Deadly New Mexican Flu Virus Sparks Global Pandemic Fear

User Forum Topic
Submitted by partypup on April 24, 2009 - 11:28pm

Not trying to alarm anyone, but if you have to travel I would exercise caution: wash your hands frequently and avoid touching your face. Since this thing looks to be airborne, I would wear a mask to be safe. We won't know for another few days to a week how hairy this will be. What concerns me is that the CDC now says that is too late to contain the virus and prevent its spread in the U.S. If you don't have to visit venues with a lot of people, I wouldn't.

And how weird is it that this is the first-ever hybrid of swine, bird and human flu strains...??? Smells like something that may have escaped from a lab.

Let's just hope that this doesn't turn out to be something that threatens an already dying U.S. economy. Yet another reason to be stocked up on food, water and supplies. Collapse isn't the only threat.

By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer
Fri Apr 24, 7:39 pm ET
MEXICO CITY – A unique strain of swine flu is the suspected killer of dozens of people in Mexico, where authorities closed schools, museums, libraries and theaters in the capital on Friday to try to contain an outbreak that has spurred concerns of a global flu epidemic.
The worrisome new virus — which combines genetic material from pigs, birds and humans in a way researchers have not seen before — also sickened at least eight people in Texas and California, though there have been no deaths in the U.S.
"We are very, very concerned," World Health Organization spokesman Thomas Abraham said. "We have what appears to be a novel virus and it has spread from human to human ... It's all hands on deck at the moment."
The outbreak caused alarm in Mexico, where more than 1,000 people have been sickened. Residents of the capital donned surgical masks and authorities ordered the most sweeping shutdown of public gathering places in a quarter century. President Felipe Calderon met with his Cabinet Friday to coordinate Mexico's response.
The WHO was convening an expert panel to consider whether to raise the pandemic alert level or issue travel advisories.
It might already be too late to contain the outbreak, a prominent U.S. pandemic flu expert said late Friday.
Given how quickly flu can spread around the globe, if these are the first signs of a pandemic, then there are probably cases incubating around the world already, said Dr. Michael Osterholm at the University of Minnesota.
In Mexico City, "literally hundreds and thousands of travelers come in and out every day," Osterholm said. "You'd have to believe there's been more unrecognized transmission that's occurred."
There is no vaccine that specifically protects against swine flu, and it was unclear how much protection current human flu vaccines might offer. A "seed stock" genetically matched to the new swine flu virus has been created by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, said Dr. Richard Besser, the agency's acting director. If the government decides vaccine production is necessary, manufacturers would need that stock to get started.
Authorities in Mexico urged people to avoid hospitals unless they had a medical emergency, since hospitals are centers of infection. They also said Mexicans should refrain from customary greetings such as shaking hands or kissing cheeks. At Mexico City's international airport, passengers were questioned to try to prevent anyone with flu symptoms from boarding airplanes and spreading the disease.
Epidemiologists are particularly concerned because the only fatalities so far were in young people and adults.
The eight U.S. victims recovered from symptoms that were like those of the regular flu, mostly fever, cough and sore throat, though some also experienced vomiting and diarrhea.
U.S. health officials announced an outbreak notice to travelers, urging caution and frequent handwashing, but stopping short of telling Americans to avoid Mexico.
Mexico's Health Secretary Jose Angel Cordoba said 68 people have died of flu and the new swine flu strain had been confirmed in 20 of those deaths. At least 1,004 people nationwide were sick from the suspected flu, he said.
The geographical spread of the outbreaks also concerned the WHO — while 13 of the 20 deaths were in Mexico City, the rest were spread across Mexico — four in central San Luis Potosi, two up near the U.S. border in Baja California, and one in southern Oaxaca state.
Scientists have long been concerned that a new flu virus could launch a worldwide pandemic of a killer disease. A new virus could evolve when different flu viruses infect a pig, a person or a bird, mingling their genetic material. The resulting hybrid could spread quickly because people would have no natural defenses against it.
Still, flu experts were concerned but not alarmed about the latest outbreak.
"We've seen swine influenza in humans over the past several years, and in most cases, it's come from direct pig contact. This seems to be different," said Dr. Arnold Monto, a flu expert with the University of Michigan.
"I think we need to be careful and not apprehensive, but certainly paying attention to new developments as they proceed."
The CDC says two flu drugs, Tamiflu and Relenza, seem effective against the new strain. Roche, the maker of Tamiflu, said the company is prepared to immediately deploy a stockpile of the drug if requested.
Both drugs must be taken early, within a few days of the onset of symptoms, to be most effective.
Cordoba said Mexico has enough Tamiflu to treat 1 million people, but the medicine will be strictly controlled and handed out only by doctors.
Mexico's government had maintained until late Thursday that there was nothing unusual about the flu cases, although this year's flu season had been worse and longer than past years.
The sudden turnaround by public health officials angered many Mexicans.
"They could have stopped it in time," said Araceli Cruz, 24, a university student who emerged from the subway wearing a surgical mask. "Now they've let it spread to other people."
The city was handing out free surgical masks to passengers on buses and the subway system, which carries 5 million people each day. Government workers were ordered to wear the masks, and authorities urged residents to stay home from work if they felt ill.
Closing schools across Mexico's capital of 20 million kept 6.1 million students home, as well as thousands of university students. All state and city-run cultural activities were suspended, including libraries, state-run theaters, and at least 14 museums. Private athletic clubs closed down and soccer leagues were considering canceling weekend games.
The closures were the first citywide shutdown of public gathering places since millions died in the devastating 1985 earthquake.
Mexico's response brought to mind other major outbreaks, such as when SARS hit Asia. At its peak in 2003, Beijing shuttered schools, cinemas and restaurants, and thousands of people were quarantined at home.
In March 2008, Hong Kong ordered more than a half-million students to stay home for two weeks because of a flu outbreak. It was the first such closure in Hong Kong since the outbreak of SARS, or severe acute respiratory syndrome.
"It's great they are taking precautions," said Lillian Molina, a teacher at the Montessori's World preschool in Mexico City, who scrubbed down empty classrooms with Clorox, soap and Lysol between fielding calls from worried parents.
U.S. health officials said the outbreak is not yet a reason for alarm in the United States. The five people sickened in California and three in Texas have all recovered.
It's unclear how the eight, who became ill between late March and mid-April, contracted the virus because none were in contact with pigs, which is how people usually catch swine flu. And only a few were in contact with each other.
CDC officials described the virus as having a unique combination of gene segments not seen before in people or pigs. The bug contains human virus, avian virus from North America and pig viruses from North America, Europe and Asia. It may be completely new, or it may have been around for a while and was only detected now through improved testing and surveillance, CDC officials said.
The most notorious flu pandemic is thought to have killed at least 40 million people worldwide in 1918-19. Two other, less deadly flu pandemics struck in 1957 and 1968.
____

