East County SD v St George for gzz’s budget McMansion lifestyle

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Submitted by gzz on August 4, 2022 - 4:53pm

My main search is 0.5+ acres and 4+ baths. From there I can narrow things down manually.

St G is obviously cheaper than Point Loma or La Jolla. But not seeing any value versus East County. Same basic 250-450ppsf. St George is on average a bit newer, and the lots are flatter. But the idea you need to flee SD to get a cheap home is just not right.

In my search I was horrified by what may be the single most hideous house I’ve ever seem. And I enjoy checking in on McMansion Hell blog which is funny but over critical.

This thing looks like Gaudi’s untalented brother got really drunk and drew a castle. Looking at the exterior makes me dizzy, and every room inside is terrible in a different way. The overall vibe inside is a campy version of Mr. Burns’s castle on the Simpsons.

2836 S 2300 E, Saint George, UT 84790
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhom...

Submitted by Coronita on August 4, 2022 - 9:57pm.

I thought you were going to move to
Rancho SD.

Interesting you are cross shopping Rancho SD versus LJ and Point Loma.

Feeling ok there, bud?

Submitted by Coronita on August 4, 2022 - 10:03pm.

Let's take s poll... Where go we think gzz is eventually going to end up?

I would vote somewhere in Poway

And then we will call you powayowner.

Because there was once a powayseller here before she got banned.

Submitted by gzz on August 4, 2022 - 10:39pm.

I am pretty close to a deal in RSD. We’re 1.3% apart now on price.

I never looked at LJ proper, too expensive.

4S looks great online but I am looking for bigger lots and lower prices so never seriously looked. My search was generally in the 1.3-1.8 range. Even 2.0 doesn’t go very far in 4S right now. 4S there’s a premium price for location, new construction, and school district that I value less than others.

I did look at a lot of listings at University City canyon fronting homes, PL and Clairemont. I probably would have stretched my budget up to 2.2 if I had found a perfect place in UC or PL, but I didn’t.

Another thing is I find older suburban areas more cozy. Prior to moving to SD I grew up in 60s and 70s suburbs. So PL/UC/Clairemont feel somewhat like my midwestern burb hometowns, but with palm trees.

Other homes I was interested enough to go to showings included Ramona, 2x La Mesa, Spring Valley, and El Cajon.

This week I also had my first visit to Poway, it reminded me of Pasadena where I have spent a lot of time for work. I had a lot of Poway places bookmarked to view, but the RSD place just won my heart first.

I do have many refined and pretentious tastes, but in physical buildings to spend my time in my tastes are very middle class Midwest. The two story huge entry room thing in so many post-2000 lux homes I just don’t like.

Submitted by flyer on August 5, 2022 - 7:41pm.

I'll vote RSD, since it sounds like gzz has found what he really wants there. My tastes are much different, especially when it comes to location. You can always make changes to the physical building(s), but, location, not so much. The main thing is that it fits the bill for gzz, and that's what really matters.

Submitted by svelte on August 6, 2022 - 12:07am.

1% aint squat when you're talking about happiness. Suck it up and buy it.

Submitted by barnaby33 on August 6, 2022 - 2:46pm.

It depends, 1% of what?
Josh

Submitted by sdrealtor on August 6, 2022 - 11:59pm.

barnaby33 wrote:
It depends, 1% of what?
Josh

No it doesn’t if it’s something you want. Let’s say it’s a 61 Haut Brion with pristine provenance. You think it’s worth $3000, you have the money and you’re willing to spend that. The guy says $3030 or no deal! Are you walking away? Really?

This is a situation of somebody trying to prove they are smart or they are right, not somebody looking to buy something they really want. Buy the bottle, drink the wine.

Submitted by an on August 7, 2022 - 9:54am.

If you are willing to walk away from a deal because of 1%,then either you can't afford it or you didn't really want it.

Submitted by gzz on August 7, 2022 - 11:53am.

They accepted my initial offer after I remade it. Their counteroffer was 25k higher, I said no, they took the initial.

I think the sale is a win all around. Sellers up about 500k, sliding right under the capgains exemption for a married couple. I am getting a place that’s about 10% below March 2022 peak price and perhaps 3% below market price, giving me a little safety cushion. I really don’t expect or care if I make money on this one, it is huge so will have high monthly expenses, and I don’t think RSD is especially well positioned for appreciation. (Santee and Mira Mesa are suburban areas that will outperform RSD in my opinion.)

