanted to move into round 2 of the interview, and the way we do it do a take home assignment that the candidate can work on his free time (without the pressure/stress of a chalkboard/whiteboarding programming exercise in traditional interview)...But the candidate got all butt hurt that it took 2-3 hours, and then was upset that the earliest interview time we could give him was 4 days later....So he leaves a negative review on Glassdoor complaining about it..I was like WTF...And he wasn't even that good and definitely not at the comp's he wanted...

It's a great time to be a mobile engineer with a shred of experience. You can get a lot of mileage out of it right now, probably more so than most other engineering types. When I find my next gig, all is fair if I poach my old team, lol...

There's like a $8000 bounty for each referral at my company. I'm pretty sure other companies have similar things. If I can poach an entire team, that's like a good $100k lol.

Submitted by svelte on June 16, 2021 - 6:49am.

Coronita wrote:

Then there was this candidate that we wanted to move into round 2 of the interview, and the way we do it do a take home assignment that the candidate can work on his free time (without the pressure/stress of a chalkboard/whiteboarding programming exercise in traditional interview)...But the candidate got all butt hurt that it took 2-3 hours, and then was upset that the earliest interview time we could give him was 4 days later....

In the past when I interviewed, if someone asked me to take a test I told them I just changed my mind and am no longer interested in their company. I still found jobs and it apparently never hurt my salary level.

I get that some companies want to ensure I have the chops I say I have, but at the same time I had no problem finding a job so I didn't have to put up with the hassle of taking tests. Next!

Coronita wrote:

There's like a $8000 bounty for each referral at my company. I'm pretty sure other companies have similar things.

From what I've seen, I think that is true.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 16, 2021 - 7:40am.

svelte wrote:
Coronita wrote:

Then there was this candidate that we wanted to move into round 2 of the interview, and the way we do it do a take home assignment that the candidate can work on his free time (without the pressure/stress of a chalkboard/whiteboarding programming exercise in traditional interview)...But the candidate got all butt hurt that it took 2-3 hours, and then was upset that the earliest interview time we could give him was 4 days later....

In the past when I interviewed, if someone asked me to take a test I told them I just changed my mind and am no longer interested in their company. I still found jobs and it apparently never hurt my salary level.

I get that some companies want to ensure I have the chops I say I have, but at the same time I had no problem finding a job so I didn't have to put up with the hassle of taking tests. Next!

Coronita wrote:

There's like a $8000 bounty for each referral at my company. I'm pretty sure other companies have similar things.

From what I've seen, I think that is true.

Is it unreasonable to ask to be paid for a test, refundable upon failure

Submitted by svelte on June 16, 2021 - 11:34am.

scaredyclassic wrote:

Is it unreasonable to ask to be paid for a test, refundable upon failure

Not a bad idea, but I think they should be paid, period.

Reason: I've heard tales of companies asking candidates to solve a problem. When the candidate turned in the solution, the company was never heard from again - they had their solution and used it...in other words, they used the "take a test" guise to get free work done.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on June 16, 2021 - 11:36am.

svelte wrote:
scaredyclassic wrote:

Is it unreasonable to ask to be paid for a test, refundable upon failure

Not a bad idea, but I think they should be paid, period.

Reason: I've heard tales of companies asking candidates to solve a problem. When the candidate turned in the solution, the company was never heard from again - they had their solution and used it...in other words, they used the "take a test" guise to get free work done.

I wonder if this is some wage law violation; could be a good class action lawsuit. The burden should be on the employer to prove it is a true, standardized test, not free work. And should be paid.

Submitted by Coronita on June 16, 2021 - 11:58am.

Oh we don't make the candidate do actual work. It's basically a simple app that shouldn't take longer than 2-3 hours. And basically, you write a simple app that loads a bunch of images from an image server like flicker or google photos using a public api, display it in a grid view, and allow you to zoom in on the image. Should be easy peasy....

Actually for our interview process, we offer a choice.

1. Take home assignment

or

2. Answer programming questions on an whiteboard in front of engineers

We don't care which approach, and either is fine, but a lot of us wanted to offer this 1st option because a lot of us, including me don't do well with the traditional whiteboard approach because we don't write good code under duress and with people looking over our shoulder. And some people like me, knowing there's the google/facebook style "grilling" interview, I don't want spend time studying for an interview pretending I can solve these irrelevant brain teaser IQ questions that Google and similar companies love to give candidates to test their IQ than their skillset, and don't want to be part of a system that encourages that practice. But that's just me.