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090424/ap_o...

"Deadly new flu strain erupts in Mexico, U.S."

"The CDC's Besser said it was probably too late to contain the outbreak. 'There are things that we see that suggest that containment is not very likely,' he said. 'Once it has spread beyond a limited geographical area it would be difficult to control.'"

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticN...

"Possible Swine Flu Outbreak At NYC Prep School"

http://wcco.com/health/swine.flu.nyc.2.9...

Submitted by nostradamus on April 25, 2009 - 12:56am.

Ok who unleashed the pigg virus too early??? I thought we were gonna wait.

Seriously I TOLD you to get a bio-hazard suit to go with your gold and ammo and ark. Didn't I TELL you?

Submitted by Eugene on April 25, 2009 - 1:19am.

There were already five known cases of this thing in San Diego. The best precaution is to stay home and avoid public areas. Stock up on frozen food before s**t hits the fan. Mexico City is already up to 1000 incidents. Most San Diego incidents were unrelated and date back to late March - early April. The number of infected people is much higher now. I wouldn't be surprised if San Diego is into hundreds by June.

The mortality rate in Mexico was so far ~5% among healthy young people. Fortunately, the virus is known to be susceptible to oseltamivir (Tamiflu) and we can expect the government to help out if there are shortages of the medication. Just to be safe, you might want to get some yourself. It's prescription-only in the US but freely available in Tijuana. Get some now before border pharmacies jack up prices.

Submitted by blahblahblah on April 25, 2009 - 9:14am.

Looks like they succeeded in getting this thing out after all. They had a little scare in February of this year, when the World Health Organization caught them distributing flu "vaccine" that contained live bird flu virus organisms, but that didn't stop them.

