The dire climate of CA public university admissions for freshmen

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Submitted by bearishgurl on October 18, 2014 - 4:49pm

Three of my kid's best friends (all HS Class of 2014) are currently attending Southwestern College (SWC) because SDSU reneged on their "Compact for Success" guaranteed admission promises and they couldn't afford housing out-of-county. All three of them are currently "waitlisted" for Freshman English and Math.

I don't know how these kids expect to transfer to university in a timely manner when they can't even get the core GE's they need at CC in order to transfer to UC/CSU.

From the looks of things, the CA CC budget cuts are only going to get worse with each passing academic year. All those HS students who had a dream of attending CC for two years and then transfer into UC/CSU as a junior (in order to "save money") might find themselves attending 3-5 campuses across the county (2 simultaneously in any given semester) for three years or more in order to obtain an Associate of Transfer (Arts) or Associate of Transfer (Science). Those are the only two specific "Associate Degrees" which the CSU is currently accepting for transfer (not sure about UC). Worthless by themselves, these "degrees" are solely comprised of the core 60 units of GE's needed to transfer into a BA or BS program at the CSU.

http://www.adegreewithaguarantee.com/

http://www.calstate.edu/transfer/degrees/

All the CSU admission rules have changed since Fall 2011 (remediation at the university level is now dwindling to nil). The last of these changes were implemented Fall 2014.

My advice to CA high-school students (and their parents) who aspire to graduate in 4-5 years is:

-Fvck CC. Do what it takes to get admitted to UC/CSU NOW!

-Spare no expense and apply for 8-12 schools using the common apps (or use app fee waivers if qualified for them) ON OR BEFORE November 30 of your senior year. The earliest apps are given more weight in the admissions process.

-DECLARE A MAJOR .... DO NOT APPLY UNDECLARED!

-Get a 4-year plan up front from the school your student accepts an admission offer from. Try to qualify for a "4-year graduation pledge" with those campuses who offer it (likely less impacted campuses). This will enable your student to register for classes for the next quarter/semester 2-6 weeks prior to the masses registering to ensure they get the exact classes they need which are already laid out on their 4-year plan from their orientation date forward.

-Keep an open mind and make sure some of your apps are to INLAND campuses which are LESS impacted due to "presumed" inferior location.

-Parents, don't think that just because your kid has a ~4.0 GPA that they're going to be automatically admitted to the CA public campus(es) of their choice. 4.0 is now the new 3.3 in CA. Your seemingly perfect HS student snowflake is not that special to the admissions boards and there are plenty of highly-qualified out-of-state/out-of country applicants willing and able to pay the "full freight" at most CA public university campuses (yes, even "inland" campuses).

-Convince your college-bound kid to apply out of state if you can swing it and they are willing and qualified. The WUE grants 20-30% discounts off non-resident tuition at public universities in its member states (in-state tuition to Alaskans and Hawaiians) and in most of the areas of these (out-of-state) campuses, the lower housing costs make the whole annual college expense just as much or less than in-state tuition, fees, room and board at on near CA campuses, depending on their respective locations.

http://wue.wiche.edu/search_results.jsp?...

-And of course, if you are a 1-5%er (or your kid has a deep-pocketed benefactor), convince your kid to apply to private schools both in and out of state. They will likely finish in four years and time is money.

-Lastly, if your kid absolutely cannot declare a major while still in HS, have him/her apply to smallish liberal arts public colleges out of state (where they will have up to 3 semesters to make up their minds without penalty) or a private liberal arts college.

FWIW, my last kid has been at their (out-of-county) public university campus now less than a month and already has a 21 hr per week job (off-campus), joined a club related to their major and has been officially "pinned" this week to the Greek organization of their choice. My kid is having the time of their life!

Those with K-12 kids in the pipeline might be interested to learn that the CA public university admissions process has become a very stressful jungle out there! There is no rhyme or reason to it and each campus conducts their three-month "rolling admissions" a little differently (for apps out of their "service areas," which get special consideration for lower qualifications). Contrary to flu's ideas he's posted here previously, I don't think "the system" can be (easily) gamed, that is ... unless an applicant’s parent(s) was an alumni of a particular campus AND a BIG donor.

GOOD LUCK to everyone who has HS seniors applying for college this fall!

Any college admission tips, suggestions, etc are welcome.

Submitted by CA renter on October 19, 2014 - 1:28am.

Thank you very much for your insights, BG. We were just talking to some other parents whose kids are in the university system and some whose kids have recently graduated about these issues. You're right, unfortunately.