Almost all candidates choose (1)

Because a lot of candidates who otherwise would write software well but can't do so under stress (like an 1 hour interview in front of people on a whiteboard) would rather take the same time at home in the comfort of their own place. And since it's open book, open internet, open anything, we encourage people to be resourceful as if they were on the job and didn't know how to do something to look it up themselves. We don't care, as long as they are honest about it, and during the panel interview we ask questions about why they did certain things, and made certain decisions, or how does a piece of code they (might have) copied and pasted works...Because that's what people these day do anyway....As long as you know what it does, doesn't really matter if you wrote it from scratch or not.

And there's been studies that the old style of technical interview does not really work well.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20...

"Tech sector job interviews assess anxiety, not software skills"


"Technical interviews are feared and hated in the industry, and it turns out that these interview techniques may also be hurting the industry's ability to find and hire skilled software engineers," says Chris Parnin, an assistant professor of computer science at NC State and co-author of a paper on the work. "Our study suggests that a lot of well-qualified job candidates are being eliminated because they're not used to working on a whiteboard in front of an audience."

Technical interviews in the software engineering sector generally take the form of giving a job candidate a problem to solve, then requiring the candidate to write out a solution in code on a whiteboard -- explaining each step of the process to an interviewer.

Previous research found that many developers in the software engineering community felt the technical interview process was deeply flawed. So the researchers decided to run a study aimed at assessing the effect of the interview process on aspiring software engineers.

For this study, researchers conducted technical interviews of 48 computer science undergraduates and graduate students. Half of the study participants were given a conventional technical interview, with an interviewer looking on. The other half of the participants were asked to solve their problem on a whiteboard in a private room. The private interviews did not require study participants to explain their solutions aloud, and had no interviewers looking over their shoulders.

Researchers measured each study participant's interview performance by assessing the accuracy and efficiency of each solution. In other words, they wanted to know whether the code they wrote would work, and the amount of computing resources needed to run it.

"People who took the traditional interview performed half as well as people that were able to interview in private," Parnin says. "In short, the findings suggest that companies are missing out on really good programmers because those programmers aren't good at writing on a whiteboard and explaining their work out loud while coding."

Also, interesting note:


The researchers also note that the current format of technical interviews may also be used to exclude certain job candidates.

"For example, interviewers may give easier problems to candidates they prefer," Parnin says. "But the format may also serve as a barrier to entire classes of candidates. For example, in our study, all of the women who took the public interview failed, while all of the women who took the private interview passed. Our study was limited, and a larger sample size would be needed to draw firm conclusions, but the idea that the very design of the interview process may effectively exclude an entire class of job candidates is troubling."

What's more, the specific nature of the technical interview process means that many job candidates try to spend weeks or months training specifically for the technical interview, rather than for the actual job they'd be doing.

"The technical interview process gives people with industry connections an advantage," says Mahnaz Behroozi, first author of study and a Ph.D. student at NC State. "But it gives a particularly large advantage to people who can afford to take the time to focus solely on preparing for an interview process that has very little to do with the nature of the work itself.

"And the problems this study highlights are in addition to a suite of other problems associated with the hiring process in the tech sector, which we presented at ICSE-SES [the International Conference on Software Engineering, Software Engineering In Society]," adds Behroozi. "If the tech sector can address all of these challenges in a meaningful way, it will make significant progress in becoming more fair and inclusive. More to the point, the sector will be drawing from a larger and more diverse talent pool, which would contribute to better work."

Submitted by an on June 16, 2021 - 2:26pm.

Coronita wrote:

Actually for our interview process, we offer a choice.

1. Take home assignment

or

2. Answer programming questions on an whiteboard in front of engineers


I only do #2. It's not so much about actually solving the problem, which is quite easy and you should be able to do it w/in 15 minutes, but more about how you communicate your solution, thought process, and how about conduct yourself when you're stuck. You'd be surprise at how many time I get people who say they have 10-15 years of experience who can't reverse a string. Then I also have some people who reach for the most complex solution for the simplest problem (using recursion to reverse a string).

Submitted by XBoxBoy on June 16, 2021 - 2:49pm.

an wrote:
Coronita wrote:

Actually for our interview process, we offer a choice.

1. Take home assignment

or

2. Answer programming questions on an whiteboard in front of engineers


You'd be surprise at how many time I get people who say they have 10-15 years of experience who can't reverse a string.

I don't find that surprising. I can't say in my 35 years of working as a programmer I've ever had to reverse a string.