Of course this is terrible news for the world, but great news for certain groups of well-connected individuals with a stake in Gilead Pharmaceuticals, the makers of Tamiflu.

So yes, be VERY AFRAID of what your TV is telling you! Better get out there and stock up on some Tamiflu! Get some duct tape and plastic sheeting while you're at it.

Submitted by Arraya on April 25, 2009 - 10:13am.

The BBC is publishing firsthand accounts of folks who email them from Mexico. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point...

I work as a resident doctor in one of the biggest hospitals in Mexico City and sadly, the situation is far from "under control". As a doctor, I realise that the media does not report the truth. Authorities distributed vaccines among all the medical personnel with no results, because two of my partners who worked in this hospital (interns) were killed by this new virus in less than six days even though they were vaccinated as all of us were. The official number of deaths is 20, nevertheless, the true number of victims are more than 200. I understand that we must avoid to panic, but telling the truth it might be better now to prevent and avoid more deaths.

Yeny Gregorio Dávila, Mexico City

Submitted by partypup on April 25, 2009 - 4:45pm.

Arraya wrote:
The BBC is publishing firsthand accounts of folks who email them from Mexico. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point...

I work as a resident doctor in one of the biggest hospitals in Mexico City and sadly, the situation is far from "under control". As a doctor, I realise that the media does not report the truth. Authorities distributed vaccines among all the medical personnel with no results, because two of my partners who worked in this hospital (interns) were killed by this new virus in less than six days even though they were vaccinated as all of us were. The official number of deaths is 20, nevertheless, the true number of victims are more than 200. I understand that we must avoid to panic, but telling the truth it might be better now to prevent and avoid more deaths.

Yeny Gregorio Dávila, Mexico City

Thanks for that link, Arraya. Even if this current strain isn't incredibly deadly, the concern is always that a mutated strain may emerge that is more virulent.

The timing of this potential pandemic couldn't be worse. Stores and industries that have been hanging on by a thread may now have to deal with even lower traffic...and this can't be good news for the travel industry.

I have to say, this would be an ingenious and convenient way to explain a collapse. Obama: "My bold and aggressive stimulus plan WOULD have worked, had it not been for the pandemic -- which, like my predecessor's deficit, I had nothing whatsoever to do with."

Submitted by afx114 on April 25, 2009 - 6:50pm.

Of course it's all Obama's fault.

I think I had this flu last week, and it was a doozy!

Submitted by Enorah on April 25, 2009 - 7:04pm.

And the fear machine continues.

Submitted by peterb on April 25, 2009 - 7:15pm.

A guy BO met with in Mex City died the next day. I wonder if he had it? I think he was an older guy, though.

Submitted by NotCranky on April 25, 2009 - 7:25pm.

20 people or 200 people could easily die in Mexico City of practically anything...anytime.Some of them died, a quite high percentage actually, only six days after receiving the vaccine...Hmmmmm. I think I'll pass.
Many poor souls there are on the verge of starvation and are exposed to many contamination issues. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to surmise that catastrophic events will come out of this. Of course, I always say that.

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on April 25, 2009 - 7:26pm.

peterb wrote:
A guy BO met with in Mex City died the next day. I wonder if he had it? I think he was an older guy, though.

Barack Obama is SPREADING the illness?!? Sweet Jesus! Those perfidious Democrats will stop at nothing!

Submitted by Enorah on April 25, 2009 - 7:47pm.

My favorite immune boosters

Colloidal Silver

and

Lemon Extract in an oil base, not alcohol (yes, the cooking ingredient) - dosage: 2 tsp mixed in water or juice

Submitted by afx114 on April 25, 2009 - 7:55pm.

Enorah wrote:
My favorite immune boosters

Scotch.

Submitted by Arraya on April 25, 2009 - 8:20pm.

Actually, my fiancee is a clinical pharmacist at the local hospital that treated the first two cases here in SD. Just a pretty nasty flu at this point. Though, flu is able to evolve via recombination and reassortment.

This is in Kansas, California, and Texas, and New York, apparently. This leaves Green Bay, and you'll have covered every side of the US. The incubation period is 3-5 days, so all those kids in NYC, who coughed on their hands, then opened the store door, which was then opened by the Janitor on his way to the Bank Building where he cleaned offices all day, which were then occupied by bankers, some of whom stopped by the office to get a bit of work done before catching a flight to Anytown USA for a sales meeting...