It's a very different world, both at the college and at the professional/career level, than what you and I experienced in our youth. Not good changes, BTW.

Submitted by NotCranky on October 19, 2014 - 7:52am.

Great public service post, BG.

How about kids declaring a major and then getting most of it finished and then having a hard time getting the last few classes. How much is that happening.

We know a kid who went through a guaranteed placement from high school into an engineering program. He was apparently kicking butt .Recently I found out that it has been taking him a few years to nail down the last requirements due to lack of classes.

Congrats on your kid doing so well!

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 3:55pm.

All CA CC's are in the same boat, though I suspect that the more "rural" ones (such as Lake Tahoe CC) have far less students attempting to sign up for the same core GE's so they can eventually transfer to university. It is a shame that these community institutions can no longer "guarantee" an associate degree in two years for FT students.

They still serve a need for training in the trades (ROP) and administering certificate programs for those who want/need to work FT in a particular field ASAP. Free day care for children is provided for those parents who qualify.

For the university bound, CA CC's are a crapshoot, at best. It is far better to get accepted to a university ASAP after HS. If the one your student got accepted to is not their first choice, then they can always reapply to their preferred campus ONLY AFTER they finish the core GE's (60 units for semester schedule or 90 units for quarter schedule) at their current university campus but NOT BEFORE! If they don't get in at that late date, they should STAY WHERE THEY ARE. They are already "in." No harm done.

I think too much attention is paid by freshman applicants for UC/CSU to location (often those campuses located at or near the coast) causing severe impaction of all degree programs offered on several campuses.

http://www.calstate.edu/SAS/impactioninf...

http://www.calstate.edu/sas/impactionsea...

http://www.calstate.edu/SAS/impaction-ca...

Here's an interesting CSU "service area" recruitment list. Note that there is no mention in it of the "Compact for Success" program in SUHSD (for SDSU). Several other CSU campuses seriously consider their local "service area" freshman applicants using lesser admission standards than the rest of their applicants (out of county, state and country). This is as it should be to ensure university affordability to all freshman (not be forced into pricey on-campus housing contracts).

http://www.calstate.edu/sas/documents/CS...

Just like HS, IT DOESN'T matter where the kid gets his diploma/degree if a particular degree program offers the exact same 4 yr curriculum at several different local HS's or CSU campuses. It's really okay to graduate from an "inland" UC or CSU. The new bachelor's degree graduate can accept their first FT job anywhere they wish (coastal CA or even another state).

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 19, 2014 - 4:11pm.

mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.

i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they're barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit...and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.

come on...

ah, i guess it's ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 4:26pm.

Blogstar wrote:
Great public service post, BG.

How about kids declaring a major and then getting most of it finished and then having a hard time getting the last few classes. How much is that happening.

We know a kid who went through a guaranteed placement from high school into an engineering program. He was apparently kicking butt .Recently I found out that it has been taking him a few years to nail down the last requirements due to lack of classes.

Congrats on your kid doing so well!

Well thanks, Russ, but my kid hasn't actually received any grades yet :-P. Social animal that they are, I had to counsel them at length this morning on budgeting properly to make their earnings last longer (their checking acct is tied to mine so I can see what they're doing with their debit card :=0). I read them the riot act because the dad and me were recently asked to pay the first $400+ installment of "Greek" dues (incl application and initiation fee) when kid had the money several times over since May and blew it. We've agreed to cover this first bill and then they're going to be on their own for the rest (~$500 for the rest of the year).

I had no idea Greek dues had risen this much when we applied online in early September to "rush." My other kid(s) only paid <$500 for the whole academic year.

I also had another discussion with my kid about time management this morning because I feel they are suddenly going to get so busy that their grades will slip, possibly making them ineligible for their continuing scholarship, which I am processing twice yearly. My kid may very well have to scale down to 14 hrs per week of work (two 7-hr shifts as opposed to their current three shifts) when they return to campus in January 2015.

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 5:04pm.

..

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 5:09pm.

Blogstar wrote:
Great public service post, BG.

How about kids declaring a major and then getting most of it finished and then having a hard time getting the last few classes. How much is that happening.

We know a kid who went through a guaranteed placement from high school into an engineering program. He was apparently kicking butt .Recently I found out that it has been taking him a few years to nail down the last requirements due to lack of classes.

Congrats on your kid doing so well!

