Back to the Office for Tech Workers

User Forum Topic
Submitted by deadzone on February 23, 2022 - 2:35pm

Covid is over now for all intents and purposes. Amazon announced return to the office (3 days a week) and no longer requiring vaccine.

You knew this was coming, other large tech companies will follow suite. This change in addition to tech stocks getting absolutely hammered in the stock market this year will pretty much put an end to the "Bay area tech worker moving to ___ for remote work".

Just another ominous sign for the housing market along with rapidly rising interest rates. Anybody flipping houses now is going to get rammed hard. I think Zillow was wise to get out of that business when they did.

Submitted by Coronita on March 14, 2022 - 11:47am.
Submitted by Coronita on March 14, 2022 - 2:18pm.

.

Submitted by barnaby33 on March 14, 2022 - 2:09pm.

deadzone wrote:

And let's face it, if hiring 100% remote is fully normalized, why would I hire a San Diego engineer at 200K when I can get the same productivity out of an Indian engineer for 50K or less?

LoL, no, just no.

Seconded. Having been in IT for 25 years now, that's a myth. If the Indian/Chinese/Russian was that good, he'd most likely be in the US already.
Josh

Submitted by deadzone on March 14, 2022 - 3:18pm.

barnaby33 wrote:
deadzone wrote:

And let's face it, if hiring 100% remote is fully normalized, why would I hire a San Diego engineer at 200K when I can get the same productivity out of an Indian engineer for 50K or less?

LoL, no, just no.

Seconded. Having been in IT for 25 years now, that's a myth. If the Indian/Chinese/Russian was that good, he'd most likely be in the US already.
Josh

Perhaps. But it is irrelevant, the majority of white collar workers will go back to the office, at least part time, once Covid is over.
And the entitled, prima donna tech workers who are threatening to quit if forced back to the office can do so. But they better be careful because the job market is not going to be so favorable if this tech bubble crash continues on its current trajectory.

Submitted by Coronita on March 14, 2022 - 3:58pm.

deadzone wrote:
barnaby33 wrote:
deadzone wrote:

And let's face it, if hiring 100% remote is fully normalized, why would I hire a San Diego engineer at 200K when I can get the same productivity out of an Indian engineer for 50K or less?

LoL, no, just no.

Seconded. Having been in IT for 25 years now, that's a myth. If the Indian/Chinese/Russian was that good, he'd most likely be in the US already.
Josh

Perhaps. But it is irrelevant, the majority of white collar workers will go back to the office, at least part time, once Covid is over.
And the entitled, prima donna tech workers who are threatening to quit if forced back to the office can do so. But they better be careful because the job market is not going to be so favorable if this tech bubble crash continues on its current trajectory.

Man,

deadzone tell us how you really feel about tech workers, lol. You definitely have an ax to grind with tech workers. Could it possibly be you once were during the dot.com days and somehow never made it back into tech?

Sour grapes, much?

lol

Tech jobs aren't necessary opportunites of a lifetime. You might think it that way by seeing others successful at it, but it's not for everyone and not being in tech doesn't mean one can't be successful.

Personally, I'm happy to see finally tech workers making serious $$$$. For years, I thought it was pretty funny that investment bankers make 10x+ more than tech workers was a little strange, lol.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 14, 2022 - 5:02pm.

meanwhile out on the streets heard about a few more properties with over 20 offers each in the last week

Submitted by an on March 14, 2022 - 5:23pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
meanwhile out on the streets heard about a few more properties with over 20 offers each in the last week
Bubble! have you not learn anything from 2008?

Submitted by deadzone on March 14, 2022 - 5:44pm.

Coronita wrote:

Man,

deadzone tell us how you really feel about tech workers, lol. You definitely have an ax to grind with tech workers. Could it possibly be you once were during the dot.com days and somehow never made it back into tech?

Sour grapes, much?

lol

Tech jobs aren't necessary opportunites of a lifetime. You might think it that way by seeing others successful at it, but it's not for everyone and not being in tech doesn't mean one can't be successful.

