Back to the Office for Tech Workers

User Forum Topic
Submitted by deadzone on February 23, 2022 - 2:35pm

Covid is over now for all intents and purposes. Amazon announced return to the office (3 days a week) and no longer requiring vaccine.

You knew this was coming, other large tech companies will follow suite. This change in addition to tech stocks getting absolutely hammered in the stock market this year will pretty much put an end to the "Bay area tech worker moving to ___ for remote work".

Just another ominous sign for the housing market along with rapidly rising interest rates. Anybody flipping houses now is going to get rammed hard. I think Zillow was wise to get out of that business when they did.

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 6:52pm.

FormerSanDiegan][quote=deadzone wrote:
You can't compare the 70s to today. The current asset bubble and subsequent inflation were caused directly by the Federal Reserve QE policy which has only existed since 2009. This was an experimental policy intended to recover from the 2008 financial crisis (and with real purpose to bail out the bankers and wealthy elite). But they clearly took this QE too far and the entire economy has been addicted to the Fed like a crack whore ever since. Then the Fed went into hyperdrive during Covid when the Fed nearly doubled their balance sheet in less than 2 years

Sorry, there is nothing in the history of monetary policy that compares what the Fed has done with QE. So if they do in fact reverse course, it will be an absolute blood bath in the markets.

Submitted by an on March 7, 2022 - 6:54pm.

deadzone wrote:
Sorry, there is nothing in the history of monetary policy that compares what the Fed has done with QE. So if they do in fact reverse course, it will be an absolute blood bath in the markets.

I doubt that would happen. So, IMHO, you're talking about the improbable probability.

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 6:59pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
deadzone wrote:
Gold was under $1000 in 2009. And it was a good investment. In hindsight sure RE would have been better investment. But hindsight is 20/20. And frankly I am not and never was interested in being a landlord so it is a moot point and under no circumstances would I have been interested in living in a suburban NC housing tract.

Anyway, the point now is to address the current situation and possible bubble popping. My personal investment decisions 10+ years ago are completely irrelevant to the current situation. Not sure why you insist on bringing that up other than to deflect from your fear of the prospect of a market crash? I really don't understand why the idea of it bothers you so much.

It doesn’t bother me at all. Why you might ask? Well the Answer is those personal investment decisions made 10-20 years ago that you think are irrelevant and I know are life altering. And you could’ve bought anything anywhere. I only use NC tract houses because that’s where I live. Had you bought anything anywhere here you would’ve capitalized on the opportunity of a lifetime

Jesus f-ing Christ you are a broken record. The current financial situation in the world has nothing to do with me or any financial decisions I made or did not make. I am one person out of billions. It is just so important for you to make everything personal. It is not about me. The market will crash with or without my cheerleading, just like the bubble was inflated with our without your cheerleading.

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 7:01pm.

Well if the Fed does not reverse course, at least my gold will go through the roof in that scenario. But we'll see within a matter of months, just how well Americans can handle this level of inflation before there is chaos in the streets.

Submitted by an on March 7, 2022 - 7:12pm.

deadzone wrote:
Well if the Fed does not reverse course, at least my gold will go through the roof in that scenario. But we'll see within a matter of months, just how well Americans can handle this level of inflation before there is chaos in the streets.

Inflation was much worst in the 70s and the American people handled it for many years. We barely just got started.

Submitted by Coronita on March 7, 2022 - 7:33pm.

deadzone wrote:
Gold was under $1000 in 2009. And it was a good investment. In hindsight sure RE would have been better investment. But hindsight is 20/20. And frankly I am not and never was interested in being a landlord so it is a moot point and under no circumstances would I have been interested in living in a suburban NC housing tract.

Anyway, the point now is to address the current situation and possible bubble popping. My personal investment decisions 10+ years ago are completely irrelevant to the current situation. Not sure why you insist on bringing that up other than to deflect from your fear of the prospect of a market crash? I really don't understand why the idea of it bothers you so much.