Russ, I think I may have posted here a few years ago that I had a kid (a double-major with two business majors) who graduated from SFSU in May 2011 and could not get the last three classes in their senior year that they needed to graduate. They called me in late January of 2011 complaining that they had been crashing classes for a week and couldn't get in and also could not sign up for the classes they needed online (couldn't get priority sign up due to mismanagement of scholarship applications which paid the bursar late - that's why I'm now handling this detail). I spoke to the Dean of the Business School who told me that he had to "lay off" several instructors and not replace several who had retired the previous summer. I told him that it's not right for juniors to get into the (350+ and 400 level) classes when seniors who have already been in attendance 5-6 years can't get the classes they need to graduate. He had his assistant find my kid the classes they needed from nearby CSU campuses (Concord and Hayward [CSUEB], who would transfer the credits back to SFSU) and my kid had to pay over $800 (over and above their tuition and fees to SFSU) to take the Hayward class online through their "extension program." They did so and also attended the Concord campus classes and graduated May 2011. This kid had a great income (~40K) and "rent control" almost all through college. In earning this much, they lost their CalVet waiver for tuition fees, which was worth at that time about $2500 to $3600, but they didn't care.

http://www.cacvso.org/fee-waiver-program/

NOW, the CalVet waiver is worth ~$5475 year at the CSU, payroll taxes are higher and jobs for students are much harder to find. So it is NOT WORTH IT anymore for the student to exceed the income limits, IMO.

My last kid was admitted to SFSU but their major program was impacted there and the SFSU Business School could not guarantee graduation in any of 8 disciplines they offer in even six years. Life is too short to repeat those frustrations so they are currently attending a CSU campus with more room (both classrooms AND open space) and more individual attention in which were very fortunate to be admitted to (considering the competition).

Folks, be prepared to "helicopter" a little bit for your UC/CSU-bound HS kid during the app process and while they're a freshman. As a former bureaucrat myself, I consider myself a master at cutting through bureaucracy (2013/14 was the first time I tried this, except for the last semester of senior year for the above kid).

So far, so good. Ask me again next year :=0

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 5:44pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.

i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they're barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit...and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.

come on...

ah, i guess it's ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation

SWC recently completed the multimillion-dollar renovation of Devore Stadium.

http://www.swccd.edu/index.aspx?recordid...

Many of the SUHSD schools use SWC's auditorium and will also use this new stadium due to having no like facilities of their own.

Yes, scaredy, most of the CA CC's instructors are "adjunct" instructors (who work a FT job elsewhere or are collecting a pension). They are actually paid by the class taught (as a yoga instructor at a gym would be, for example)!

I believe it is the duty of CA CC's to prepare FT college freshman and sophomores for CA university admission. Since many CC campuses likely can no longer achieve this on a consistent basis with their many (expensive) classrooms sitting empty due to lack of (cheap) staff, it's well past time to let the cat out of the bag and tell HS seniors the truth: that they would be MUCH better off applying for university NOW and getting the h@ll out of dodge if that's what it takes to begin university classes right out of HS.

Bakersfield, Merced and Fresno are actually downright cheap to live in! (No, my kid isn't attending those campuses but has friends that are.) As you know, several other UC/CSU campus locations only have a slightly higher off-campus cost of living than the above three. I've seen the recent improvements of Fresno State and the new UC Merced campus and they are both beautiful and state of the art!

Returning veterans should just enroll in UC/CSU (even if they have to move their families near campus). Many already have college credits from their shipboard and field assignments. They don't need 60 core units to get admitted and can get admitted under different criteria. They have CalVet or Chapter 35 aid and/or the Montgomery GI Plan. Any UC/CSU would be most happy to have them and would assign them their very own personal academic advisor. As it should be.

I can see no good reason for a returning vet to waste their precious time after leaving active duty service (when many already have children to support) playing endless games at a CA CC unless they are dreaming of becoming an auto alignment specialist or going into construction trades.

Submitted by joec on October 19, 2014 - 6:00pm.

I've posted before that if you can go private, do so. I graduated from a "coastal" UC engineering program. As engineering classes 20 years ago have pre-reqs and you need to take them in order (usually), if you get a C- in any class, you're guaranteed to stay another year since you need to retake it and they are only offered once a year and never during the summer.

For a UC system where some of your upper division engr classes are curved, this means 1/3 of the class will stay another year or drop out of the program.

Something to consider if you do a STEM major.

All that said, I think "UC" schools aren't that great and if given the choice or if your kid has the choice, go to a nice private/ivy/stanford/cal-tech/mit/harvey mudd school/program.

I think the kids in those schools will be the future leaders of America and it's best to be friends with those people.