While I don't know the details of the questions an asks or the tests Coronita sends home, I'd point out that in general tests and their questions turn out to be horrible predictors of programmer ability. Personally, I try to go with interview questions like, "Tell me about the toughest bug you ever had to solve? How did you go about solving it?" or, "What was the biggest challenge you faced working at your last job?" or "Of all the people you've worked with who was the person you learned the most from, and what did you learn?"

If I want to know about thought processes I often simply ask, "When asked to implement a new feature, what process do you like to follow?" (And btw, that last question is a trick question. The candidate who answers with the importance of fully designing before beginning to code is someone who likes to overdesign their stuff.)

Lastly, I like to see if a candidate can tell me a story, or a step by step procedure. They might have already told me a story with my earlier questions. And the reason that I think that's important is that despite all the people that say "programming is math" I've found it is more like writing a novel. You have a story (what the program does) you have characters (objects in code) that must interact (ahh, the code that binds it all together) and good code is a process of constant editing, editing and more editing.

The bottom line to me isn't whether the candidate has the ability to do some simple coding, (or more often than not, if they've reviewed a bunch of questions on sites that list the questions likely found on a programming exam) the question is can they contribute to a project with thousands of lines of code without creating a tangled mess. So, I try to focus my questions on figuring out how they'll do with that.

Just my two cents though...

Submitted by Coronita on June 16, 2021 - 2:58pm.

an wrote:
Coronita wrote:

Actually for our interview process, we offer a choice.

1. Take home assignment

or

2. Answer programming questions on an whiteboard in front of engineers


I only do #2. It's not so much about actually solving the problem, which is quite easy and you should be able to do it w/in 15 minutes, but more about how you communicate your solution, thought process, and how about conduct yourself when you're stuck. You'd be surprise at how many time I get people who say they have 10-15 years of experience who can't reverse a string. Then I also have some people who reach for the most complex solution for the simplest problem (using recursion to reverse a string).

The FizzBuzz problem use to be a common test. It too is flawed.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/...

Submitted by Coronita on June 16, 2021 - 9:19pm.

I was hoping to use my lessons in trying to buy a rental properties these days and apply it to trying to hire someone and was trying to explain with an analogy to my senior execs the concept of how a bidding war works...But they didn't listen.

So we wanted to make an offer to a great junior engineer in the mid-west 2 years experience, remote worker. He mentioned he had a few additional interviews through the end of the week, so I'm like great, I respect that, we'll give you an offer now to think about it, and then let us know if you are interested in pursuing it further next week. Current comp including stock grant around 95k so I figure he'll be getting offers around $100k-118k, so I figure let's go on the high end at $118k and see how it shakes out, figuring we'll probably need to do a $10k signon bonus and we'll save that once we get the other offers in.

But, no...Exec felt, well let's go high right now, and maybe he'll accept the offer without taking anything else. I'm like, come on...Even if we put a 48 hour time limit on the offer, what's to prevent him from accepting our offer, continuing interviewing, and then take our offer, ask someone else to beat it, and then rescind our offer? Because that's what I would do in this market. So no point in trying to put your highest offer in now, without waiting to see what else comes back...

See, it's very similar to trying to buy a house right now. You want to put in a offer just high enough to make it to the short list of the selected people they will give a counter offer to. But you don't want to go too high because otherwise your high price will end up being the floor for the counter offer that goes out, and you're going to end up bidding against your own price you set.

Of course, they didn't listen. Offer went out at $118k with a $10k sign on bonus... i bet it's going to be cross shopped with the other companies he's interviewing for, and after its' done, we're going to need increase the sign on bonus to $20k.

2 years of solid mobile experience....That's how much it's costing...

The other funny part is, there's a bunch of people who aren't really mobile software engineers trying to pass themselves off as one. They basically go attend some 6 month crash course at some for profit university, and claim they are a mobile engineer.
It doesn't work with my company and my team, but I'm pretty confident they can find a job with some company that is desperate and isn't as picky...and would pay roughly the same. Jokes on the engineers spent 4-6 years in a real college getting a BS/MS engineering degree...

It's the 2000's all over again.

Submitted by Coronita on June 16, 2021 - 9:56pm.

...And WTF is going on...It's the 21st century...Despite a proliferation of Asian software engineers in the industry... Why is the c-level, so, for the lack of the better word...white..

Submitted by an on June 16, 2021 - 10:20pm.

Coronita wrote:
...And WTF is going on...It's the 21st century...Despite a proliferation of Asian software engineers in the industry... Why is the c-level, so, for the lack of the better word...white..

Asians are white

Submitted by utcsox on June 16, 2021 - 10:28pm.

Coronita wrote:
I was hoping to use my lessons in trying to buy a rental properties these days and apply it to trying to hire someone and was trying to explain with an analogy to my senior execs the concept of how a bidding war works...But they didn't listen.