It's in the US, and has made it to hundreds. If it is going to be bad, the dye is cast, and we should know by Friday at the latest.

Submitted by no_such_reality on April 25, 2009 - 8:51pm.

Except the initial cases were sick in March.

And the 'flu' has been ripping through the US left and right since March. It was on the headlines back at the beginning of April that a late resurgence of the flu hit.

I suspect that the 'flu' many already had is the flu the media is having pandamonium pandemic panic about.

Submitted by partypup on April 25, 2009 - 10:54pm.

afx114 wrote:
Of course it's all Obama's fault.

LOL. I didn't say this was Obama's fault; I just said that if it ended up accelerating this downturn, it would be a happy coincidence for those who will soon have to explain how and why the U.S. economy ended up collapsing in spite of all the trillions that have been spent to "save" it.

Now, go back and sip your Kool Aid. And I say that lovingly :-)

Submitted by partypup on April 25, 2009 - 10:57pm.

Enorah wrote:
My favorite immune boosters

Colloidal Silver

and

Lemon Extract in an oil base, not alcohol (yes, the cooking ingredient) - dosage: 2 tsp mixed in water or juice

Good info, Enorah. I had a recurring staph infection in my finger for a year. The doctors told me there was nothing I could do about it but routinely take antibiotics. I went to a homeopathic pharmacy for answers. They advised me to take colloidal silver for 10 days. It killed the staph - no problem. That stuff is a must-have in every medicine cabinet. Cheap and HIGHLY effective.

Submitted by paramount on April 26, 2009 - 2:36am.

The point to remember is this (conspiracies aside): Take reasonable precautions at this point-

Wash hands frequently
Keep a can of Lysol on hand
Keep your distance from sick people
Avoid travel to high incidence areas
Etc....

Submitted by 4plexowner on April 26, 2009 - 4:45am.

"happy coincidence for those who will soon have to explain how and why the U.S. economy ended up collapsing in spite of all the trillions that have been spent to "save" it"

let's see, economy collapsing in 2000/2001

what happened?

economy collapsing in 2008/2009

what happened?

Submitted by afx114 on April 26, 2009 - 9:58am.

partypup wrote:
Now, go back and sip your Kool Aid. And I say that lovingly :-)

Kool Aid is bad for you. I'll go back to drinking my horchata, thank you very much.

Submitted by NotCranky on April 26, 2009 - 10:19am.

On the topic of Swine.

Whatever you all do, do not search you tube for "why not to eat pork" videos"...especially if you like pork.

Submitted by partypup on April 26, 2009 - 1:27pm.

4plexowner wrote:

let's see, economy collapsing in 2000/2001

what happened?

Uh...Who was predicting a collapse in 2000/01? Not me. Sorry.

4plexowner wrote:
economy collapsing in 2008/2009

what happened?

What happened?? Dude, look around you. It's happening now. Insolvent banks. Rampant bankruptcies. 20% real unemployment. Are you looking for the little CNN banner running across the bottom of your TV screen saying, "Breaking News: U.S. Economy in Collapse"? LOL.

Anyway, back to the flu. My only point is that when the economy finally deteriorates to the point that Americans start pointing fingers at Obama and IF this flu continues to spread with the virulent effects seen in Mexico, it would be a convenient way for him to explain why the downturn was exacerbated. This isn't rocket science, and it's hardly a controversial statement. Do you have a response to that argument, or do you just want to dwell on the fact that you haven't seen the CNN banner on your TV alerting you that we are in deep shit?

Submitted by Coronita on April 26, 2009 - 1:34pm.

partypup wrote:
4plexowner wrote:

let's see, economy collapsing in 2000/2001

what happened?

Uh...Who was predicting a collapse in 2000/01? Not me. Sorry.

4plexowner wrote:
economy collapsing in 2008/2009

what happened?

What happened?? Dude, look around you. It's happening now. Insolvent banks. Rampant bankruptcies. 20% real unemployment. Are you looking for the little CNN banner running across the bottom of your TV screen saying, "Breaking News: U.S. Economy in Collapse"? LOL.