It's really convenient you picked Gold price in 2009 because that doesn't tell the entire story of gold. Gold was $1000 in the beginning of 2008, dipped as low as $750 and ended 2008 around $800ish. In 2009, it bounced around $1000/ounce throughout 2/3 of 2009 and towards the end of 2009 there was a lot of gold speculation by folks that we running for cover to safety that pushed gold prices at the end of 2009 to $1200/ouce before settling somewhere around $1150...Gold hit peak prices in middle of 2011 around $1900/ounce... But since hitting that peak middle of 2011, gold went into a decline from 2011 to 2016 when it hit $1050/ounce.

Between 2016-2019, gold didn't do shit. It moved between $1100-$1400/ounce back and forth.

It reached another peak in the middle of 2020, around $2100/ounce before falling back and now hovers around $2000....

You only made sizable gains on gold if you market timed and sold close to the peaks, but holding long term, it hasn't really done that well relative to everything else...

goldgold

It's not really that great of an investment. It's "safe", but falls well short of what the stock market and real estate markets did...no doubt about that.... For example, here's a subset of what prices of 1 ounce bullion was. It's not that great of an appreciation.

gldgld

Also, I don't know about you. But unless you spend money to store your physical gold in an escrow account, it's a pain in the ass to store it at home....

Also, oil is only good because of the war. It was in decline. You're market timing...versus people like my parents my parents who had CVX since the time Texaco filed for bankruptcy in 1985 and keep them for the good dividends. Which is a great thing..

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 7:47pm.

yes gold is not a convenient investment and really is more of an insurance policy in case the Fed goes totally rogue. That's in fact why I loaded up on it at that point, because Fed was going rogue in 2009 with QE, bailouts, etc. Well it turns out Fed got away with parabolic money printing for about 12 years. Their run of luck does appear to be running out. You knew it couldn't last forever.

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 7:48pm.

an wrote:
deadzone wrote:
Well if the Fed does not reverse course, at least my gold will go through the roof in that scenario. But we'll see within a matter of months, just how well Americans can handle this level of inflation before there is chaos in the streets.

Inflation was much worst in the 70s and the American people handled it for many years. We barely just got started.

Yeah and the stock market is already tanking with just a hint of mild interest rate increases on the horizon. Again, nothing even comparable to the 70s.

Submitted by Coronita on March 7, 2022 - 8:26pm.

deadzone wrote:
yes gold is not a convenient investment and really is more of an insurance policy in case the Fed goes totally rogue. That's in fact why I loaded up on it at that point, because Fed was going rogue in 2009 with QE, bailouts, etc. Well it turns out Fed got away with parabolic money printing for about 12 years. Their run of luck does appear to be running out. You knew it couldn't last forever.

But gold has not performed well. Gold didn't perform well up to and and until the Ukraine/Russia war, which was not predictable. In fact, when the fed announced raising interest rates, gold did not really move that much on that news. Gold moved a lot recently based on the Ukraine/Russia war.

So I guess where gold makes sense is when we have more wars???

Submitted by Coronita on March 7, 2022 - 8:37pm.
Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 9:24pm.

Coronita wrote:
deadzone wrote:
yes gold is not a convenient investment and really is more of an insurance policy in case the Fed goes totally rogue. That's in fact why I loaded up on it at that point, because Fed was going rogue in 2009 with QE, bailouts, etc. Well it turns out Fed got away with parabolic money printing for about 12 years. Their run of luck does appear to be running out. You knew it couldn't last forever.

But gold has not performed well. Gold didn't perform well up to and and until the Ukraine/Russia war, which was not predictable. In fact, when the fed announced raising interest rates, gold did not really move that much on that news. Gold moved a lot recently based on the Ukraine/Russia war.

So I guess where gold makes sense is when we have more wars???

Well gold wasn't doing badly before the war.. but it would mostly take off if Fed does NOT raise interest rates. If Fed actually tightens that should hurt gold in theory. But on the other hand, if fed tightens, the stock market will crash and where would people move their money when they pull it out of stocks? Gold could benefit here too. Who knows, but agree overall Gold has been mildly disappointing but like my baseball cards I like having it and I ain't going to sell it anytime soon.

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 9:26pm.

I love Larry David and Curb, only thing funnier on HBO was Silicon Valley Season 1. That was comedy gold.

Submitted by an on March 7, 2022 - 9:26pm.

deadzone wrote:
an wrote:
deadzone wrote:
Well if the Fed does not reverse course, at least my gold will go through the roof in that scenario. But we'll see within a matter of months, just how well Americans can handle this level of inflation before there is chaos in the streets.