Personally, I'm happy to see finally tech workers making serious $$$$. For years, I thought it was pretty funny that investment bankers make 10x+ more than tech workers was a little strange, lol.

No axe to grind at tech workers in general, only towards the entitled, prima donna subset of tech workers (or any industry for that matter). The ones who feel so highly of themselves they really believe they are irreplaceable. Most of these, I suspect, entered the workforce post 2009/2010 recession and only know good times as their careers benefitted from the gale force tailwinds of fed money printing. I've seen this before, those same attitudes were common place in the late 90s in the tech industry.

Submitted by Coronita on March 14, 2022 - 5:53pm.

deadzone wrote:

No axe to grind at tech workers in general, only towards the entitled, prima donna subset of tech workers (or any industry for that matter). The ones who feel so highly of themselves they really believe they are irreplaceable. Most of these, I suspect, entered the workforce post 2009/2010 recession and only know good times as their careers benefitted from the gale force tailwinds of fed money printing. I've seen this before, those same attitudes were common place in the late 90s in the tech industry.

Um, ok if you say so.

Yeah, that's what people use to say about Qualcomm.

....Back in 94 before the 2:1 stock split.
Then they certainly were finished
... Before the 2:1 stock split in 1999...
Then obviously they were finished with the patent issues...
....Before the 4:1 stock split in Dec 1999....
They were certainly done with all the IP lawsuits....
....Before the 2:1 stock split in 2004
....And clearly they were finished when they were 38/share a few years ago...
That was before Broadcom hostile takeover failed, Intel pulled out of 5G, Apple gave up on 5G and settled....

Tech sure is finished....lol

I'm sure there will be another real estate opportunity of a lifetime . one day.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 14, 2022 - 5:57pm.

Agreed! It will just be some else’s lifetime

Submitted by Coronita on March 14, 2022 - 6:01pm.

Got to go..

OOAL!!!!

Ciao

Submitted by an on March 14, 2022 - 6:38pm.

sdrealtor wrote:
Agreed! It will just be some else’s lifetime

You will never know... No one predicted what happened over the last couple of years. Would be insane if we do see a repeat of the 70s to mid 80s. Would be awesome to see 5-10x gains LoL. Only hindsight will we know if it'll be an opportunity of a lifetime or not. Let's revisit this thread in 2035.

Submitted by deadzone on March 14, 2022 - 6:49pm.

Coronita wrote:
deadzone wrote:

No axe to grind at tech workers in general, only towards the entitled, prima donna subset of tech workers (or any industry for that matter). The ones who feel so highly of themselves they really believe they are irreplaceable. Most of these, I suspect, entered the workforce post 2009/2010 recession and only know good times as their careers benefitted from the gale force tailwinds of fed money printing. I've seen this before, those same attitudes were common place in the late 90s in the tech industry.

Um, ok if you say so.

Yeah, that's what people use to say about Qualcomm.

....Back in 94 before the 2:1 stock split.
Then they certainly were finished
... Before the 2:1 stock split in 1999...
Then obviously they were finished with the patent issues...
....Before the 4:1 stock split in Dec 1999....
They were certainly done with all the IP lawsuits....
....Before the 2:1 stock split in 2004
....And clearly they were finished when they were 38/share a few years ago...
That was before Broadcom hostile takeover failed, Intel pulled out of 5G, Apple gave up on 5G and settled....

Tech sure is finished....lol

I'm sure there will be another real estate opportunity of a lifetime . one day.

What does Qualcomm have to do with it? Nobody is predicting the "demise" of tech. But the industry is clearly too big for its britches right now and that is because it's been boosted to bubble heights by artificial money pumping by Fed, just like late 90s VC money was flowing like beer at a Frat party. When the money machine stops, there will be a lot of tech workers on the street. We'll see how that entitled attitude of "I'll quit if I can't work from home in my PJs" works out then.