So we wanted to make an offer to a great junior engineer in the mid-west 2 years experience, remote worker. He mentioned he had a few additional interviews through the end of the week, so I'm like great, I respect that, we'll give you an offer now to think about it, and then let us know if you are interested in pursuing it further next week. Current comp including stock grant around 95k so I figure he'll be getting offers around $100k-118k, so I figure let's go on the high end at $118k and see how it shakes out, figuring we'll probably need to do a $10k signon bonus and we'll save that once we get the other offers in.

But, no...Exec felt, well let's go high right now, and maybe he'll accept the offer without taking anything else. I'm like, come on...Even if we put a 48 hour time limit on the offer, what's to prevent him from accepting our offer, continuing interviewing, and then take our offer, ask someone else to beat it, and then rescind our offer? Because that's what I would do in this market. So no point in trying to put your highest offer in now, without waiting to see what else comes back...

See, it's very similar to trying to buy a house right now. You want to put in a offer just high enough to make it to the short list of the selected people they will give a counter offer to. But you don't want to go too high because otherwise your high price will end up being the floor for the counter offer that goes out, and you're going to end up bidding against your own price you set.

Of course, they didn't listen. Offer went out at $118k with a $10k sign on bonus... i bet it's going to be cross shopped with the other companies he's interviewing for, and after its' done, we're going to need increase the sign on bonus to $20k.

2 years of solid mobile experience....That's how much it's costing...

The other funny part is, there's a bunch of people who aren't really mobile software engineers trying to pass themselves off as one. They basically go attend some 6 month crash course at some for profit university, and claim they are a mobile engineer.
It doesn't work with my company and my team, but I'm pretty confident they can find a job with some company that is desperate and isn't as picky...and would pay roughly the same. Jokes on the engineers spent 4-6 years in a real college getting a BS/MS engineering degree...

It's the 2000's all over again.

Very interesting. Please let us know whether the junior engineer accept the offer from your company.

Submitted by an on June 17, 2021 - 9:12am.

XBoxBoy wrote:

I don't find that surprising. I can't say in my 35 years of working as a programmer I've ever had to reverse a string.

While I don't know the details of the questions an asks or the tests Coronita sends home, I'd point out that in general tests and their questions turn out to be horrible predictors of programmer ability. Personally, I try to go with interview questions like, "Tell me about the toughest bug you ever had to solve? How did you go about solving it?" or, "What was the biggest challenge you faced working at your last job?" or "Of all the people you've worked with who was the person you learned the most from, and what did you learn?"

If I want to know about thought processes I often simply ask, "When asked to implement a new feature, what process do you like to follow?" (And btw, that last question is a trick question. The candidate who answers with the importance of fully designing before beginning to code is someone who likes to overdesign their stuff.)

Lastly, I like to see if a candidate can tell me a story, or a step by step procedure. They might have already told me a story with my earlier questions. And the reason that I think that's important is that despite all the people that say "programming is math" I've found it is more like writing a novel. You have a story (what the program does) you have characters (objects in code) that must interact (ahh, the code that binds it all together) and good code is a process of constant editing, editing and more editing.

The bottom line to me isn't whether the candidate has the ability to do some simple coding, (or more often than not, if they've reviewed a bunch of questions on sites that list the questions likely found on a programming exam) the question is can they contribute to a project with thousands of lines of code without creating a tangled mess. So, I try to focus my questions on figuring out how they'll do with that.

Just my two cents though...


That is the exact point. It's not about actually solving the problem but being able to communicate your solution, thought process, or explain to someone what/why you're stuck. If you're stuck, then talk through with me what were you thinking that got you to the point where you're stuck. I'm sure in your 35 years of working as a programmer, you've experienced a problem where you're stuck, and you need help or pair with someone to solve a tough problem that you've never seen/experience before.

The last thing I want is someone to join my team that when they're stuck, they'll stay stuck for days/weeks and not ask for help.

BTW, this is not the only question, but one among many others.

Submitted by svelte on June 17, 2021 - 7:51pm.

To me, an immediate red flag is a candidate who has 10 years of work history, 1-2 years at each company. That tells me there is a problem of some sort...I mean once or twice could be a bad fit but a half dozen times of that, it's the employee not the companies.

I had a problem child handed over to me awhile back as a last resort. I too failed and turning this person around and they left the company. While looking through their file, I found the resume this person gave us when we interviewed them. Sure enough, 10 years and not more than 1.5 years at any place. I asked the folks who hired the employee - didn't you notice this? Why the f did we bring this person aboard? They just shrugged and handed their mistake off to me to handle.

