Gov't giving you $4500 to trade in your old car,

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Submitted by jimmyle on June 19, 2009 - 6:34am

More signs of waste--I think this is more giveaways to UAW in addition to the billions we already did to make unwanted products with borrowed money. I can understand if the government gives $1000 to buy the Hybrid Fusion but any car or truck with 22 mpg or better?

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Car shoppers could take advantage of government incentives worth up to $4,500 this summer to send their old gas guzzler to the scrap heap in favor of a more fuel-efficient new vehicle.

President Barack Obama is expected to sign into law the "cash for clunkers" program, which was approved by the Senate on Thursday. For owners of low-mileage models such as the 1994 Ford Bronco, 1998 Nissan Pathfinder or the 1995 Chevrolet Blazer, the plan could give them a reason to visit their local car dealer during an economic downturn.....

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Consumers-...

Submitted by Coronita on June 19, 2009 - 8:49am.

One thing. The way it is crafted, you cannot simply go buy a clunker right now and use it to get the credit. Car has to be registered in your name for I think 120days.... which I think if you bought a clunker today, 120 days would put you after when this bill would end i think.

BUT, you aren't obligated to buy a GM/Ford/Chrysler, so it's not exactly a UAW bailout per se.

What it is a bailout for though is for folks that have those gas guzzler truck/suvs in recent times versus fuel efficient cars....

Oh hell, a $4500 tax credit for any new car purchase would have been fine with me. Call it a bill to stimulate the auto industry.

Submitted by PadreBrian on June 19, 2009 - 9:22am.

They should have tried this BEFORE giving them loans.

Submitted by ibjames on June 19, 2009 - 9:35am.

PadreBrian wrote:
They should have tried this BEFORE giving them loans.

Why would they do that!? That would make sense?!?

Submitted by Coronita on June 19, 2009 - 10:28am.

It wouldn't have made one difference imho.

Hello auto industry...We're in the a recession.

A good portion of people that use to buy cars can't afford to buy a car outright. They buy on credit/lease, and live paycheck to paycheck (literally and figuratively speaking)....It works when credit is easy and there's a paycheck coming in....Doesn't work so well when credit is tighter and doesn't work so well if the paycheck goes awol...Definitely doesn't go well when you have a combo of the two....

Having a new car is a "nice to have", not a necessity.

That's the problem with the auto industry right now. Too many companies still producing too many cars for too few of people who are able and willing to buy a new car....Kinda like the glut of homes our RE builders are facing. Except cars usually have some sort of brand loyalty going on.

There's no point in throwing more money at the problem to produce more cars if the demand isn't there.

Submitted by Zeitgeist on June 19, 2009 - 10:53am.

Crushing the cars rather than reselling them is an interesting part of the equation. Old cars are being eliminated from the car gene pool. Older cars can be worked on at home because many of them do not have computers. Maybe this is being done not just to stimulate the economy or clean up the environment, but to get rid of things without computer chips in them. What did you do with that tinfoil TG? What say you Partypup?

Submitted by SanDiegoDave on July 24, 2009 - 11:20am.

Bumping this one up and asking a new question.

The government launched the program today. In typical government project planning and display of incompetence, the computer system for it crashed.

But my question revolves around this "scrap value" of the trade-in vehicles. The program states that the dealer must give you a "reasonable estimate" of the scrap value of your car.

Well, I wasn't born yesterday and there is no way I'm walking into a dealer without some independent knowledge of what my vehicle's scrap value is.

Does anyone know where to find this info? Google search only turn up places that offer to pick up your "junker" and give you cash. My car is not a junker. But it has poor mileage and thus qualifies for the cash-for-clunkers program. I just need to know how much the scrap is worth without letting the dealer pull a bullsh1t number out of thin air.

Submitted by Coronita on July 24, 2009 - 11:36am.

SanDiegoDave wrote:
Bumping this one up and asking a new question.

The government launched the program today. In typical government project planning and display of incompetence, the computer system for it crashed.

But my question revolves around this "scrap value" of the trade-in vehicles. The program states that the dealer must give you a "reasonable estimate" of the scrap value of your car.

Well, I wasn't born yesterday and there is no way I'm walking into a dealer without some independent knowledge of what my vehicle's scrap value is.