Submitted by JPJones on March 14, 2022 - 11:25pm.

deadzone wrote:
Coronita wrote:

Man,

deadzone tell us how you really feel about tech workers, lol. You definitely have an ax to grind with tech workers. Could it possibly be you once were during the dot.com days and somehow never made it back into tech?

Sour grapes, much?

lol

Tech jobs aren't necessary opportunites of a lifetime. You might think it that way by seeing others successful at it, but it's not for everyone and not being in tech doesn't mean one can't be successful.

Personally, I'm happy to see finally tech workers making serious $$$$. For years, I thought it was pretty funny that investment bankers make 10x+ more than tech workers was a little strange, lol.

No axe to grind at tech workers in general, only towards the entitled, prima donna subset of tech workers (or any industry for that matter). The ones who feel so highly of themselves they really believe they are irreplaceable. Most of these, I suspect, entered the workforce post 2009/2010 recession and only know good times as their careers benefitted from the gale force tailwinds of fed money printing. I've seen this before, those same attitudes were common place in the late 90s in the tech industry.

Jesus, dude. Who hurt you? You say you have no axe to grind, then proceed to grind an axe.

Anyhow, good tech workers are literally irreplaceable right now. The type of shortage we're seeing isn't going to correct itself in a year or two, and for that matter, we aren't even talking tech workers at this point. WFH is a normal part of benefits packages for every white collar job across every industry now. The cat is out of the bag, and smarter business people than us have figured out how much full-time remote work has increased productivity. (SPOILERS: it's a lot)

Submitted by XBoxBoy on March 15, 2022 - 8:35am.

It's funny. We keep talking about tech workers, but the other day I called a company's customer service and while I'm on the line with the service rep. I could hear her also telling her kid that she needed to be quiet while mom's on the phone. I guess she could have brought her kid into work, but I suspect she was working from home. And if you think about it, she's saving money because she doesn't need to pay child care, and the company is able to get a low wage worker that they otherwise might not have been able to. I don't think this work from home thing is just about high paid tech workers.

Submitted by Coronita on March 15, 2022 - 8:51am.

XBoxBoy wrote:
It's funny. We keep talking about tech workers, but the other day I called a company's customer service and while I'm on the line with the service rep. I could hear her also telling her kid that she needed to be quiet while mom's on the phone. I guess she could have brought her kid into work, but I suspect she was working from home. And if you think about it, she's saving money because she doesn't need to pay child care, and the company is able to get a low wage worker that they otherwise might not have been able to. I don't think this work from home thing is just about high paid tech workers.

It's also school district employees, who called just a few days ago, and she said she's not in the office and she's working from home so it's best to reach her via email....

Submitted by Coronita on March 15, 2022 - 9:11am.

JPJones wrote:

Jesus, dude. Who hurt you? You say you have no axe to grind, then proceed to grind an axe.

Anyhow, good tech workers are literally irreplaceable right now. The type of shortage we're seeing isn't going to correct itself in a year or two, and for that matter, we aren't even talking tech workers at this point. WFH is a normal part of benefits packages for every white collar job across every industry now. The cat is out of the bag, and smarter business people than us have figured out how much full-time remote work has increased productivity. (SPOILERS: it's a lot)


Submitted by sdrealtor on March 15, 2022 - 9:19am.

Coronita wrote:
XBoxBoy wrote:
It's funny. We keep talking about tech workers, but the other day I called a company's customer service and while I'm on the line with the service rep. I could hear her also telling her kid that she needed to be quiet while mom's on the phone. I guess she could have brought her kid into work, but I suspect she was working from home. And if you think about it, she's saving money because she doesn't need to pay child care, and the company is able to get a low wage worker that they otherwise might not have been able to. I don't think this work from home thing is just about high paid tech workers.

It's also school district employees, who called just a few days ago, and she said she's not in the office and she's working from home so it's best to reach her via email....