Inflation was much worst in the 70s and the American people handled it for many years. We barely just got started.

Yeah and the stock market is already tanking with just a hint of mild interest rate increases on the horizon. Again, nothing even comparable to the 70s.


That's fine, real estate more than make up for the stock market decline.

Submitted by deadzone on March 7, 2022 - 11:14pm.

There is no way stock market crashes without taking RE market with it, and vice versa. Both bubbles were fueled by the same source.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 8, 2022 - 12:39am.

Talking about broken records. Or is that record broken? So you have poorly preforming gold that’s tracked inflation and the baseball cards you bought in the 70s. Your track record Is stunning Larry

Submitted by an on March 8, 2022 - 7:28am.

deadzone wrote:
There is no way stock market crashes without taking RE market with it, and vice versa. Both bubbles were fueled by the same source.

History says it's very possible. Look at the DOW between 76-82 and see what RE price was between those 6 years. Same goes for 99-2003.

Submitted by deadzone on March 8, 2022 - 9:13am.

an wrote:
deadzone wrote:
There is no way stock market crashes without taking RE market with it, and vice versa. Both bubbles were fueled by the same source.

History says it's very possible. Look at the DOW between 76-82 and see what RE price was between those 6 years. Same goes for 99-2003.

We shall see. But again, those periods were not fueled by 10+ years of continual massive Fed money printing.

Submitted by deadzone on March 8, 2022 - 9:16am.

sdrealtor wrote:
Talking about broken records. Or is that record broken? So you have poorly preforming gold that’s tracked inflation and the baseball cards you bought in the 70s. Your track record Is stunning Larry

Actually I bought most of my vintage cards in 2012/13, mid life crisis thing. So many of those cards have appreciated 4 to 5 times by this point.
Still feeling good about my gold.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 8, 2022 - 10:00am.

deadzone wrote:
sdrealtor wrote:
Talking about broken records. Or is that record broken? So you have poorly preforming gold that’s tracked inflation and the baseball cards you bought in the 70s. Your track record Is stunning Larry

Actually I bought most of my vintage cards in 2012/13, mid life crisis thing. So many of those cards have appreciated 4 to 5 times by this point.
Still feeling good about my gold.

I paid a quarter for mine. A quarter per pack but I really bought them for the gum

Might be time to sell that Alcindor RC

Submitted by Coronita on March 8, 2022 - 10:06am.

Gold is pretty. I like the bling bling.
I might melt mine to make jewelry... :)

Submitted by deadzone on March 8, 2022 - 10:23am.

sdrealtor wrote:
deadzone wrote:
sdrealtor wrote:
Talking about broken records. Or is that record broken? So you have poorly preforming gold that’s tracked inflation and the baseball cards you bought in the 70s. Your track record Is stunning Larry

Actually I bought most of my vintage cards in 2012/13, mid life crisis thing. So many of those cards have appreciated 4 to 5 times by this point.
Still feeling good about my gold.

I paid a quarter for mine. A quarter per pack but I really bought them for the gum

Might be time to sell that Alcindor RC

Well if you aren't attached to it, now would be the time to sell it. But that is a pretty sweet card and great nostalgia so of course you obviously shouldn't and won't. I am far too young to have collected in the 50s and 60s, but I love that era of cards.

Submitted by deadzone on March 8, 2022 - 10:24am.

Coronita wrote:
Gold is pretty. I like the bling bling.
I might melt mine to make jewelry... :)

If you want gold jewelry I'm your guy. Will offer you the piggington discount (wholesale price)

Submitted by Coronita on March 8, 2022 - 10:40am.

deadzone wrote:
Coronita wrote:
Gold is pretty. I like the bling bling.
I might melt mine to make jewelry... :)

If you want gold jewelry I'm your guy. Will offer you the piggington discount (wholesale price)

I like 1 kilo gold bars. If only there was a way to easily tell if they were real or fake and not filled in the center with tungsten...