And I agree with conversation above. A wise mentor a long time ago said the point of an interview is not whether the person knows the exact technical skills we need...if they are worth their salt they can pick that up quickly as long as they have the basics in our technology field. What is more important is their thought process, their ability to get along with others and their ability to stick with something...that's why a degree is important for an entry level person - shows they can stick with something for four or more years.

Submitted by Coronita on June 17, 2021 - 8:34pm.

svelte wrote:
To me, an immediate red flag is a candidate who has 10 years of work history, 1-2 years at each company. That tells me there is a problem of some sort...I mean once or twice could be a bad fit but a half dozen times of that, it's the employee not the companies.

I had a problem child handed over to me awhile back as a last resort. I too failed and turning this person around and they left the company. While looking through their file, I found the resume this person gave us when we interviewed them. Sure enough, 10 years and not more than 1.5 years at any place. I asked the folks who hired the employee - didn't you notice this? Why the f did we bring this person aboard? They just shrugged and handed their mistake off to me to handle.

And I agree with conversation above. A wise mentor a long time ago said the point of an interview is not whether the person knows the exact technical skills we need...if they are worth their salt they can pick that up quickly as long as they have the basics in our technology field. What is more important is their thought process, their ability to get along with others and their ability to stick with something...that's why a degree is important for an entry level person - shows they can stick with something for four or more years.

i actually disagree with that. thats actually the mentality of some san diego companies but not generally how it works overall. Fact is modern day tech companies get sold, acquired, run out of money all the time. Its not the engineers fault. and often times some people, particularly asian male, get pigeon holed into a role and never have the opportunity to move up...the entire white frat boy club...so for some people the choice is simple. you could wait 5-6-7 years hoping youll get your turn by merit working hard...meanwhile watching a white fratboy who likes to talk a lot about football but nevertheless less qualified than you, bloviate his way around and move up more quicker and eventually ends up your boss keeps you as
worker bee....or you quit for the next company that offers you a better position...seems like it's a no brainer...i see a lot of my asian colleagues still Software Engineer 3 after so many years, no surprise there.

i certainly am glad I moved around enough. When Avago acquired Broadcom and chopped it up, it was a great monetary pay day of a few hundred thousand ever for worker bees... but it was sucky for a lot of engineers that were laidoff to make the stock go up, especially when maby of them were unemployed for quite some time because they did leave earlier before everyone else was looking for a job. especially when these layoffs do happen, its usually thr white frat boy c-suite that get to keep their jobs and their stock options, while they lay off the asian worker bees they never promoted because after all, they are the decision makers .....

and when a startup skipped a 401k contribution that was already withheld from your paycheck, you also know its time to get out of there because the company is lying and not tellng you they are running out of money...

theres the opposite problem.. a lot of Qualcomm lifers stayed st the company for like 20+years... and when they got laidoff they were unemployable elsewhere because they never kept current with the rest of the industry.

i think one thing for certain, this industry is large enough that if company X doesnt like you for some subjective random reason, thats fine.. theres company y z a b c that doesnt care and have some other subjective reason not to like someone else as long as you are good.

Submitted by deadzone on June 17, 2021 - 9:31pm.

No, that is a huge red flag anyone with like 5-10 different positions within 10 year period. In most cases it points to a problem employee. And on top of that, if you only spend a year at a tech job you're not there long enough to become an expert at anything or to really accomplish much.

Also, why all the white hatred? For tech industry engineering jobs, Asian males are the dominant majority in my experience. I'm not feeling any sympathy for that demographic.

Submitted by an on June 17, 2021 - 10:04pm.

So glad I never had to deal with people like svelte and deadzone earlier in my career while interviewing.

Submitted by Coronita on June 18, 2021 - 12:58am.

deadzone wrote:
No, that is a huge red flag anyone with like 5-10 different positions within 10 year period. In most cases it points to a problem employee. And on top of that, if you only spend a year at a tech job you're not there long enough to become an expert at anything or to really accomplish much.

Also, why all the white hatred? For tech industry engineering jobs, Asian males are the dominant majority in my experience. I'm not feeling any sympathy for that demographic.

You misunderstood what I was saying. There's no "white hatred".Don't know Why you would say that.

I'm just pointing out the "unconscious biases" that regularly occupies C-level mindsets at US companies. It's not as big a problem at engineer/technical levels since at the pure technical levels, most engineers could care less about race, gender, etc etc...everyone is a geek, everyone is equal.