Does anyone know where to find this info? Google search only turn up places that offer to pick up your "junker" and give you cash. My car is not a junker. But it has poor mileage and thus qualifies for the cash-for-clunkers program. I just need to know how much the scrap is worth without letting the dealer pull a bullsh1t number out of thin air.

Make, model, year?

You are so lucky to be able to take advantage of this. Unfortunately, you can't just go buy a clunker and get the credit. You must have owned the car for at least 1 year,registered,insured,etc.

Submitted by Rt.66 on July 24, 2009 - 11:43am.

What is funny about this is that our Gov. forced thousands of GM and Chrysler dealerships to close, leaving many towns with little domestic choices and leaving foreign makers to control the market in those areas.

Now our Gov. offers $4500 of our tax dollars to anyone willing to trade in a clunker with no domestic stipulation, so many buyers will choose Foreign. So the profits from US tax payer subsidized sales will go to other countries. Wonderful. Tack that onto the $500 billion in bailout dollars that already went to foreign banks.

Even worse is that you can buy a car that was not even assembled in the US and still get a $4500 gift, courtesy of US tax payer. Our tax dollars supporting the jobs, GDP, healthcare and schools of other countries? WTF??? This is trade diplomacy or trade charity at its worst. We are screwed!

“The new vehicle can be U.S. or foreign-built and must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of less than $45,000.”

Submitted by Coronita on July 24, 2009 - 2:21pm.

It gets even bettter....BMW is matching the $4500 credit rebate...Yup that's right...If I read that right, you can save up to $9000 off a 335 diesel....

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/f...

Also, supposedly there is $900 tax credit too on top of that.

Hmmm...That's not such a bad option.

Also, you might end up getting more than $4500 from the gov...

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/24/...

"Customers are responsible for bringing in an old "clunker" that gets, at most, 18 mpg (thanks, charities) and buy a new vehicle with better mpg. It looks like it might be possible to get more than $4,500 for your trade-in, because any scrap value that the trade-in has can be added to the rebate."

Submitted by enron_by_the_sea on July 24, 2009 - 2:19pm.

Rt.66 wrote:
What is funny about this is that our Gov. forced thousands of GM and Chrysler dealerships to close, leaving many towns with little domestic choices and leaving foreign makers to control the market in those areas.

Now our Gov. offers $4500 of our tax dollars to anyone willing to trade in a clunker with no domestic stipulation, so many buyers will choose Foreign. So the profits from US tax payer subsidized sales will go to other countries. Wonderful. Tack that onto the $500 billion in bailout dollars that already went to foreign banks.

Even worse is that you can buy a car that was not even assembled in the US and still get a $4500 gift, courtesy of US tax payer. Our tax dollars supporting the jobs, GDP, healthcare and schools of other countries? WTF??? This is trade diplomacy or trade charity at its worst. We are screwed!

“The new vehicle can be U.S. or foreign-built and must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of less than $45,000.”

Great! I was just waiting for this. Let the firefight begin.

Submitted by Coronita on July 24, 2009 - 2:40pm.

enron_by_the_sea wrote:
Rt.66 wrote:
What is funny about this is that our Gov. forced thousands of GM and Chrysler dealerships to close, leaving many towns with little domestic choices and leaving foreign makers to control the market in those areas.

Now our Gov. offers $4500 of our tax dollars to anyone willing to trade in a clunker with no domestic stipulation, so many buyers will choose Foreign. So the profits from US tax payer subsidized sales will go to other countries. Wonderful. Tack that onto the $500 billion in bailout dollars that already went to foreign banks.

Even worse is that you can buy a car that was not even assembled in the US and still get a $4500 gift, courtesy of US tax payer. Our tax dollars supporting the jobs, GDP, healthcare and schools of other countries? WTF??? This is trade diplomacy or trade charity at its worst. We are screwed!

“The new vehicle can be U.S. or foreign-built and must have a manufacturer's suggested retail price of less than $45,000.”

Great! I was just waiting for this. Let the firefight begin.

No worries. I bet if you posted a poll here, you'll find out far fewer people can take advantage of the $4500 tax credit than others.