Most gold jewelry these days are worthless and only 14k gold... Years ago, 18k gold was more acceptable for jewelry...Gold jewelry from the far east (before the communist overran china) use to close to 24k. But 24k jewelry can't really be worn. It's too soft, easily damaged because it's too soft. That was one of the reasons why 18k because popular for jewelry. You won't find much left in 24k these days. Not interested in today's 14k gold jewelry.

Come to think about it, I don't wear any accessories. No, rings, no necklace, no watch. Nothing.

I think a gold plated gun would be cool.. Like one from Face Off.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 8, 2022 - 10:43am.

deadzone wrote:
sdrealtor wrote:
deadzone wrote:
sdrealtor wrote:
Talking about broken records. Or is that record broken? So you have poorly preforming gold that’s tracked inflation and the baseball cards you bought in the 70s. Your track record Is stunning Larry

Actually I bought most of my vintage cards in 2012/13, mid life crisis thing. So many of those cards have appreciated 4 to 5 times by this point.
Still feeling good about my gold.

I paid a quarter for mine. A quarter per pack but I really bought them for the gum

Might be time to sell that Alcindor RC

Well if you aren't attached to it, now would be the time to sell it. But that is a pretty sweet card and great nostalgia so of course you obviously shouldn't and won't. I am far too young to have collected in the 50s and 60s, but I love that era of cards.

I’m not attached to anything besides my kids, my home and my wine

Submitted by deadzone on March 8, 2022 - 10:59am.

Why do you say 14K gold jewelry is worthless? It is worth basically its equivalent weight in gold in proportion to 18K. Can you tell the difference looking at it?
Nowadays with the high price of gold, 10K jewelry is quite common.

Submitted by Coronita on March 8, 2022 - 12:53pm.

deadzone wrote:
Why do you say 14K gold jewelry is worthless? It is worth basically its equivalent weight in gold in proportion to 18K. Can you tell the difference looking at it?
Nowadays with the high price of gold, 10K jewelry is quite common.

I'm not a jewelry expert, so I don't claim to be...But, to me 14k or 10k gold isn't worthless. It's just worth less....a lot less...

I think most 14k jewelry are lousy "investment grade jewelry" because it's meant to be affordable for the average person and meant to look pretty...But it's marked up significantly above how much gold content is in it. If you want to resell it, it's worth about how much gold content is in there, which is a lot less than most originally bought it for. Not in all cases, but in a lot of cases... When jewelry is bought back, often times it's melted down for gold content only. At least that's what one of my friends who owns a jewelry retail store that buys back gold jewelry says. The top dollars she pays is usually the old pieces that come from asia that are 18k and 24k...but again they are mostly melted down.

I think "investment grade" jewelry here in the west are not 10k or 14k gold, they are at least 18k and they are usually associated with a brand or celebrity or both to be worth more than the gold content. You won't find many in that category that are 10k or 14k...And I think if you try to resell them, you'll find out what I'm saying, probably.

That's not to say one shouldn't buy 14k gold pieces for a significant other. They are pretty, and there is a non-financial benefit of jewelry for significant other. But imho, calling it an good "investment" in most cases is a far stretch, especially if you are buying them from retail stores brand new. You might be able to arbitrage them if you buy something from someone, and that someone doesn't know what it's really worth, and you do. No different than going to garage sale and finding an painting that's worth a lot that the seller didn't know about. But again, I'm not a jewelry expert and don't like that sort of wild speculation/gambling...

That's why when it comes to gold, I just prefer the real thing...Bullion. because the markup from the gold content is as low as it's going to get. Gold coins at times can be purchased at $10-15/ounce above spot prices and sold $10-15/ounce below spot prices. Actually for awhile, when one bought gold over a verified trusted gold dealer over eBay, you could actually get gold below spot because for awhile eBay included coin purchases as part of their eBay bucks rebate program...They did that until a lot of people like took advantage of that, and then they started to exclude bullion purchases...It was great because you bought gold $10-15 above spot, your ebay buck reward would rebate you back $100 per coin purchase up to 4 coins per quarter, and your Visa card would rebate you back 1% for purchases....

Some people collect rare coins, and those coins have value beyond the metal content. That works too. But, I don't do that. I just prefer to keep it simple...

Submitted by deadzone on March 8, 2022 - 1:47pm.

