Are Men Success Objects?

User Forum Topic
Submitted by NotCranky on October 22, 2014 - 4:50pm

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&...

The first link discussion is centered around some ideas expressed by the famous and highly regarded former board member of The NYC chapter of NOW, Warren Farrell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Farrell

It's nice when one of the books you have read and really got something out of, the author of said book, and his subsequent books, have stood up to the test of time.

Sorry, he is a man, I really apologize for that, but his work is highly acclaimed by some women too!

I know times are changing but I look around and see some familiar patterns as apparently do a lot other piggs. Hot women never go out of style, for instance.

Submitted by UCGal on October 24, 2014 - 8:09am.

CDMA ENG wrote:
UCGal wrote:
My husband is convinced he's the sex object in our relationship. I don't dissuade him of this notion. LOL.

Typical Pisan...

:P

CE


Mio marito è molto maschilismo. Lui è molto bello... nella sua testa.

(Can you tell I'm acing my Italian 101 class? - I can use present tense verbs, adjectives, prepositions - and possessive pronouns.)

Submitted by NotCranky on October 24, 2014 - 10:56am.

CaRenter, You will just say any darn thing with complete disrespect of balance and objectivity and most of all men's side of things. To me that's anti-child and anti-family.

You can see here for instance that Warren Farrell a real Pariah.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimkanani/...

Submitted by CA renter on October 24, 2014 - 6:40pm.

Blogstar wrote:
CaRenter, You will just say any darn thing with complete disrespect of balance and objectivity and most of all men's side of things. To me that's anti-child and anti-family.

You can see here for instance that Warren Farrell a real Pariah.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rahimkanani/2011/09/05/the-need-to-create-a-white-house-council-on-boys-to-men/

You've shown nothing but disrespect for the work that women have traditionally done throughout history. Your post doesn't dispute anything that I've brought up. The need for a "White House Council on Boys and Men" is no different from the need for a "White House Council on White People." Both white people and men, in general, have been the oppressors of others for most of human history (men have almost always had power over women, across cultures, geography, and time).

I'm sure you'd like to pretend that men and women (or white people and people of color) have always had equal power and opportunity for all of human history history, but that reality only exists in your own mind.

Answer this: Why is it that the work that has traditionally been done for the benefit white people (or men) by people of color (or women) always been paid less, if it was to be paid at all, than the "work" done by white people (and men)? Why is it that people of color and women have traditionally been owned by (white) men? Why is it that people of color and women have had to fight just to have the right to own property of any kind...or vote...or control their own bodies? Please answer that honestly.

Submitted by flyer on October 24, 2014 - 7:14pm.

If either men or women have been "success objects" in prior generations, from what I'm reading, that might not hold for future generations by virtue of pure economics.

Since such a huge percentage of young people are so far "behind the curve" financially, with regard to establishing themselves in careers, buying their own homes, etc., etc.--perhaps we'll find that, for the majority of the population going forward, the concept of choosing someone because of what they can provide you with in life may simply disappear because that option no longer exists.

Submitted by CA renter on October 24, 2014 - 8:03pm.

flyer wrote:
If either men or women have been "success objects" in prior generations, from what I'm reading, that might not hold for future generations by virtue of pure economics.

Since such a huge percentage of young people are so far "behind the curve" financially, with regard to establishing themselves in careers, buying their own homes, etc., etc.--perhaps we'll find that, for the majority of the population going forward, the concept of choosing someone because of what they can provide you with in life may simply disappear because that option no longer exists.

IMHO, it will become even more important, as more and more people realize that connections (including connections to wealthy spouses) matter more than hard work.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 24, 2014 - 8:04pm.

CAr, like I said before women have the power they can use if they wish.

But you will never enlighten men to come around to your point of view.

Just think of it as a trade in the free market.
Men have manhood and virility. Women have reproduction and eggs. The reality now in the power dynamics now is that women want men more (they want to marry men and they want their company more). Flip it around and women will have the power.

Maybe it's different in your household, but generally speaking, a women can't simply want to marry a man and have kids with him and then want him to get enlightened. Make him beg for it and he'll give the woman what she wants. She could wait a long time... But, in the mean time, she could form a union and get all the women together and, in the long run, it could work.

Society has changed. The laws have changed. Men can't force women anymore.

Submitted by CA renter on October 24, 2014 - 8:13pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
CAr, like I said before women have the power they can use if they wish.

But you will never enlighten men to come around to your point of view.

Just think of it as a trade in the free market.
Men have manhood and virility. Women have reproduction and eggs. The reality now in the power dynamics now is that women want men more (they want to marry men and they want their company more). Flip it around and women will have the power.

Maybe it's different in your household, but generally speaking, a women can't simply want to marry a man and have kids with him and then want him to get enlightened. Make him beg for it and he'll give the woman what she wants. She could wait a long time... But, in the mean time, she could form a union and get all the women together and, in the long run, it could work.