And it’s health care workers also. One family member meets with a therapist over zoom. Another family member just took a work from home job counseling patients with hearing issues.

Much of the mortgage industry is wfh now also. It’s a tech wave but has created many other ripples

Submitted by Coronita on March 15, 2022 - 9:20am.

sdrealtor wrote:
Coronita wrote:
XBoxBoy wrote:
It's funny. We keep talking about tech workers, but the other day I called a company's customer service and while I'm on the line with the service rep. I could hear her also telling her kid that she needed to be quiet while mom's on the phone. I guess she could have brought her kid into work, but I suspect she was working from home. And if you think about it, she's saving money because she doesn't need to pay child care, and the company is able to get a low wage worker that they otherwise might not have been able to. I don't think this work from home thing is just about high paid tech workers.

It's also school district employees, who called just a few days ago, and she said she's not in the office and she's working from home so it's best to reach her via email....

And it’s health care workers also. One family member meets with a therapist over zoom. Another family member just took a work from home job counseling patients with hearing issues.

Much of the mortgage industry is wfh now also. It’s a tech wave but has created many other ripples

My kid's tutor service is now over zoom.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on March 15, 2022 - 9:34am.

sdrealtor wrote:
Coronita wrote:
XBoxBoy wrote:
It's funny. We keep talking about tech workers, but the other day I called a company's customer service and while I'm on the line with the service rep. I could hear her also telling her kid that she needed to be quiet while mom's on the phone. I guess she could have brought her kid into work, but I suspect she was working from home. And if you think about it, she's saving money because she doesn't need to pay child care, and the company is able to get a low wage worker that they otherwise might not have been able to. I don't think this work from home thing is just about high paid tech workers.

It's also school district employees, who called just a few days ago, and she said she's not in the office and she's working from home so it's best to reach her via email....

And it’s health care workers also. One family member meets with a therapist over zoom. Another family member just took a work from home job counseling patients with hearing issues.

Much of the mortgage industry is wfh now also. It’s a tech wave but has created many other ripples

Telemedicine will be commonplace, I don't think that trend will reverse. My wife's doing it. It's very very VERY efficient. Having bodies late and milling about an office slows things down. Obviously some issues will require physical presence, but a shocking number do not.

38x more telehealth encounters than prepandemic...but now stabilizing...

https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/heal....

Personally, I've met with my therapist over zoom and in person, and for me, in person is much better.

Submitted by Coronita on March 15, 2022 - 10:05am.

scaredyclassic wrote:

Telemedicine will be commonplace, I don't think that trend will reverse. My wife's doing it. It's very very VERY efficient. Having bodies late and milling about an office slows things down. Obviously some issues will require physical presence, but a shocking number do not.

Actually, this is just starting and scratching the surface.

I've had a few startups that reached out to me asking me if I was interested in running their mobile app group. There's a few interesting concepts, all with the idea of no longer requiring in person contact. I'm not sure I agree with all the ideas will work but...it's interesting to see some people thinking about this. Most of them are in the medical space..

1) Remote, self service hearing diagnostic and hear aid kit.

This startup is building a remote configurable hearing diagnostic and hear aid system. The concept is to allow some elderly in the rural/remote community with limited mobility and unable to reach hear specialistics to have access to top hearing specialists that live elsewhere (IE urban areas)... Their prototype involves shipping a medical hearing diagnostic kit to the person, and than providing a remote management console to a hearing specialist elsewhere to run the hearing tests one normally would need to see in person to do. They also are working on a hearing aid that can also be configured and tuned remotely. Part of the "kit" besides the medical device is a smartphone shipped with the package specifically customized and built just to run the the tests and configure the hearing aid. Interesting concept.

2) Second company is creating remote diagnostic tools to help parents diagnose if their developing kid has a higher chance of autism. Some of this is to capture day-to-day behavior of the kid and also some integratio to daycare etc. Supposedly the POC is being tested with part of the USAF. I didn't quiet understand how things work, and how much of it was real and to be done, but whatver.