Edit never mind comment about scrap value... I think it's measured per weight..

http://scrapmetalpricesandauctions.com/c...

Submitted by paramount on July 24, 2009 - 9:37pm.

I have a feeling this program will work about as well as the various mortgage modification programs that O rolled out.

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 24, 2009 - 10:16pm.

Chrysler doubles cash-for-clunkers/Free AK-47 with new car

http://www.examiner.com/x-9227-Seattle-A...

...Unfortunately for gun lovers, neither Chrysler nor the Federal Government is handing out assault rifles to stimulate car sales. But Mark Muller, owner of Max Motors in Butler, Missouri thinks it’s a great idea.

"We're just not going to give people an AK-47 gun. Felons buy cars, too,” he said. “What we are going to do is we're going to give them a voucher where they can go to their local gun dealer, or we have local gun dealers we would strongly recommend where they can buy a gun and go through the proper background checks so the guns wind up in the right hands."

As for the safety of Max Motors:

"That way it separates you from anything bad that could happen," Muller said. "We'll put it in the hands of professionals who do this every day."

Buffering the financial security of the deal, this isn’t the first time Muller gave away gun vouchers in an attempt to sell more cars, and it’s not the first time it worked.

"Last year we gave away a free handgun with the purchase of any vehicle, and it went over very well. It spiked our web traffic and we sold, we estimate, 35 extra cars during the promotion than we normally would have, and this year we're trying to sell an extra 100 cars more than we normally would," Muller said.

The gun vouchers are set to be given away during the month of August. I haven’t looked into the actual possibilities yet, but Max Motors sells new Chryslers, Dodges and Jeeps…nine grand off a new Chrysler and a free AK-47 would be one hell of a deal.

Submitted by briansd1 on July 25, 2009 - 12:01am.

Just an indirect giveaway to the dealers and car companies. And another way to get Americans into debt.

Try negotiating a cash deal on a car and once the price is agree upon, tell them what you want to turn in your old clunker and get $4,500 + $4,500 ($9,000) off the price of the purchase.

They won't sell the car to you. They'll come up with some lame excuse that, unfortunately, that one unique car has been sold by the manager already (or some excuse like that).

Submitted by ralphfurley on July 25, 2009 - 7:03am.

flu wrote:

No worries. I bet if you posted a poll here, you'll find out far fewer people can take advantage of the $4500 tax credit than others.

I was curious about this too. Does anyone actually have a car that qualifies for the "cash for clunkers" program?

I have a real beater out on the street right now, but it gets (supposedly) a combined 21mpg. Over the 18mpg limit. Plus the car has to be no older than 25 years. The LA Times ran a story that said most of the cars that qualify, get better trade-in value than the voucher will give. Anyone even know someone who is taking advantage of this deal?

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 25, 2009 - 10:25am.

Does anyone actually have a car that qualifies for the "cash for clunkers" program?

I traded in a Buick Roadmaster for Pontiac Vibe and paid with a check. (comfortable four figures).

Thought of trading a Ford Windstar for a Chevy HHR, but the minivan is still very good and we just can't crush it. Economically feasible; Just feel unethical.

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 25, 2009 - 10:26am.

They'll come up with some lame excuse

That's when you drop a subtle hint that you have a AK-47 for trade in too. They will sell you a truck pronto!

Never underestimate the subliminal power of the second amendment!

Submitted by Coronita on July 25, 2009 - 10:39am.

sorry, I started a poll yesterday, screwed it up, and then had to run and do something else. Let me put it up again. I think the cash for clunker isn't really going to help most people, but let's see.

Submitted by paramount on July 25, 2009 - 11:19am.

briansd1 wrote:
Just an indirect giveaway to the dealers and car companies. And another way to get Americans into debt.

Try negotiating a cash deal on a car and once the price is agree upon, tell them what you want to turn in your old clunker and get $4,500 + $4,500 ($9,000) off the price of the purchase.

They won't sell the car to you. They'll come up with some lame excuse that, unfortunately, that one unique car has been sold by the manager already (or some excuse like that).

I agree 100%.