I will probably end up with a 4.375% 7/30 Jumbo ARM.

Looking at my increased costs, my house in OB I believe will rent for about 4400. Net cost of the new place will be about 7000. 2600 a month isn’t peanuts, but if the new place appreciates 1.5% a year, then the appreciation makes this a break even, and anything more than 1.5% is profit.

As for the risk on the ARM, the interest savings will be about 30k before the rate resets. I am ok with the additional risk that in 7 years I will still have the mortgage and it will reset higher. Part of me being OK with this risk is that all my other debt is fixed at lower rates.

Submitted by flyer on August 7, 2022 - 4:44pm.

Congratulations!

I know you mentioned you had some specific housing needs for your family, including having your parents live on the property, and that's not an easy bill to fill in this market. Glad you found what works well for all of you.

Everyone has different tastes and needs, so, it doesn't really matter what others think. There are some areas people diss--that I kind of like--and other areas people rave about--many of which are areas I would never consider living--so it all boils down to individual needs and preferences. Keep RSF in mind as time goes on, because there are some properties around us that would be perfect for your needs.

When all is said and done, life is short, so simply enjoy!

Submitted by scaredyclassic on August 8, 2022 - 7:37am.

svelte wrote:
1% aint squat when you're talking about happiness. Suck it up and buy it.

I will sacrifice happiness for 1%.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on August 8, 2022 - 7:50am.

gzz wrote:
They accepted my initial offer after I remade it. Their counteroffer was 25k higher, I said no, they took the initial.

I think the sale is a win all around. Sellers up about 500k, sliding right under the capgains exemption for a married couple. I am getting a place that’s about 10% below March 2022 peak price and perhaps 3% below market price, giving me a little safety cushion. I really don’t expect or care if I make money on this one, it is huge so will have high monthly expenses, and I don’t think RSD is especially well positioned for appreciation. (Santee and Mira Mesa are suburban areas that will outperform RSD in my opinion.)

I will probably end up with a 4.375% 7/30 Jumbo ARM.

Looking at my increased costs, my house in OB I believe will rent for about 4400. Net cost of the new place will be about 7000. 2600 a month isn’t peanuts, but if the new place appreciates 1.5% a year, then the appreciation makes this a break even, and anything more than 1.5% is profit.

As for the risk on the ARM, the interest savings will be about 30k before the rate resets. I am ok with the additional risk that in 7 years I will still have the mortgage and it will reset higher. Part of me being OK with this risk is that all my other debt is fixed at lower rates.


well done. I enjoy the way you (and me, and all of us) tell ourselves little stories about money, the pockets of it, where it goes and why it's ok. Many many years ago when I worked as junior assistant bond counsel, I was in a meeting where the guy who put the bonds on the market (I forget what his role was called) was explaining to some governmental entity humans (the people who get the money, whatever they're called) about how and why he did a spectacular job managing the money and getting the very best interest rate of that particular day. I still remember how beautifully he told the story. At the end I was like, man, this guy's a financial genius! Now, I think, naah, not a financial genius, but I still think he was a type of genius; a storytelling genius.

Money is a story. I liked your story. While you may (or may not) be a genius, you did good. Also, you sound heroic to me for fighting for the 1%. Enjoy, to the extent possible, in this anxiety-ridden capitalist madhouse. Perhaps more important that enjoyment for some is the creation of a story that makes sense.

Submitted by sdrealtor on August 8, 2022 - 8:48am.

Heavy odds favoring cancellation

Submitted by teaboy on August 8, 2022 - 8:55am.

an wrote:
If you are willing to walk away from a deal because of 1%,then either you can't afford it or you didn't really want it.

If you'd pay 1% more, then why not 2% more? If you'd pay 2% more, then why not 3% more, etc, etc, etc...

At some point you need to assess your BATNA, or draw a line somewhere, however arbitrary it may seem.

So, I reject your hypotheses, an & sdrealtor!

Amirite?
tb

and congrats on sealing the deal, gzz.

Submitted by an on August 8, 2022 - 9:35am.

teaboy wrote:
an wrote:
If you are willing to walk away from a deal because of 1%,then either you can't afford it or you didn't really want it.