3) Third company was a startup that does remote diabetic management. (No ,it wasn't Insulet, Dexcom, or Solara).

#1 and #3 had their Series A VC funding. #2 was funded by angel investors not yet at the Series A yet.

There's a lot of energy and money being spent on remote medical diagnostic. It's not just about being confined to home due to a pandemic they are trying to solve. A lot of these ideas came up because the pandemic caused people to think "what can we do with technology if you cannot physically be in close contact with someone else".....And then the application of that is being applied to people who do not have easy access to good medical care (IE rural people etc)...

I think these ideas are a lot more exciting than companies like Peloton that make a connected exercise bike. I wouldn't consider that really "tech"....lol.

That said, some of the medical diagnostic-ish stuff is also being applied to things like sports medicine/training. For example, glucose monitoring companies are starting to branch out to sports medicine/fitness training where some of the future products are to help athletics monitor their glucose levels, etc as part of a training regimen. I believe some of these devices probably don't need as rigorous clearance from the FDA/etc...

Submitted by JPJones on March 15, 2022 - 9:49am.

Accountants, engineers, helpdesk/service desk, bankers, basically every desk job I know of. They're all working from home if it's practical and they want to. If their employers didn't allow it, they found jobs with employers that did.

On the other side of that coin, there are people that don't want to work remotely, and that's great, too. There are plenty of jobs for both types. So, while I don't see remote work going away, I don't see in-office jobs going away, either. Having both available is healthy and ultimately keeps more people happily employed. The key is not to force your preference on others.

Submitted by spdrun on March 15, 2022 - 10:30am.

Personally, I've met with my therapist over zoom and in person, and for me, in person is much better.

And if telemedicine becomes normalized, insurance companies will ram it down people's craws in the name of "efficiency" and "cost saving", even though it's inferior for some people like yourself. Not all people even have a safe place to meet "virtually" with a therapist, away from nosy family, significant others, or roommates.

Submitted by spdrun on March 15, 2022 - 10:35am.

The key is not to force your preference on others.

The problem is that employers will start pushing from-home work on people who DON'T want it (like myself - I've learned to LOATHE working from home full-time) if the industry allows for it. Why? It saves them on office costs, and if people have all the tools needed to work from home, there are suddenly no boundaries between home and work. Welcome to 24/7 on-call Hell.

Submitted by spdrun on March 15, 2022 - 10:35am.

This startup is building a remote configurable hearing diagnostic and hear aid system. The concept is to allow some elderly in the rural/remote community with limited mobility and unable to reach hear specialistics to have access to top hearing specialists that live elsewhere (IE urban areas)...

Two things:

(1) What's to stop the companies from pushing laws that allow the specialists to be outsourced abroad or automated away? This sounds like a jobkiller long-term.

(2) People who need hearing aids should also have a checkup for other organic causes of hearing loss ... a hearing aid could be hiding the real problem that's damaging hearing long-term.

Submitted by Coronita on March 15, 2022 - 10:45am.

spdrun wrote:

This startup is building a remote configurable hearing diagnostic and hear aid system. The concept is to allow some elderly in the rural/remote community with limited mobility and unable to reach hear specialistics to have access to top hearing specialists that live elsewhere (IE urban areas)...

Two things:

(1) What's to stop the companies from pushing laws that allow the specialists to be outsourced abroad or automated away? This sounds like a jobkiller long-term.

(2) People who need hearing aids should also have a checkup for other organic causes of hearing loss ... a hearing aid could be hiding the real problem that's damaging hearing long-term.

If you want, you can talk to the company. They couldnt afford me so I didn't follow up with the details of how it works...

I try not to be a Debbie Downer when someone trying to do something new in tech. There's enough of that on piggington.

OOAL!!!

Submitted by JPJones on March 15, 2022 - 11:07am.

spdrun wrote:

The key is not to force your preference on others.