I'm talking about management positions, like Directors and above. Because like I said, once you step slightly out of the realm of pure technical levels, things get a lot more subjective, and it becomes a lot more like a frat house. Take my current company. I'm the only asian that's director or higher. We have about 18 directors and VP, and about 500 employees, maybe 350 of them engineers, a lot asian,latino,indian, african american. Besides me, there's maybe 1 director that is african american. Why is that? "unconscious bias".

You see often times, especially in leadership positions, whether you are "qualified" to do that job has a lot less to do with whether you can actually do the job, but more to do with "how well you fit in with the good ole boys" in the most subjective ways that has no relevance to the job function.

Take a manager position. In many situations people get rejected on the grounds of a "not fit" test..For example a predominantly white "frattish" leadership team that all think the same and always talks about say football, make their hiring decisions based on the subjective biases of liking people who are like them and like football and conversations about football....this sort of bias happens all the time, and leads to a disproportionate hiring disadvantage for people that dont fit with this frattish persona who otherwise would qualify for that position on skill. People who often dont "fit" into this model are minorities and women...I also like to specifically call out asian men too, because a lot of people don't consider asian men as minorities by the number of engineers there are, and therefore erroneously conclude that there is no discrimination and unconscious biases that occurs because "just look at how asian engineers there are"... But that is simply not true..The fact is that while there are many Asians that are engineers IE "grunt workers", there are disproportionately very few Asian managers or c-level leaders despite the fact that there are a large number of Asian engineers. And that is the crux of why some of us more vocal Asians are pointing out. In a pool of a large number of Asian engineers why are there so few leaders versus say whites?

But regardless, what does this mean for Asians who are highly motivated, career focused, who want to attain some larger career aspirations instead of remaining at a cushy job, collect a 2-3% raise each year, keep doing the same thing over and over again....Well, it means you're really at a disadvantage and you really have to be a lot more proactive about seeking better opportunities. In general, leadership opportunities aren't simple things you sit around on your ass and wait for someone to give it to you. And in a lot of companies if you're minority, it will be a long time before you have that opportunity. A good indication is how diverse is the executive leadership team and how long has it been that way? If the c-suite is all white or close to all white. Forget it... you could be waiting until hell freezes over. For the benefit of your career aspirations, you're better of using your current experience and knowledge to find a company willing to look past the "frat boy" fit test and hire you into a position based on your qualifications versus some arbitrary biases. There are companies that aren't run with a frat boy mentality, so you're be better aligned to those opportunities there.

So again, I didnt say i hate white people, or even think EVERY company is run like a frat house. But there are plenty that are, and while that might not matter when you're just engineer, but anything beyond that, you're gonna have to do something about it to break this glass ceiling created by unconscious biases.

Also, I think you misunderstood that I'm not lookingf or sympathy or complaining this happens..I look forward to breaking the glass ceilings each and every time. Im just merely pointing out from a career management perspective there are a lot of reasons why people move around. Some of us arent content just sitting around collecting a paycheck, complacent at a routine job, want to be challenged to do more, or to lead, or to do something bigger..and we arent afraid to take on new challenges and new opportunities that otherwise wouldn't have been given to us if we just stayed at the same job expecting it to be handed to us, which is even less likely if we happen to be working at a company with a frat boy leadership structure...And given that despite whatever obstacles unconscious biases that might exist, it hasnt precluded me for going where i wanted to go.

As far as the shorter work experience being an obstacle to employment. Not really. Remember, I mentioned this in another thread. Usually it's the recruiters of the company that are reaching out on LinkedIn trying to poach employees. And when I do interview with the VP or director, it's seldom that my work history ever comes up as an issue. In fact, most of them have a jumpy resume too, if not worse.

Submitted by svelte on June 18, 2021 - 6:37am.

an wrote:
So glad I never had to deal with people like svelte and deadzone earlier in my career while interviewing.

Sounds as if you're a jumper. I wouldn't want to train you up just to have you jump to another position a year later. That would be frustrating!

I get that there are exceptions, those who worked for companies that folded, etc. If there are good reasons for the jumps, I would certainly listen - and then I would verify those reasons were true. But the truth is, I would probably never even arrange the interview once I glanced at the resume...so the probability you would have had to deal with folks like me is low to begin with.

Submitted by Coronita on June 18, 2021 - 8:35am.

Update. Counter offers came in. I was right. Had to add on top of what we originally offered by about $5k. Oh well, not my problem.

Offer was accepted as of this morning.

Don't mess with Texas.

Submitted by Coronita on June 18, 2021 - 8:55am.

svelte wrote:
an wrote:
So glad I never had to deal with people like svelte and deadzone earlier in my career while interviewing.