Also, trying to get hired at the top tech companies or any company is easier at the Ivy's I feel. Connections are worth a lot more to getting ahead, especially if you want to eventually leave the worker bee/engineer/tech/worker type field and move up to management. You can do a search for Fortune 500 CEOs and many come from elite universities due to connections. A lot of the UC students, I assume tend to be immigrant families (I was one) just looking to be a worker bee, etc...since that's what their parents did/know/etc...

With grants/loans for kids who are great, a lot of private schools will also cover a lot more expenses now so you may pay a similar amount or even less than a UC or CSU school.

My 2 cents.

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 6:11pm.

Here's an alternative to (impacted) UC/CSU campuses for your college-bound engineering major, folks.

ASU is now offering a 38.5% WUE discount off out-of-state tuition on three campuses for 33 BS majors (predominantly engineering) and 3 BA majors. The BS majors offered there are all in very employable fields!

How much would I save with WUE?
Resident tuition: $9484
Nonresident tuition: $23136
WUE rate (Resident x 150%): $14226
WUE Savings: $8910

Important: The rates shown are taken from WICHE's Annual Tuition and Fees Report for AY2013 - 14 and do not include fees. Actual tuition rates may vary. These rates assume 30 credit hours per year. We strongly encourage you to verify these rates with the admissions office where you want to enroll.

http://wue.wiche.edu/profile.jsp?id=202

ASU is currently offering about 28 more majors (with a much larger WUE discount) than when I first heard about this program about four years ago!

I have a relative who is a retired HS teacher from the PHX area. She told me that most rural and semi-rural HS students in AZ do not have the qualifications to get admitted to university because they attended HS's on Native American Indian reservations where the HS dropout rate is high. Although public outreach to convince tribal kids to graduate HS has been in place for several years, some of the tribal-member students and their families do not place a high priority on HS graduation.

Thus, the generous WUE offerings to out-of-state students by ASU, which was one of the first institutions to join the agreement.

Submitted by bearishgurl on October 19, 2014 - 7:38pm.

joec wrote:
I've posted before that if you can go private, do so. I graduated from a "coastal" UC engineering program. As engineering classes 20 years ago have pre-reqs and you need to take them in order (usually), if you get a C- in any class, you're guaranteed to stay another year since you need to retake it and they are only offered once a year and never during the summer.

For a UC system where some of your upper division engr classes are curved, this means 1/3 of the class will stay another year or drop out of the program.

Something to consider if you do a STEM major.

All that said, I think "UC" schools aren't that great and if given the choice or if your kid has the choice, go to a nice private/ivy/stanford/cal-tech/mit/harvey mudd school/program.

I think the kids in those schools will be the future leaders of America and it's best to be friends with those people.

Also, trying to get hired at the top tech companies or any company is easier at the Ivy's I feel. Connections are worth a lot more to getting ahead, especially if you want to eventually leave the worker bee/engineer/tech/worker type field and move up to management. You can do a search for Fortune 500 CEOs and many come from elite universities due to connections. A lot of the UC students, I assume tend to be immigrant families (I was one) just looking to be a worker bee, etc...since that's what their parents did/know/etc...

With grants/loans for kids who are great, a lot of private schools will also cover a lot more expenses now so you may pay a similar amount or even less than a UC or CSU school.

My 2 cents.

I agree, joec, but the ivies, Caltech, USC and Claremont Colleges, for example require big loans for most students and parents at some point in their college "career" (if not from day one), greatly hampering the graduate's ability to get on with their lives after graduation (marriage, kids, home, newer vehicles, etc). Scholarship money is never guaranteed for the entire four years (while the tuition goes up).

My kid(s) were successful in life and can/will be able to support themselves solely BECAUSE they didn't and will not take out any student loans.

The community work and charitable fund-raising that students who belong to Greek organizations do exposes them to possible internships and later, job interviews due to the "deep pocketed" and "well-connected" individuals who run the charitable organizations and regular interaction with their many regular donors. Becoming a Greek is a way for a kid to get a leg up in life where if they would have stayed home and gone to CC with their HS friends (many of whom they have known all their lives), they would have likely had a much different outcome, including early marriage and children ... or just children. A university sophomore, junior or senior attending and out-of-county campus only has to visit their home turf and HS friends around holidays to observe the life they (unwittingly and unplanned) created for themselves.

For the 1-5%er parents or (qualified) kid with a benefactor, the expensive private colleges are a no brainer.