I see where you are coming from. Jewelry as a collectible would be more desirable and is quite rarer in more than 14K. And unless you own a retail jewelry store you can't benefit from the large markups that you get from selling 10K and 14K pieces

But from a pure gold melted down value point of view, there is no difference in price (in theory). In other words, an 18K bar is worth the same proportional value 18/24 of the spot gold price as 14K (14/24). But since 18K bars are probably not very common, there may be a slight additional markup but it wouldn't be much.

Submitted by Coronita on March 8, 2022 - 2:37pm.

deadzone wrote:
I see where you are coming from. Jewelry as a collectible would be more desirable and is quite rarer in more than 14K. And unless you own a retail jewelry store you can't benefit from the large markups that you get from selling 10K and 14K pieces

But from a pure gold melted down value point of view, there is no difference in price (in theory). In other words, an 18K bar is worth the same proportional value 18/24 of the spot gold price as 14K (14/24). But since 18K bars are probably not very common, there may be a slight additional markup but it wouldn't be much.

In theory, yes... but in practice, from you, the retail buyer of jewelry.... how do know how much gold is really in the jewelry and that it's actually 14k or 10k, and not less? Many retail jewelry pieces don't actually state the total weight of the gold part, especially cosmetic/affordanble/non-investment grade jewelry. How do you properly evaluate of the total retail price you pay for a piece of jewelry, the percentage of it is for the gold content, and the rest just a markup for the aesthetics?

Because in many cases, the markup for the non-gold content is significantly more than the price of the gold content, and if the worth of the consumer grade jewelry selling back is only the gold's meltdown value, you're going to lose the value from the piece's aesthetic. For example, if you buy a necklace with that has gold and other decorations on it, and they don't give you a total weight of the gold content, you might end up spending say 50% for the gold content and 50% for everything else. Melt value might only be for the gold content, which is worth only 50% of the total price of the piece...so just to come out even (non-inflation adjusted), gold prices would have to double from the time you purchased the original piece. That's not a good "investment"...

There's a difference if there's some collectors value for that jewelry. But most 10k or 14k jewelry is not collectible, since it's meant for your average consumer as an affordable option.

Also, if you buy jewelry in bulk for "investment", how do you test for the actual gold content? How do you really know it's 14k versus say 12k or 10k? with 10k or 14k, weight tests aren't that accurate by itself..Now, for a consumer jewelry that your spouse/significant other likes, it doesn't really matter how true is the gold content is and its unlikely you'll spend the time an money to get it checked out, since it probably isn't a big deal. You spouse/significant other likes the piece and that's all there is too it. But from a "investment" perspective, that's a crappy proposition. Because you won't really know what you are getting. That uncertainty is "investment risk"...
So from that perspective, I wouldn't buy a consumer grade jewelry counting on it to appreciate or view it as an "investment" because all those factors. All that matters really is my significant other likes the piece, fake or untrue to the gold content or not.

There are reasons why if one is truly serious about gold bullion investing, one sticks with well know coins or gold bars. Because while it's not impossible to make them fake,
1) value is pretty clear: 1 ounce of gold...
2) purity of well know coins are well known. Canadian maple leafs are 99.9% pure, whereas american eagles are 91.7% ..But total gold content is still the same...

3) there are a lot of test kits that while isn't a guarantee, does reduce your changes of getting a fake coin, The fisch test kit is a pretty good test kit. And they are designed to work on the well known gold coins that our popular...

https://www.thefisch.com/

4) the amount of effort to make a fake gold coin that is almost indetectable using tungsten is not worth it versus doing this to a 1 kilo bar. So while it's possible to make fake 1 ounce coins with tungsten, the effort for just 1 coin isn't worth it. 1 kilo bars are different, because fakers drill out the center of the 1 kilo bar and fill it up with tungsten, and being the weight and characteristics are close, with a large 1 kilo bar, it's far easier to fake...

https://globalbullionsuppliers.com/blogs....

https://www.businessinsider.com/tungsten...

5) If you're buying 1 ounce bars from reputable places, they usually have some traceable serial number...For instance Valcambi gold bars...

https://www.jmbullion.com/1-oz-valcambi-...