Sounds as if you're a jumper. I wouldn't want to train you up just to have you jump to another position a year later. That would be frustrating!

I get that there are exceptions, those who worked for companies that folded, etc. If there are good reasons for the jumps, I would certainly listen - and then I would verify those reasons were true. But the truth is, I would probably never even arrange the interview once I glanced at the resume...so the probability you would have had to deal with folks like me is low to begin with.

I really don't think it matters. Just like the real estate market, there's a buyer for every house at various price points. And a competitive market where there's a tight supply, those difference are even of less concern. So yes, while you and other companies might not be interested in hiring AN. That's ok. There's plenty of other companies that would hire AN and not hire candidates that might be a better fit for your company's philosophy or style.

Also, quite honestly, in these day and age of mobile software. There's very little that a company needs to do to "train" someone on the basic principles and architectures of doing a good app..All that information is already available out there on the internet in an open way, and it's just a matter of spending the time to do a challenge project, whether it's within the structures of a corporation or yourself... (with the exception of maybe apple, which you need to pay $99/year for a developer account, but still the financial bar is pretty low to join that program) So it's quite common that a fresh college grad already has the basic tools he/she/they need to be a decent mobile engineer. Mobile phone for development + $99/year developer membership + computer to run IDE (for IOS/XCode, that means a Mac which you can do on a Mac Mini if you're cheap).. OR...if you're really cheap, do it on a Hacintosh, if you don't plan on actually submitting the app to the app store (because your Hacintosh would violate all Apple EULA agreements..)

A lot of the "training" that a company needs to provide is about the specific business logic specific to the company's business/IP... That knowledge doesn't exactly carry over to the next job because depending on what that next job could be, the app he/she is working on might have nothing to do with the previous one and is only useful from within the boundaries of the previous company. My engineers ding candidates who know nothing about coroutines and other prominent async programming methodologies, for instance, because they don't want to bother spending time teaching them about it. It's all documented and all out there in the open and anyone worth their salt can learn about it themselves. They expect anyone coming in to already know that. And that usually also comes out in the take home assignment whether they get it or not. that's what separates from the ones that really get it from, the fakers that take a 6 month crash course at a for-profit college like "Full Sail University" or "DeVry" or "University of Phoenix" to pad their resume, but have no idea what they are doing.

Case in point. The product I was in charge of at my last company has very little to do with the products I'm in charge of now. There was no carryover of knowledge I learned about search tech at my previous company to what my current company is working on.

Submitted by deadzone on June 18, 2021 - 9:08am.

Coronita wrote:
deadzone wrote:
No, that is a huge red flag anyone with like 5-10 different positions within 10 year period. In most cases it points to a problem employee. And on top of that, if you only spend a year at a tech job you're not there long enough to become an expert at anything or to really accomplish much.

Also, why all the white hatred? For tech industry engineering jobs, Asian males are the dominant majority in my experience. I'm not feeling any sympathy for that demographic.

You misunderstood what I was saying. There's no "white hatred".Don't know Why you would say that.

I'm just pointing out the "unconscious biases" that regularly occupies C-level mindsets at US companies. It's not as big a problem at engineer/technical levels since at the pure technical levels, most engineers could care less about race, gender, etc etc...everyone is a geek, everyone is equal.

I'm talking about management positions, like Directors and above. Because like I said, once you step slightly out of the realm of pure technical levels, things get a lot more subjective, and it becomes a lot more like a frat house. Take my current company. I'm the only asian that's director or higher. We have about 18 directors and VP, and about 500 employees, maybe 350 of them engineers, a lot asian,latino,indian, african american. Besides me, there's maybe 1 director that is african american. Why is that? "unconscious bias".

You see often times, especially in leadership positions, whether you are "qualified" to do that job has a lot less to do with whether you can actually do the job, but more to do with "how well you fit in with the good ole boys" in the most subjective ways that has no relevance to the job function.

Take a manager position. In many situations people get rejected on the grounds of a "not fit" test..For example a predominantly white "frattish" leadership team that all think the same and always talks about say football, make their hiring decisions based on the subjective biases of liking people who are like them and like football and conversations about football....this sort of bias happens all the time, and leads to a disproportionate hiring disadvantage for people that dont fit with this frattish persona who otherwise would qualify for that position on skill. People who often dont "fit" into this model are minorities and women...I also like to specifically call out asian men too, because a lot of people don't consider asian men as minorities by the number of engineers there are, and therefore erroneously conclude that there is no discrimination and unconscious biases that occurs because "just look at how asian engineers there are"... But that is simply not true..The fact is that while there are many Asians that are engineers IE "grunt workers", there are disproportionately very few Asian managers or c-level leaders despite the fact that there are a large number of Asian engineers. And that is the crux of why some of us more vocal Asians are pointing out. In a pool of a large number of Asian engineers why are there so few leaders versus say whites?