Submitted by CA renter on October 19, 2014 - 8:40pm.

scaredyclassic wrote:
mt san jacinto, cc in riverside, just had a bond measure on the ballot for about 300 million for new facility upgrades.

i voted against, ebcause, i dont know, it looked pretty nice when i went to visit a couple years ago. doesnt seem liek they need a construction project seems like they need to just run more classes with more profs. they're barely paying these teachers anything. just keep the place running doubletime. am i out of line witht hat suggestion. jeez. you got a room, the library is unebelievably gorgreous, just fucking have some goddamn classes!!!! and stop building shit...and the shamelessness the way the ballot is tied to educating returning veterns.

come on...

ah, i guess it's ok, dumber ways to spend 300 million than a college renovation

Preach it, scaredy!

I'd add that colleges/universities should not be focusing so much of their money on athletics (especially if they're a net drain on university finances) if students are not able to get all the classes they need. ALL resources should be dedicated to academics first, IMO.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 19, 2014 - 9:18pm.

fucking sports. it's sick

first we keep kids in chairs too long for their entire schooling, like calves destined to become veal.

and then we lavish attention ont he fastest and strongest ones and let them run around and build stadiums.

i could vomit.

VOMIT!

Submitted by NotCranky on October 19, 2014 - 10:25pm.

Talked with some people today at a birthday party, both working SDSU students so few classes, classes offered only once a year so they are finding it very rough to work and finish school. They have to dump work to get the classes.

If a student had to retake anything, I guess that can be a huge setback. Of course none of our kids will ever have to retake anything.

Submitted by joec on October 20, 2014 - 6:53pm.

I agree that if you had to pay your whole way to a private ivy or out of state school, then the choice to go is much lower. The hope is that your kid is desired by the school (the only reason for them to go I suppose) and they will offer some type of reduced cost or at least some lower cost aid based on income...With how much these schools cost, I'd assume most normal, non 1% will qualify for some decent aid. I think the percentages are very high for ivys as to who needs/gets aid.

There are various news articles of that happening to some people where the private school is less or similar to a public UC school.

One thing to also consider as mentioned is that I'm assuming private schools don't have as much issues with getting your classes vs. UC (we had this problem 20+ years ago seriously so it's not anything surprising now).

The lack of classes alone will most likely force some kids to stay an extra year. Kids may not want to stay or retake classes, but when midterms or final exams in engr avg say 20% out of 100, 1/3 of the class will simply fail. It's unavoidable... just hope it's not you. I remember when going there, there was talk that the UC sorta wants to kick kids out so that's why they make it hard to drop classes (get stuck with bad grades if falling behind, etc...).

Of course, my opinion is all based on the fact that I wasn't the top top student in my class and was also just dumb/stupid and goofed off way too much. At least I graduated. Also, maybe if I started some awesome company and sold it for millions, my views would be different too.

GoPro CEO/founder is a UCSD grad so some make it big...Of course, if you read his bio, his parents are very wealthy or pretty well off and had money to invest in his companies, etc...so I'd assume they/he also had a lot of connections. Connections are worth a lot more than people like to admit to themselves and more obvious when you feel you are hitting a glass ceiling.

Submitted by nla on October 20, 2014 - 7:49pm.

joec wrote:
I agree that if you had to pay your whole way to a private ivy or out of state school, then the choice to go is much lower. The hope is that your kid is desired by the school (the only reason for them to go I suppose) and they will offer some type of reduced cost or at least some lower cost aid based on income...With how much these schools cost, I'd assume most normal, non 1% will qualify for some decent aid. I think the percentages are very high for ivys as to who needs/gets aid.

My daughter is a freshmen at an Ivy. Ivy League schools and most top schools (Stanford, Caltech, MIT) DOES NOT give any merit aid. (In fact all Ivy League schools does not give athletic scholarship.) Only need-based aid. If your HH income is about 200K+/year plus decent savings, you are full pay or near full pay. The most generous are HYPS wherein, they still give you a little bit of aid even if your income is more than 220K. At the other end of the spectrum: if your HH income is below 70K, you are free or almost free to attend. The trick though is to get in.

Submitted by Dukehorn on October 21, 2014 - 2:19pm.

I would beg to differ on whether it's that important to start at an Ivy if you have plans for grad school or professional school. What's important is to end up at an Ivy type institution eventually. What's the point of shelling out 160k at an Ivy if you can't get into med school (see my younger brother)? I went to a public university on scholarship and then into a top 10 law school with my first year covered by a scholarship.

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 4:41pm.