The problem is that employers will start pushing from-home work on people who DON'T want it (like myself - I've learned to LOATHE working from home full-time) if the industry allows for it. Why? It saves them on office costs, and if people have all the tools needed to work from home, there are suddenly no boundaries between home and work. Welcome to 24/7 on-call Hell.

Yeah, that's tricky. Since my wife switched to remote 2 years ago, we've had to get a lot more strict about setting boundaries with work. She used to check Slack occasionally while idling on the couch outside of working hours. Little things like that were cut out pretty early on, else she ended up doing a lot of little work sessions during family time. If you aren't good at setting those boundaries, remote work might not be right for you.

Submitted by JPJones on March 15, 2022 - 11:08am.

*stupid double post

Submitted by Coronita on March 15, 2022 - 11:48am.

JPJones wrote:
spdrun wrote:

The key is not to force your preference on others.

The problem is that employers will start pushing from-home work on people who DON'T want it (like myself - I've learned to LOATHE working from home full-time) if the industry allows for it. Why? It saves them on office costs, and if people have all the tools needed to work from home, there are suddenly no boundaries between home and work. Welcome to 24/7 on-call Hell.

Yeah, that's tricky. Since my wife switched to remote 2 years ago, we've had to get a lot more strict about setting boundaries with work. She used to check Slack occasionally while idling on the couch outside of working hours. Little things like that were cut out pretty early on, else she ended up doing a lot of little work sessions during family time. If you aren't good at setting those boundaries, remote work might not be right for you.

There's a tradeoff between flexibility and taking calls outside of your timezone. We've had a few years to refine things but it's pretty simple.

We have a planned short morning "standup" meeting at 9am PST in the morning and a meeting in the afternoon at 2pm PST. If you're not in the PST timezone, you either have to be available at those times OR you must have someone covering for you.

You are not to respond to slack or team messages past your 6pm in your timezone, unless you are happen to be the engineer on call for a production launch week. At which there's a rotation schedule across US timezone and asia, so at most you'll be on call for +2hrs from 6pm until the other team takes over.

Managers and above are exempt and expected to attend corporate meetings as early 7am PST when needed because there are times you'll need to get on a call with the east coast team... The flipside is there are days that things get quiet by the time it's 3pm PST (because everyone on the east coast it's already 6pm). So some days, I'm off by 3:30pm PST, just in time to volunteer for my kid's robotics team.

No one is allowed to ring personal mobile numbers. Everyone is expected to message in slack or teams, and if you're on call, you need to have slack/teams on your phone and logged in.

If you don't respond during hours, don't check in your code or submit a PR or show up for a code review, design meeting. You will get tarred and feathered over slack and teams by your teammates and get shit on by them.

Managers and above have learned here to use the "Scheduled messages" after hours, if they want to put something in a slack channel that is not meant to be actioned upon until the next business day. Before, I wasn't doing this, people were thinking I was expecting a response off-hours and finally people complained to me about it. I didn't expect people to respond off-hours.. I just didn't want forget and posted it in the slack channel meant for tomorrow.

My philosophy is don't be a dick to people on your team. And one day if you end up working for one of them, (hopefully) you won't work for a dick.

Submitted by sdrealtor on March 15, 2022 - 11:50am.

spdrun wrote:

This startup is building a remote configurable hearing diagnostic and hear aid system. The concept is to allow some elderly in the rural/remote community with limited mobility and unable to reach hear specialistics to have access to top hearing specialists that live elsewhere (IE urban areas)...

Two things:

(1) What's to stop the companies from pushing laws that allow the specialists to be outsourced abroad or automated away? This sounds like a jobkiller long-term.

(2) People who need hearing aids should also have a checkup for other organic causes of hearing loss ... a hearing aid could be hiding the real problem that's damaging hearing long-term.

I know quite a bit about that. The nature of the test and patient history dictates whether there could be another issue behind it. Most commonly it is sudden loss of hearing not chronic decline. Easily referred and differentiated

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