If you'd pay 1% more, then why not 2% more? If you'd pay 2% more, then why not 3% more, etc, etc, etc...

At some point you need to assess your BATNA, or draw a line somewhere, however arbitrary it may seem.

So, I reject your hypotheses, an & sdrealtor!

Amirite?
tb

and congrats on sealing the deal, gzz.


2% is 100% more than 1%. You're right, we all have our own line and those lines tend to reflect how much we want the thing we wanted to buy. For a $2m house, 1% is $20k. With a 30 years mortgage, that's $666/year more or ~$55/month. If you're will to walk away from a $2m deal because of an additional $55/month, then either you didn't really want it to begin with (or at least not enough to pay $55/month more) or you already were stretched to the brink and can't afford $55/month more. BTW, $55/month is cheaper than my internet bill.

Submitted by sdrealtor on August 8, 2022 - 9:48am.

teaboy wrote:
an wrote:
If you are willing to walk away from a deal because of 1%,then either you can't afford it or you didn't really want it.

If you'd pay 1% more, then why not 2% more? If you'd pay 2% more, then why not 3% more, etc, etc, etc...

At some point you need to assess your BATNA, or draw a line somewhere, however arbitrary it may seem.

So, I reject your hypotheses, an & sdrealtor!

Amirite?
tb

and congrats on sealing the deal, gzz.

You are missing the point. There is a difference between 1,2 and 3 % but coming here and bragging about his negotiation just says two things. He doesn’t really love the house and feeling like a winner is more important than getting the right house for his family. I’ve done this before many times. 50/50 he ends up walking away.

Submitted by Coronita on August 8, 2022 - 10:17am.

.

Submitted by teaboy on August 8, 2022 - 11:06am.

Am I missing the point? I dont get why that is.

If you're willing to pay $2M for a thingamabob, then 1% more is $2.02M. By your theory you'd thus be somewhat stingy not to be willing to pay $2.02M for it.
So, now you'd be willing to pay $2.02M for a thingamabob and, again, you'd thus be somewhat stingy not to be willing to pay $2.0402M for it.
So, now you'd be willing to $2.0402M for a thingamabob...

Who sets the base at $2M? You do. But that was only shortly after you realized you were willing to pay $1.980198M for that thingamabob...

tb

Submitted by scaredyclassic on August 8, 2022 - 12:09pm.

In the film THE USUAL SUSPECTS, when some bad guys threaten to kill another bad guys family in front of him, he responds by shooting his own family himself.

Now that's negotiation.

There is great value in a strong position, even if not entirely rational.

Submitted by sdrealtor on August 8, 2022 - 12:11pm.

Its not a thingamabob. It’s a home for his family. Quite a difference. I’ve been doing this more than two decades and see it over and over. People don’t live in thingamabobs

Submitted by sdrealtor on August 8, 2022 - 12:12pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
In the film THE USUAL SUSPECTS, when some bad guys threaten to kill another bad guys family in front of him, he responds by shooting his own family himself.

Now that's negotiation.

There is great value in a strong position, even if not entirely rational.

Keyser Soze

Submitted by an on August 8, 2022 - 2:13pm.

teaboy wrote:
Am I missing the point? I dont get why that is.

If you're willing to pay $2M for a thingamabob, then 1% more is $2.02M. By your theory you'd thus be somewhat stingy not to be willing to pay $2.02M for it.
So, now you'd be willing to pay $2.02M for a thingamabob and, again, you'd thus be somewhat stingy not to be willing to pay $2.0402M for it.
So, now you'd be willing to $2.0402M for a thingamabob...

Who sets the base at $2M? You do. But that was only shortly after you realized you were willing to pay $1.980198M for that thingamabob...

tb


I never used to word stingy. There's a huge difference between being stingy and not caring for something enough to pay the extra 1% to close the deal.

As sdr said, you're buying a home and not a thingamabob. There are intangible variables that goes into buying a home that doesn't exist in most other thingamabobs.

For the same home $2m, one person would willing to pay 5% more because they really want it, while the other only want to pay 1% more, another might not want to pay any more than what was offered, and while another would not go over $1.9m for it. Worst yet, there might be someone who come in at $1.85m all cash and the seller pick that buyer.