Well, according to my kid who is currently finishing their sophomore year at a CSU in LA County, their close friends who started at SWC (a CC in Chula Vista, CA) have all splintered away, except for one, who has followed all the rules for CSU admission has now been told by their advisor they won't be accepted into SDSU as a junior with their soon-to-be-earned "Associate of Transfer Degree" unless they have a CC overall GPA of 3.94!

http://adegreewithaguarantee.com/

So, now that the bar for entry for SDSU as a local transfer student is even higher (it was a ~3.6 GPA two years ago), this student/good friend of my kid's now has a "worthless" AST Degree (not applicable to any occupations such as medical billing assistant, paralegal or Network Technician, etc) unless they are able to afford housing to attend a CSU campus out-of-county. So the kid has decided to shadow a parent who is a RE salesperson after they graduate this month and study for their RE salesperson license (which they could have done right out of HS). The other HS friends of my kid who attend SWC out of HS (predictably) went down to part-time (even one class at a time) this year and increased their work hours (local, min wage jobs) due partly to the inability to get the classes they needed when they needed them and partly to not being able to see a way out of the county to attend university (without parents/relatives being able to help). One friend, who made the Dean's list at SWC last year (in their freshman year) decided to chuck all their freshman-year credits last fall and enrolled in a one-year Medical Assistant ROP program at SWC so she could start working FT ASAP and get benefits. NONE of these kids have any desire to carry student loans.

I just ran across this piece today:

Have UC schools harmed local students with their admission policies? The regents weigh in

Teresa Watanabe
May 10, 2016 5:00 AM

University of California regents are expected to weigh in Tuesday on a scathing state audit that said UC schools have harmed local students by admitting too many out-of-state and international applicants.

UC President Janet Napolitano blasted the audit when it was released in March. She said it was unfair and glossed over the fact that out-of-state students supported the 10-campus system by paying higher tuition than California residents — an extra $728 million in fiscal year 2014 alone. That money helped campuses increase enrollment of in-state students despite the fact that the system lost one-third of its funding after the 2008 recession, Napolitano said.

"In many instances throughout the report, (the audit) drew inferences or conclusions, or limited its findings to a subset of data, that led to a critical misunderstanding of the facts," according to a memo from Napolitano's office to the regents.

But state auditor Elaine Howle has stood by the report. The audit offers several recommendations for changing UC's admissions policies, including stricter entrance requirements for nonresident students, a cap on their enrollment and more focus on recruiting Californians — particularly African Americans, Latinos and other underrepresented minorities.

UC officials are required to report their progress in implementing the recommendations after 60 days, six months and one year from the report date. The regents will get their first chance to publicly discuss the issue at their three-day meeting, which opens Tuesday in Sacramento....

(emphasis mine)

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...

Are we surprised?? President Napolitano has the gall to admit what we all have known for a l-o-o-o-ong time. That is, the UC favors OOC and OOS students because they pay the full ride, plain and simple. Money talks and other stuff walks .... nevermind that a large portion of in-state UC applicants' parents pay a boatload of taxes to this state.

It's unfortunate, because other states give preference to in-state student applications, especially in attempt to give rural dwellers a fair shake at acceptance, since they didn't have nearly as many HS opportunities as city dwellers (i.e. oppty for CC credits, AP credits, IB contract, etc). Unlike other states' flagship universities, with just 1-3 campuses, UC has TEN CAMPUSES! In my mind, there is no excuse for giving away as many slots as they are to foreign and out-of-state applicants!

I hope the UC is put on the hotseat with the state audit to change their ways but somehow, I think the Regents will find a way around it by saying that they strived mightily to admit more "minority resident applicants," but alas, only a few were "qualified."

UC admission, more and more, is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 5:01pm.

I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant's essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT ... way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad ... so sad.

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 5:14pm.

Here's 2 articles on the recent state audit of UC Admissions (linked in the article below):

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/uc-au...

Submitted by joec on May 10, 2016 - 5:59pm.

bearishgurl wrote:
I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant's essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT ... way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad ... so sad.

If you think this will happen, I honestly think you would be surprised as the "thousands of Chinese applicants" you state would probably do BETTER than a lot of the Americans applying for the UC or State school spots.

In America, why is it that EVERY english word spelling bee annual contest is won by some Indian guy/gal?
http://spellingbee.com/champions-and-the...

Looks like an American name hasn't won since 2007.

My mom visited China a while back and there are plenty of Chinese who speak English better than many Americans. Again, these are probably the wealthier types, but there are lots of those.

I remember back in my day at UC, I had a college roommate who was not even studying engr, but could do ALL the math/physics stuff I took even though he was just an Econ major. At the end of the day, education/school is taken TONS more seriously in all the Asian countries and competing with that here will require a education/union/teacher revolution which isn't going to happen.