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 25, 2009 - 11:31am.

briansd & paramount:

Whether you buy a car under the program or not, one thing I can tell you from my recent car buying experience: The dealers of Big 3 are really humble. The bankruptcy (of GM & Chrysler), dealers closing down and the severity of recession have convinced them that their best days are over and they may not be in the business for long. You can sense a huge change in their attitude if you go there to buy a car.

Of course, you should do your homework and research prices etc., The dealer is not interested in you saving a lot of money; but the arrogance is definitely gone. Somewhat similar with realtors too.

Submitted by Coronita on July 25, 2009 - 1:10pm.

paramount wrote:
briansd1 wrote:
Just an indirect giveaway to the dealers and car companies. And another way to get Americans into debt.

Try negotiating a cash deal on a car and once the price is agree upon, tell them what you want to turn in your old clunker and get $4,500 + $4,500 ($9,000) off the price of the purchase.

They won't sell the car to you. They'll come up with some lame excuse that, unfortunately, that one unique car has been sold by the manager already (or some excuse like that).

I agree 100%.

I disagree with that...First, the $4500 credit from the government is just that. It's money from the fed.....They don't care how you pay for $X...So long as you pay for $X. You could come up with $X or $X-4500 and let the 4500 come from the fed, they don't care....We, taxpayers are footing this subsidy.

Second, the other $4500 credit is a rebate that some (not all) manufacturers are offering...There is no scam in this. Now, if you don't negotiate well, you probably won't see the entire $4500...But i can tell, you it's real. Just for kicks, I'm talking to some BMW dealers to see how low they're willing to sell a 335d, and they are definitely discounting them (I won't say how much). It only applies to the 335d, because americans for some reason don't like diesels.

Submitted by briansd1 on July 25, 2009 - 1:57pm.

flu, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

But if what you say is true, then you could negotiate a cash deal for say $30,000.

Then when you turn in your clunker, you'll get an additional $4,500 federal rebate + $4,500 manufacturer incentive. Your net cost would be $21,000.

BTW, is tax before rebate or after rebate?

I have a feeling the full $4,500 is not going to the consumer. The dealers get $4,500 from the Feds but if they don't pass is all along, then they are double dipping. Not only are the taxpayers subsidizing their sales but we are also subsidizing their profit margins.

Remember, most car buyers don't buy with cash. They buy on the monthly payments they can afford and that's what the sales tactics are based upon.

When shopping for cars, I have fun with the sales people. They keep on asking me how much I want to pay each month and I keep on asking them the net price of the car.

If I were a buyer, I would rather apply for the cash rebate on my own.

Submitted by Coronita on July 25, 2009 - 2:51pm.

briansd1 wrote:
flu, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

But if what you say is true, then you could negotiate a cash deal for say $30,000.

Then when you turn in your clunker, you'll get an additional $4,500 federal rebate + $4,500 manufacturer incentive. Your net cost would be $21,000.

BTW, is tax before rebate or after rebate?

I have a feeling the full $4,500 is not going to the consumer. The dealers get $4,500 from the Feds but if they don't pass is all along, then they are double dipping. Not only are the taxpayers subsidizing their sales but we are also subsidizing their profit margins.

Remember, most car buyers don't buy with cash. They buy on the monthly payments they can afford and that's what the sales tactics are based upon.

When shopping for cars, I have fun with the sales people. They keep on asking me how much I want to pay each month and I keep on asking them the net price of the car.

If I were a buyer, I would rather apply for the cash rebate on my own.

No no.. $4500 discount from manufacturer.
I believe the 335d starts at $43ish MSRP, so subtract that $4500. You most likely will be able to wiggle more out of it because you really don't buy a car at MSRP unless it's in high demand (the 335d isn't)...I'd say for this car, roughly invoice +$1k, since it's not popular plus BMW has a holdback allowance..Then additionally, if you qualify for the cash for clunker, that's another $4500. So you're looking around $33k or slightly lower for a 335d (excluding tax,license,etc). Then there's approximately $900 credit for the special fuel credit i think.

Not bad for a 335, though it's kinda ugly (wish it were a 2 door coupe option). And you'll probably have reliability issues up the yazoo. Unfortunately, you have to pay 1% more sales tax in CA which sucks.

The issue about folks not buying a car with all cash..Well, not exactly. You don't have to get financing from the dealer. You could finance it out of the dealer and from the dealer's perspective it's an all cash deal.