But regardless, what does this mean for Asians who are highly motivated, career focused, who want to attain some larger career aspirations instead of remaining at a cushy job, collect a 2-3% raise each year, keep doing the same thing over and over again....Well, it means you're really at a disadvantage and you really have to be a lot more proactive about seeking better opportunities. In general, leadership opportunities aren't simple things you sit around on your ass and wait for someone to give it to you. And in a lot of companies if you're minority, it will be a long time before you have that opportunity. A good indication is how diverse is the executive leadership team and how long has it been that way? If the c-suite is all white or close to all white. Forget it... you could be waiting until hell freezes over. For the benefit of your career aspirations, you're better of using your current experience and knowledge to find a company willing to look past the "frat boy" fit test and hire you into a position based on your qualifications versus some arbitrary biases. There are companies that aren't run with a frat boy mentality, so you're be better aligned to those opportunities there.

So again, I didnt say i hate white people, or even think EVERY company is run like a frat house. But there are plenty that are, and while that might not matter when you're just engineer, but anything beyond that, you're gonna have to do something about it to break this glass ceiling created by unconscious biases.

Also, I think you misunderstood that I'm not lookingf or sympathy or complaining this happens..I look forward to breaking the glass ceilings each and every time. Im just merely pointing out from a career management perspective there are a lot of reasons why people move around. Some of us arent content just sitting around collecting a paycheck, complacent at a routine job, want to be challenged to do more, or to lead, or to do something bigger..and we arent afraid to take on new challenges and new opportunities that otherwise wouldn't have been given to us if we just stayed at the same job expecting it to be handed to us, which is even less likely if we happen to be working at a company with a frat boy leadership structure...And given that despite whatever obstacles unconscious biases that might exist, it hasnt precluded me for going where i wanted to go.

As far as the shorter work experience being an obstacle to employment. Not really. Remember, I mentioned this in another thread. Usually it's the recruiters of the company that are reaching out on LinkedIn trying to poach employees. And when I do interview with the VP or director, it's seldom that my work history ever comes up as an issue. In fact, most of them have a jumpy resume too, if not worse.

For sure there is somewhat of an old boy network in corporate America. The most obvious example would be Jews running the banking industry. But for Hi-tech, I don't think it is as bad. Particularly for Silicon Valley I'm pretty sure there is a good representation of Asian/Indian at Executive level. But complaining about only 1 African American in a Hi Tech company is not genuine. African Americans make up a very small percentage of Engineering and Computer Science graduates and thus are not well represented at Tech companies for that reason. The underrepresentation of Asians at Executive level for Tech companies is for a variety of reasons. Unconscious bias may be one factor.

Submitted by Coronita on June 18, 2021 - 9:22am.

deadzone wrote:
...But for Hi-tech, I don't think it is as bad. Particularly for Silicon Valley I'm pretty sure there is a good representation of Asian/Indian at Executive level. But complaining about only 1 African American in a Hi Tech company is not genuine. African Americans make up a very small percentage of Engineering and Computer Science graduates and thus are not well represented at Tech companies for that reason. The underrepresentation of Asians at Executive level for Tech companies is for a variety of reasons. Unconscious bias may be one factor.

True for Silicon Valley tech companies, because Silicon Valley companies tend to be much more at the cutting edge of the industry, and as such, much more open minded about qualifications, background, etc. And like I said, Bay Area companies tend not to care about someone that been around a few places if the motivation to move was ever increasing responsibilities... Again, back to my original point.

I was specifically referring to old school companies that have an old school style of management, old school style of hiring, and old school style of judging people's credentials.....and those companies tend to be the older, larger companies here in San Diego...I would also venture to say, those companies tend all to have much lower total compensation packages that the rest of the industry...Defense contractors and government tech jobs and tech jobs in the public sector come to mind... I guess because they found their ideal employees who are comfortable staying there for a long and don't mind that 2-3% annual raises and don't mind working on projects that aren't at the edge of of what is new and hot. again, nothing wrong with that. Just different strokes for different folks.

Submitted by an on June 18, 2021 - 9:56am.

You nailed it Coronita. Different strokes for different folks. As long as you're a match with the company that employ you, then you stay. If you're not, some would still stay but complain while I rather leave and find a company that's more in line w/ me.

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