At the end of the day, those "Chinese" just want to study at UCs or most elite colleges more than the "typical" American I believe.

Also, with how things are, I recommend people avoid JC if they can or try to go to a private school with some grants/aid to balance the cost.

Submitted by no_such_reality on May 10, 2016 - 6:11pm.

Isn't this a side effect of our primary education system being geared towards everyone goes to college?

Cali has 500,000 kids per grade. At 60% college attempt rate, the UC and CS systems need 1.5 million seats to accommodate.

They currently have enrollment around 700,0000

Submitted by Coronita on May 10, 2016 - 7:39pm.

.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on May 10, 2016 - 8:07pm.

Haha, Joec, maybe bearish has forgotten that for Indians, English is a native language. Essay writting might give Indians a boost.

I have a friend form Bejing who graduated from a top American university. She was just in SD for a urologist conference over the weekend. She's read all the classics and has impeccable English. She has a foreign accent that some people might find annoying, but grammar and syntax are flawless. Good English requires a lot reading of literature, and that's something American kids don't like to do.

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 8:19pm.

flu wrote:
bearishgurl wrote:
I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant's essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT ... way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad ... so sad.

So you took the ACT back then for college and you think you did better than most foreigners. So how did college work out for you BG?

Yeah, I took it ... and scored a 31. I was admitted to CU - Boulder as well as Cal. But I didn't end up attending university as it turned out to be too expensive for me and I had no one to help. It turned out my parent made $940 too much in my junior year of HS (their latest tax return) for me to qualify for a "BEOG grant" (nka "Pell Grant") as a freshman (which was only worth ~$2K year anyway, and would not have been enough to help with room/board). Student loans did not exist at that time as they do today.

I elected to work FT right out of HS and go to state college in the city where I lived and worked. I ended up never graduating from CC after attending 4 state colleges/CCs in two states (one class at a time but not every semester) over a period of about 15 years, all while working FT. But most of my classes were occupational and did help me on the job, so they weren't wasted. I then got a paralegal certificate (1 yr 500-level program) later in life. I was the only one in my program who did not have a bachelor degree but was admitted based upon atty recommendations from my long work record in the field.

Back then, US university seats occupied by foreign students were of mostly males from oil-rich middle eastern countries who were majoring in engineering. Yes, their fathers paid the full ride for them to attend US universities such as OU (petroleum engineering), CU Boulder and Cal, including renting them nice local apts or even houses for off-campus housing. These families didn't waste money on a daughter's education because females in those countries were brought up to be oppressed, covered up and subservient to men. The US didn't have the influx of Asian university students as there is today. The few foreign students attending US universities were nearly all middle-eastern males.

My personal experience and the fact that CA CC's are no longer funded well enough to guarantee a student the correct classes to transfer to a UC/CSU in 2 years (or even guarantee them admission into a UC/CSU at all) are the reasons why I pushed my kids directly into university (out of county) after HS. It was the right choice. In CA, it's MUCH easier to get accepted as a freshman straight out of HS than it is as an incoming junior out of CC (ESP if your parent(s) elect to NOT file a FAFSA). My kid(s) are successful and my youngest is on their way to being successful in life.

Submitted by an on May 10, 2016 - 9:27pm.

bearishgurl wrote:
I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant's essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT ... way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad ... so sad.


LoL, in your dreams.

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 9:46pm.

no_such_reality wrote:
Isn't this a side effect of our primary education system being geared towards everyone goes to college?

Cali has 500,000 kids per grade. At 60% college attempt rate, the UC and CS systems need 1.5 million seats to accommodate.

They currently have enrollment around 700,0000

Well, if the same percentage holds true for the CSU, that means that roughly 15.5% of 700,000 public university seats in the state (108,500) are going to out-of-state and out-of-country students each and every year with incoming OOS/OOC applicants replacing those who graduated. (I suspect this percentage varies wildly by campus as I can't imagine OOC and OOS applicants are clamoring to get accepted into campuses located in CA's "armpits," (ex: Bakersfield, Fresno, Merced and Chico).)

The story below is ridiculous. By all accounts, this applicant should have gotten accepted into the UC ... yes, even to the "flagships." Perhaps she was only offered Merced for being in the top 9% of her class and so elected to take the 4-year full-ride scholarship offered to her on the east coast ... and I don't blame her. She's apparently "good enough for full ride at an Ivy" ... but not given the time of day at UC in her home state!