As I said, assuming you can afford the deal, then you probably don't care for the home all that much, so it's OK to lose the deal because of the 1% difference.

I've walked away on plenty of deals when my offer price was not accepted and I also went up to where the seller is to close on the deals. It all comes down to how much I wanted the place.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on August 8, 2022 - 5:44pm.

There's a really awful song from the 60s that sticks in my head, I heard it as a child. I think my parents may have taken me to a pete seeger concert...

somng's called Little boxes...about real estate, conformity and general crappiness of society. it's just an awful song, such an arrogant, elitist monstrosity of a song. Should have a parental advisory warning sticker on it.

The song would probably go with the theory that houses are thingamabobs. I think this song may have messed me up and caused me to rebel for no good reason. I despise this song.

the song is of course incredibly dated now; HOAs would prohibit different colored houses, and your kids can't afford to live in the same ticky tacky box. ahh, the good old days back when it was ok to deride normal suburban existence.

Little boxes on the hillside
Little boxes made of ticky tacky
Little boxes on the hillside
Little boxes all the same
There's a pink one and a green one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same
And the people in the houses
All went to the university
Where they were put in boxes
And they came out all the same
And there's doctors and lawyers
And business executives
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same
And they all play on the golf course
And drink their martinis dry
And they all have pretty children
And the children go to school
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university
Where they are put in boxes
And they come out all the same
And the boys go into business
And marry and raise a family
In boxes made of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same
There's a pink one and a green one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same

https://youtu.be/tbWbwFM7x6w

Submitted by XBoxBoy on August 8, 2022 - 6:45pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
There's a really awful song from the 60s that sticks in my head, I heard it as a child. I think my parents may have taken me to a pete seeger concert...

somng's called Little boxes...about real estate, conformity and general crappiness of society. it's just an awful song, such an arrogant, elitist monstrosity of a song. Should have a parental advisory warning sticker on it.

This was used as the theme song of the show "Weeds"! Loved the show, but yeah, the song is kinda arrogant.

Submitted by gzz on August 9, 2022 - 5:38pm.

Thank you flyer teaboy and scaredy for the kind words.

Teaboy's comments show the fallacy of the "why not just pay 1% more if you really care." The extra 1% can be repeated endlessly, something like Zeno's paradoxes.

Yes, I would have walked over the 25k difference. Prices are falling in east county at least, and the type of big suburban homes I was targeting start losing some of their potential buyers as the school year approaches. If this were the only McMansion in San Diego under 2m, yes I would have paid the extra 25k. But that's not the situation.

I might have come back to the same home, or found another, or just waited a couple months and reentered the market. The home was the best home for me on the market now and I really like it. But there was 1 home that sold in early June I wish I had grabbed that was better than the one I am buying, and maybe 2-3 more over the past 6 months that were about equal.

I negotiate litigation settlements all the time, so while I may not be an expert, nor am I noob. Suburban homes are a lot easier to value than most legal cases. For example, property sales are public record, but most settlements are confidential, so the pool of "recent comparable sales" in litigation may be small or oftentimes zero.

So far I am liking the jumbo loan process. While pretty close to conforming mortgage process, there seems to be less of a focus on checking Fannie Mae guideline boxes and more on just documenting the major income and assets. I also like that it will be serviced by the same big bank originating bank. I have had Wells and Chase service mortgages, and they are a lot more user friendly than tiny companies that right now have my three current mortgages. My processor also noted that if I choose to make a 15k+ extra payment, I can have my loan "recast" such that instead of an earlier payoff date, the minimum payment is recalculated lower. There have been times when that would have been great.

Submitted by gzz on August 9, 2022 - 5:49pm.

I enjoyed Weeds when it was initially airing, especially the seasons set in San Diego. Mary Louise Parker has such a great presence and Kevin Nealon is underrated.

This TV show was set and filmed in OB. It got good reviews, but the premise didn't interest me and it only lasted one season.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terriers_(TV_series)

I remember them blocking off roads and the huge Hollywood sized film crews two blocks from my house.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on August 10, 2022 - 7:19am.

gzz wrote:
Thank you flyer teaboy and scaredy for the kind words.

Teaboy's comments show the fallacy of the "why not just pay 1% more if you really care." The extra 1% can be repeated endlessly, something like Zeno's paradoxes.