Again, none of this matters as much if you're spending like $1000-$10k on gold/jewelry/etc, because if things are fake or not up to spec or not properly evaluated, you're at most out $1000-10k and probably doesn ot materially affect your overall financial situation. But if one is really taking up sizeable "investments" in gold where it makes a material impact on one's financials (just like every other class of investment), it behooves one to make purchases without the tools to verify authenticity, because not checking for authenticity is a huge risk for your gold "investment"

Submitted by Coronita on March 8, 2022 - 2:47pm.

Forgot another important reason why consumer gold jewelry is, most of the time, a crappy investment....

6. Sales tax....Almost all consumer jewelry in CA is subject sales tax. That's 7.75% in SD, and up to 8.25% in other counties. So right off the bat, if you you buy consumer jewelry as an "investment" you lose around 8% in your value if you were to sell it right back.

Gold bullion is NOT subject to sales tax if it's $1500 or above....That's why you should always buy at least 1 ounce of gold bullion per transaction. If you buy 1/3 ounce bars, for instance, that's subject to state sales tax.

You probably already know this DZ if you are serious about precious metal investments, but in case you werent aware...

https://www.jmbullion.com/tax/california/

Quote:

California Gold & Silver Bullion / Collectible State Sales Taxes
Rules and Regulations for the State of California
The State of California requires the collection of use taxes on certain products sold by JM Bullion and delivered to a California address. These taxes must be collected on (1) nonmonetized bullion made from copper, platinum, or palladium; (2) monetized bullion, nonmonetized gold or silver bullion, or numismatic coins if the total amount of a single sales transaction is less than $1,500; (3) accessory items; and (4) processed items. All other products sold by JM Bullion are exempt from these taxes.

The following definitions apply to products on which taxes must be collected in California:

Nonmonetized Bullion. Bullion which has been smelted or refined and has a value dependent primarily upon its precious metal content and not upon its form.
Monetized Bullion. Coins or other forms of money manufactured of gold, silver, or other metal and heretofore, now, or hereafter used as a medium of exchange under the laws of California, the United States, or any foreign nation. The medium of exchange must have had a legal status equivalent to legal tender.
Numismatic Coins. Coins which have an external value above and beyond the base value of the underlying precious metal, due to the item’s rarity, condition, age, or other external factor.
Single Sales Transaction. Determined per invoice, and not on a line-item basis.
Accessory Items. Items such as holders, tubes, coin flips, and apparel.
Processed Items. Precious metals that have been processed by third parties into items that are valued on more than their precious metal content, such as statues or colorized coins.
Use taxes in California are calculated at checkout on the JM Bullion website based on (1) the taxability of products sold by JM Bullion in California set forth above, and (2) the specific tax rates established by the taxing jurisdiction of the delivery address in California.

JM Bullion began collecting use taxes in California on April 1, 2019. Our use tax license number in California is 257602304.

If you are a California-based reseller and wish to file a Reseller Certificate with JM Bullion, please download the California Reseller Certificate form here. Once you have filled out this form, either email it to support@jmbullion.com; or mail it to JM Bullion, Inc., 11700 Preston Road, Suite 660153, Dallas, TX 75230. Once we receive your completed Reseller Certificate, we will enter it into our system, and you will not be charged use taxes on future orders as long as your Reseller Certificate remains valid and in force.

PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE IS NOT A COMPREHENSIVE DESCRIPTION OF SALES TAX LAWS AND REQUIREMENTS IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA. IT IS ONLY INTENDED TO PROVIDE THE READER WITH A BRIEF OVERVIEW OF THOSE SALES TAX LAWS AND REQUIREMENTS CURRENTLY IN EFFECT IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA THAT RELATE TO THE READER’S TRANSACTIONS WITH JM BULLION. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO RESEARCH THE SALES TAX LAWS AND REQUIREMENTS IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, WE SUGGEST YOU VISIT THE CALIFORNIA TAX SERVICE CENTER LOCATED AT HTTPS://WWW.TAXES.CA.GOV/.

Submitted by Coronita on March 8, 2022 - 2:53pm.

Rare vintage wine makes better investments than most consumer grade jewelry BTW. At least you know what you are getting. Well sort of... People in asian pay $100-$150 for empty vintage wine bottles, because they take them and make fake wine and sell it over there with the same label. I'm not kidding.

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