UC schools harm local students by admitting so many from out of state, audit finds

As a student at South Pasadena High School, Katherine Uriarte aced six Advanced Placement classes, got top scores on her ACT, served in student government and nailed a summer internship at Caltech.

It wasn't enough to get into UCLA or UC Berkeley.

The daughter of a Mexican immigrant, Uriarte still realized her dream of becoming the first in her family to go to college. She is now a freshman at Columbia University in New York City with a full-ride scholarship from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. But she said she felt Californians like herself were losing out to a growing tide of students from other states and countries who want to go to UC schools.

“I think they should prioritize California students,” she said.

A new state audit agrees ....

UC officials insist that nonresident students don't displace Californians. Instead, they say, the nearly $25,000 in additional tuition that nonresidents pay each year has allowed UC to enroll thousands more California students than the system could otherwise afford. Tuition and fees for out-of-state students totaled $38,108 this academic year, compared with $13,400 for in-state students.

Without the extra money from out-of-state students, Californians could have faced an additional $2,500 in tuition — a roughly 20% boost, Napolitano said.

Tuition and fees have doubled since the 2008 recession, but have remained flat — except for one fee increase — for the last five years as part of an agreement between Napolitano and Gov. Jerry Brown that sent more than $3 billion in new dollars to the UC system.

In a separate deal, UC agreed to admit 5,000 additional California students for the fall 2016 term in exchange for $25 million more and a continued lid on tuition increases.

“Providing adequate state funding is the best way to increase the number of California students enrolled at UC,” said a special report on admissions and finances released Tuesday by university officials in anticipation of the audit...

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...

Essentially, the UC is claiming that they need more state funding to admit in-state residents and the presence of OOS/OOC students actually make it possible for them to admit more in-state residents. It seems here as if our native Cali kids are considered "charity cases" or "less than optimal picks for admission" by the Regents due to our much lower tuition fees than OOS students pay (all students pay the same campus fees and UC/CSU fees).

By the Numbers Audit accuses University of California of favoring out-of-state students

In state chart

A scathing new state audit accuses the University of California of hurting in-state students by increasingly admitting applicants from outside the Golden State. The proportion of out-of-state students has grown from about 5% of the student body in 2008 to 15.5% today.

More in-state applicants

Despite an increase in applications from in-state students, the University of California’s resident undergraduate enrollment has remained flat.

Out of state chart

Out-of-state-undergrads on the rise

The number of out-of-state undergraduates has more than tripled since 2008. UC officials said they increased nonresident students, who pay an extra $25,000 in tuition per year, to allow them to accept more Californians in the face of massive budget cuts imposed after the 2008 recession.

Here's the actual report of the audit:

http://documents.latimes.com/report-uc-a...

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 9:50pm.

AN wrote:
bearishgurl wrote:
I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant's essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT ... way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad ... so sad.


LoL, in your dreams.

So, AN, are you saying here that you don't think the essay portion of the SAT/ACT will ever be brought back into consideration for admission into the UC/CSU?

Submitted by bearishgurl on May 10, 2016 - 10:12pm.

Umm, Napolitano resigned as Secretary of the Dept of Homeland Security under Pres. Obama in 2013, after 4 years service .... only to immediately take the post of President of the UC!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Napo...

She has quite the colorful and rather "distinguished" background.

She voluntarily? leaves one top job which focused on keeping foreigners OUT of the country only to migrate over to Cali and take UC's top job making sure the seats at its most coveted campuses are regularly filled up with .... drumroll ... foreign students. Go figure.

The Regents must have hired her "skill-sets" for the sole purpose of bringing in more OOS tuition $$$ as they had already been gearing up their admissions of far more foreign student-applicants by the time of her hire.

Submitted by an on May 10, 2016 - 10:16pm.

bearishgurl wrote:
AN wrote:
bearishgurl wrote:
I vote that CA re-institute the writing portion on the SAT, ACT and TOEFL and apply the applicant's essay/writing score to their composite score.

This is how it was done when I took the ACT ... way back in the day.

This would most certainly weed out thousands of Chinese applicants, who would fail this portion miserably, causing their composite scores to plummet.

Too bad ... so sad.


LoL, in your dreams.

So, AN, are you saying here that you don't think the essay portion of the SAT/ACT will ever be brought back into consideration for admission into the UC/CSU?

I'm saying that Asian dominated the UC admittance as soon as they remove Affirmative Action, even with essay. If they bring back essay, Asian will still dominate the admittance %. You don't have to look any further than at the HS level. Which group score the highest in standardize testing, have the highest GPA, etc.

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