Anyway, back to the flu. My only point is that when the economy finally deteriorates to the point that Americans start pointing fingers at Obama and IF this flu continues to spread with the virulent effects seen in Mexico, it would be a convenient way for him to explain why the downturn was exacerbated. This isn't rocket science, and it's hardly a controversial statement. Do you have a response to that argument, or do you just want to dwell on the fact that you haven't seen the CNN banner on your TV alerting you that we are in deep shit?

Partypup...I think you would enjoy reading about john titor....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor

http://www.johntitor.com/Pages/Story.html

Though the pandemic that was described was Mad Cow, not Swine Flu
Makes for a B- rated science fiction movie imho.

Submitted by afx114 on April 26, 2009 - 1:37pm.

Just to clarify: your argument is that Obama may or may not argue something depending on whether the economy does or does not collapse and whether this flu does or does not become a major epidemic? Way to go out on a limb there!

I believe we have a phrase to describe this kind of thinking: "Grasping at straws."

Submitted by Allan from Fallbrook on April 26, 2009 - 1:57pm.

flu wrote:
partypup wrote:
4plexowner wrote:

let's see, economy collapsing in 2000/2001

what happened?

Uh...Who was predicting a collapse in 2000/01? Not me. Sorry.

4plexowner wrote:
economy collapsing in 2008/2009

what happened?

What happened?? Dude, look around you. It's happening now. Insolvent banks. Rampant bankruptcies. 20% real unemployment. Are you looking for the little CNN banner running across the bottom of your TV screen saying, "Breaking News: U.S. Economy in Collapse"? LOL.

Anyway, back to the flu. My only point is that when the economy finally deteriorates to the point that Americans start pointing fingers at Obama and IF this flu continues to spread with the virulent effects seen in Mexico, it would be a convenient way for him to explain why the downturn was exacerbated. This isn't rocket science, and it's hardly a controversial statement. Do you have a response to that argument, or do you just want to dwell on the fact that you haven't seen the CNN banner on your TV alerting you that we are in deep shit?

Partypup...I think you would enjoy reading about john titor....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor

http://www.johntitor.com/Pages/Story.html

Though the pandemic that was described was Mad Cow, not Swine Flu
Makes for a B- rated science fiction movie imho.

FLU: Wow! Your post has it all! Mad Cow Disease, quantum physics, teleportation devices built into the back of a Corvette and worldwide nuclear war.

I was going to post something pithy about avoiding carnitas burritos, but the hell with that now.

Submitted by patientrenter on April 26, 2009 - 2:07pm.

Enorah wrote:
And the fear machine continues.

+1.

How much of our news is just overplaying our fears? It has more in common with watching a slasher movie than any actual education about the broader world. But I know, the slasher movies are very popular, so never mind, and enjoy the show!

Submitted by paramount on April 26, 2009 - 2:23pm.

I'm with flu, we did have an economic collapse that was already in progress with the housing bust, then $150 oil set off the inferno.

We are on life support, that's the only thing that stopped an all out collapse. And even then, it's probably only been delayed.

But most of us already know this....

Submitted by partypup on April 26, 2009 - 3:38pm.

afx114 wrote:
Just to clarify: your argument is that Obama may or may not argue something depending on whether the economy does or does not collapse and whether this flu does or does not become a major epidemic? Way to go out on a limb there!

I believe we have a phrase to describe this kind of thinking: "Grasping at straws."

Just to clarify: your attempt to clarify my argument is wrong. But nice try.

Once again, I will try to be clear, since my statement seems to be fascinating you: this economy is going to collapse. Period. The precursors of a collapse are already in place. My point is that when (not if) a collapse occurs, and IF the flu becomes more virulent, it will be a talking point by this administration for explaining how and why the collapse occurred. No one in any administration (and yes, afx, that would include the Bush or Clinton administrations) wants to admit that the collapse was inevitable and has been on track since 1971.

Your unrelenting defense of Obama prevents you from understanding that my comment is more generic and not specifically directed toward this administration. If McCain had won, he wouldn't want to admit that our government's bone-headed spending policies have led us to disaster. No one wants to admit that. Scapegoats are always more convenient. If a war breaks out between Israel and Iran leading to an oil embargo or skyrocketing oil prices, that would also be used as a talking point to explain why a collapse occurred. Any and all excuses will be used if they are available. This is the way of politics. And yes, your Messiah - despite all the trappings - is still a politician like all the other hacks who have preceded him. Is that so difficult to understand?