Yes, I would have walked over the 25k difference. Prices are falling in east county at least, and the type of big suburban homes I was targeting start losing some of their potential buyers as the school year approaches. If this were the only McMansion in San Diego under 2m, yes I would have paid the extra 25k. But that's not the situation.

I might have come back to the same home, or found another, or just waited a couple months and reentered the market. The home was the best home for me on the market now and I really like it. But there was 1 home that sold in early June I wish I had grabbed that was better than the one I am buying, and maybe 2-3 more over the past 6 months that were about equal.

I negotiate litigation settlements all the time, so while I may not be an expert, nor am I noob. Suburban homes are a lot easier to value than most legal cases. For example, property sales are public record, but most settlements are confidential, so the pool of "recent comparable sales" in litigation may be small or oftentimes zero.

So far I am liking the jumbo loan process. While pretty close to conforming mortgage process, there seems to be less of a focus on checking Fannie Mae guideline boxes and more on just documenting the major income and assets. I also like that it will be serviced by the same big bank originating bank. I have had Wells and Chase service mortgages, and they are a lot more user friendly than tiny companies that right now have my three current mortgages. My processor also noted that if I choose to make a 15k+ extra payment, I can have my loan "recast" such that instead of an earlier payoff date, the minimum payment is recalculated lower. There have been times when that would have been great.

Litigation settlements are about stories too.

Submitted by gzz on August 11, 2022 - 11:52am.

Nothing a lawyer of a certain age likes more than telling “war stories.”

Here’s one from me. I was the lead lawyer in a case and won at the Ninth Circuit. The other side sought en banc review and was immediately rejected. Then sought Supreme Court review, which was granted.

While I wanted to again argue the case, the issue being reviewed was a narrow and technical one, and an attorney who had won a similar case before the Supreme Court offered to do it very cheaply. So I owed it to my clients to step aside.

We then lost 0-9, with Sotomayor writing a unanimous decision.

I could have done it, it couldn’t get any worse than that.

In the end, it didn’t matter. Only a narrow slice of the Ninth Circuit’s decision was reversed. With the rest of it intact, we won before the trial court.

Today I learned by best prospect for another Supreme Court trip was cancelled. The 1986 decision Kelly v Robinson has been aggressively criticized by circuit courts, who suggested it may be bad law. The 9th Circuit called it a “relic of the 80s” like “big hair and NutraSweet”

In 2020, the SC appeared to be interested in revisiting it, but declined because one of the lawyers was a pro se bankrupt attorney coming off a suspended license. In my case, the other side was a competent big SD firm.

What dashed my dream was the other side decided not to defend Kelly at all. I think I would have won in the end, but they had plenty of good cases and arguments they could have cited.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on August 11, 2022 - 1:35pm.

gzz wrote:
Nothing a lawyer of a certain age likes more than telling “war stories.”

Here’s one from me. I was the lead lawyer in a case and won at the Ninth Circuit. The other side sought en banc review and was immediately rejected. Then sought Supreme Court review, which was granted.

While I wanted to again argue the case, the issue being reviewed was a narrow and technical one, and an attorney who had won a similar case before the Supreme Court offered to do it very cheaply. So I owed it to my clients to step aside.

We then lost 0-9, with Sotomayor writing a unanimous decision.

I could have done it, it couldn’t get any worse than that.

In the end, it didn’t matter. Only a narrow slice of the Ninth Circuit’s decision was reversed. With the rest of it intact, we won before the trial court.

Today I learned by best prospect for another Supreme Court trip was cancelled. The 1986 decision Kelly v Robinson has been aggressively criticized by circuit courts, who suggested it may be bad law. The 9th Circuit called it a “relic of the 80s” like “big hair and NutraSweet”

In 2020, the SC appeared to be interested in revisiting it, but declined because one of the lawyers was a pro se bankrupt attorney coming off a suspended license. In my case, the other side was a competent big SD firm.

What dashed my dream was the other side decided not to defend Kelly at all. I think I would have won in the end, but they had plenty of good cases and arguments they could have cited.

Procedural stories are good. I also like the underlying human stories.

Submitted by sdrealtor on August 11, 2022 - 7:00pm.

I prefer the stories about the cases you were wrong about and lost

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