I don't waste my time with salesman, except to test drive the car..I go through the internet sales division or fleet sales and do it on email, saves me time and gets me the best price more so than I can do in the showroom. Saves the dealer time/money, because they can close a deal sooner than spending hours haggling.

Submitted by mixxalot on July 26, 2009 - 9:18am.

Good deal for new car purchase

Heck, my 1996 BMW 328is only has a value worth 3k so when I buy a new car, might be the way to go to get more for my car when I decide to buy me another vehicle!

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 26, 2009 - 10:09pm.

Is there anything in the rules that prevents me from requesting a friend or relative to buy a new car with CARS program and then selling it to me? This seems like a win for everyone. Old car scrapped, new car bought. I and my friend can then split the difference and the friend can go ahead and buy a better used (or new) vehicle if needed. Specially useful if he wants a lower MPG vehicle that won't work with CARS but I want a high MPG vehicle.

Submitted by Coronita on July 26, 2009 - 10:39pm.

bsrsharma wrote:
Is there anything in the rules that prevents me from requesting a friend or relative to buy a new car with CARS program and then selling it to me? This seems like a win for everyone. Old car scrapped, new car bought. I and my friend can then split the difference and the friend can go ahead and buy a better used (or new) vehicle if needed. Specially useful if he wants a lower MPG vehicle that won't work with CARS but I want a high MPG vehicle.

I posted this in this thread http://piggington.com/gov039t_giving_you....

1) i don't think there isn't a problem if a friend buying a car under CARS and then reselling it to you. However, you'll end up paying for taxes twice. Your friend/relative will pay for sales tax and registration taxes for the new car Then when he/she transfers the thing to you, you end up paying registration taxes again AND use tax for the estimated value of the used car...And no, it won't work if your friend/relative sells you the car for $1...DMV will flag this, trust me...
That pretty much eliminates the benefit of getting a CARS subsidy.

2) A better approach, I think, would be for you and your friend/relative to both buy the car together, with both of your names on the title of the car. Only one of you have to provide a clunker for trade in to take full advantage of the government subsidy...So for a brief period of time, the title will belong to both you and your friend/relative. Afterwards, just have your friend/relative removed from the title. Call up the DMV for the details on how to do this though. I don't have the details. The assumption would be though that this would be an all cash purchase, since getting a loan for this would pose an interesting problem. Also, you better trust your friend/relative...or at least make him/her pay for half of the car up front, and pay him/her off after he/she is removed from the title. Slightly more concern is the liability associated with you driving the car with both of you on the title..You get into an accident, both of you can possibly be sued. Also getting insurance will be interesting when two people are on the title.

Disclaimer: do your own due diligence... I have not crossed that road yet :)

Milk the system baby, milk it. ( I would if I could. But in lieu of that, I'm more than happy to help other fellow piggington's think of different ways to doing it...better us than overleveraged j6p that I have to now subsidize with higher taxes : ) )

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 26, 2009 - 10:55pm.

Some inventive mind should set up a "carpool" data base to match clunker owners and small car buyers. Clunker owners can upgrade to new/used low MPG vehicles or used high MPG vehicles, while helping someone to buy a new high MPG vehicle. It fixes a major flaw in the current CARS program i.e. upgrading from a clunker to a used high MPG vehicle.

Submitted by Coronita on July 26, 2009 - 10:59pm.

bsrsharma wrote:
Some inventive mind should set up a "carpool" data base to match clunker owners and small car buyers. Clunker owners can upgrade to new/used low MPG vehicles or used high MPG vehicles, while helping someone to buy a new high MPG vehicle. It fixes a major flaw in the current CARS program i.e. upgrading from a clunker to a used high MPG vehicle.

It only works based on trust. I wouldn't do this with a complete stranger, since we're talking about title ownership and liability

Submitted by bsrsharma on July 27, 2009 - 7:09pm.

If it is legal, is there a problem writing it in a contract and may be get it notarized. Perhaps a friendly lawyer can draft the text. Once a boilerplate contract is posted, others can copy it.

Submitted by Coronita on July 27, 2009 - 8:50pm.

probably, but then you have to wonder if it's really worth all the hassle for $4500 at most.

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