Submitted by Coronita on April 26, 2009 - 4:19pm.

Allan from Fallbrook wrote:
flu wrote:
partypup wrote:
4plexowner wrote:

let's see, economy collapsing in 2000/2001

what happened?

Uh...Who was predicting a collapse in 2000/01? Not me. Sorry.

4plexowner wrote:
economy collapsing in 2008/2009

what happened?

What happened?? Dude, look around you. It's happening now. Insolvent banks. Rampant bankruptcies. 20% real unemployment. Are you looking for the little CNN banner running across the bottom of your TV screen saying, "Breaking News: U.S. Economy in Collapse"? LOL.

Anyway, back to the flu. My only point is that when the economy finally deteriorates to the point that Americans start pointing fingers at Obama and IF this flu continues to spread with the virulent effects seen in Mexico, it would be a convenient way for him to explain why the downturn was exacerbated. This isn't rocket science, and it's hardly a controversial statement. Do you have a response to that argument, or do you just want to dwell on the fact that you haven't seen the CNN banner on your TV alerting you that we are in deep shit?

Partypup...I think you would enjoy reading about john titor....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor

http://www.johntitor.com/Pages/Story.html

Though the pandemic that was described was Mad Cow, not Swine Flu
Makes for a B- rated science fiction movie imho.

FLU: Wow! Your post has it all! Mad Cow Disease, quantum physics, teleportation devices built into the back of a Corvette and worldwide nuclear war.

I was going to post something pithy about avoiding carnitas burritos, but the hell with that now.

It makes for an interesting story, imho. I was entertained. Initially disturbed, but now just entertained. I guess we're on the alternative "parallel" universe for which the events didn't occur. Namely, civil war in 2004, cancellation of olympic games.

I do think Mad Cow is going to be a big problem though.

Shit happens, some people are going to die. Oh well. It's fate and destiny. Reminds me of some dude in L.A. pre-ordered a bullet proof mercedes benz because he was afraid of the random freeway shootings that was happening a few years back...The day the guy goes to pick up the mercedes from the dealership, he's shot and killed on the freeway by a driveby.... Disclaimer. I remember reading this on the internet awhile back. Could be an urban legend though.

Submitted by partypup on April 26, 2009 - 5:06pm.

flu wrote:
partypup wrote:
4plexowner wrote:

let's see, economy collapsing in 2000/2001

what happened?

Uh...Who was predicting a collapse in 2000/01? Not me. Sorry.

4plexowner wrote:
economy collapsing in 2008/2009

what happened?

What happened?? Dude, look around you. It's happening now. Insolvent banks. Rampant bankruptcies. 20% real unemployment. Are you looking for the little CNN banner running across the bottom of your TV screen saying, "Breaking News: U.S. Economy in Collapse"? LOL.

Anyway, back to the flu. My only point is that when the economy finally deteriorates to the point that Americans start pointing fingers at Obama and IF this flu continues to spread with the virulent effects seen in Mexico, it would be a convenient way for him to explain why the downturn was exacerbated. This isn't rocket science, and it's hardly a controversial statement. Do you have a response to that argument, or do you just want to dwell on the fact that you haven't seen the CNN banner on your TV alerting you that we are in deep shit?

Partypup...I think you would enjoy reading about john titor....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Titor

http://www.johntitor.com/Pages/Story.html

Though the pandemic that was described was Mad Cow, not Swine Flu
Makes for a B- rated science fiction movie imho.

Flu: Interesting links. Thanks for sharing. While it is, of course, debatable as to whether John really was who he says he was (his claims are fairly detailed, but I would require more proof), I do envision and hope for a future along the lines of what he is describing. I don't believe in an apocalypse, and I don't believe the people in this country are all doomed to die and fail. I think our priorities are about to be re-adjusted on a massive scale, and some may see that as apocalyptic. I just see it as "change you can believe in" ;-)

This line resonated with me: "You should probably know that this time (i.e. 2000-01 and arguably 2001-09) is not remembered for its selflessness, charity or ability to work together." Hopefully in a future time mankind will be remembered for the qualities and virtues that it currently lacks.

Submitted by paramount on April 26, 2009 - 5:53pm.

I take it I'm not the only Art Bell/Coast To Coast listener on the Pigg board?

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