Society has changed. The laws have changed. Men can't force women anymore.

I fully concur with what you are saying regarding the potential power that women have, and are often totally unaware of, and have mentioned before that we might start to move more in that direction as a society. Europe has been traveling down that path ahead of us.

It's the same reason that I've brought up naming rights in other threads; why in the world do we continue with the patriarchal traditions of naming children after men if those men aren't any more powerful or important than women? If marriage confers no real benefit to women (or men), then why even go there? We can all just buy sperm or contract with surrogates to make our own children; totally unencumbered by the wants, needs, or desires of another person who isn't obligated, and/or doesn't desire, to do anything for us?

Some feminists, possibly even BG, would argue that this IS the direction we should take, as it would pretty much eliminate the need for men at all. But is that what we really want for society? Is that really going to put us -- all of us -- in a better position than we're in now? I just don't think so.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 24, 2014 - 8:11pm.

flyer wrote:
If either men or women have been "success objects" in prior generations, from what I'm reading, that might not hold for future generations by virtue of pure economics.

Since such a huge percentage of young people are so far "behind the curve" financially, with regard to establishing themselves in careers, buying their own homes, etc., etc.--perhaps we'll find that, for the majority of the population going forward, the concept of choosing someone because of what they can provide you with in life may simply disappear because that option no longer exists.

I think you're on to something. The millennials are becoming more like Scandinavia where people don't really think of marriage and family in the traditional sense. They delay marriage and household formation. They like to live in urban enclaves, rent and just chill. The relationships are more egalitarian.

Of course, middle America and immigrants will continue to have kids in the more traditional sense.

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 24, 2014 - 8:31pm.

CAr, you can't have traditional housewife-husband relationships and more power for women.

If you demand power, men can just throw it back at you and demand to be house-husbands. That's what the younger generations are thinking.

Workers are also wondering why parents get more slack at work than non-parents. Just not fair.

Society is changing.. now there's have porn galore on the Net in 3D. Soon we'll have virtual sex I'm sure.

Women desire the traditional family more. Men care a lot less about it and/or can delay it longer. I don't think that women have a lot of bargaining power, unless they band together and form a union to restrict to supply of willing women.

It's just a question of supply and demand.

BTW, the Spanish way of hyphenating last names is very good and fair to both sexes.

Submitted by flyer on October 24, 2014 - 8:37pm.

Good observations, FIH, and CAR, I agree connections rule.

This, as my wife reminds me that Romance novels are now the #1 genre in the world, with billions in sales.

Interesting dichotomies to be sure.

Submitted by CA renter on October 24, 2014 - 8:38pm.

FlyerInHi wrote:
CAr, you can't have traditional housewife-husband relationships and more power for women.

If you demand power, men can just throw it back at you and demand to be house-husbands. That's what the younger generations are thinking.

Workers are also wondering why parents get more slack at work than non-parents. Just not fair.

Society is changing.. now there's have porn galore on the Net in 3D. Soon we'll have virtual sex I'm sure.

Women desire the traditional family more. Men care a lot less about it and/or can delay it longer. I don't think that women have a lot of bargaining power, unless they band together and form a union to restrict to supply of willing woman.

It's just a question of supply and demand.

I've never advocated for only allowing women to be SAHPs. We've know a few couples where the dad was the primary caretaker/SAHP and we even know some homeschooling families where the dads are the SAH/teachers. I think it's awesome.

There are many, many women out there would want no part of being a SAHP, and there are some incredibly nurturing dads who would love nothing more than to stay home with the kids. There are families where the woman earns more than the man, so it totally makes sense, all else being equal, for her to continue working while he stays home.

But there is the reality of biology, too. Men don't get pregnant, don't have to go on bedrest if there are complications, don't nurse (while UCGal was able to successfully pull off breastfeeding while working, most of the working women I know stopped BFing because it was just too much work/inconvenience), etc. Men aren't as hormonally/physically/emotionally attached to their offspring as women are, in general. It's just different.

As for parents being treated differently at work, I also agree. While working in the corporate world, I really resented having to do other people's work because they had to leave at 4:45 p.m. to pick up their kids, or when they would often leave early for dr's appointments, plays, etc. And some of these people were men, including those other managers who were making *more* than I was "because they had families to support." And then there's the issue of medical insurance, etc. No, it's not fair, but I'm not sure there's much we can do about it.

Submitted by CA renter on October 24, 2014 - 8:45pm.

flyer wrote:
Good observations, FIH, and CAR, I agree connections rule.

This, as my wife reminds me that Romance novels are now the #1 genre in the world, with billions in sales.

Interesting dichotomies to be sure.

Interesting about romance novels. Other than Gone With the Wind, I've never read them. Does your wife happen to know if this trend been changing over time?

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 24, 2014 - 8:52pm.

Who you think are buying the romance novels.

I share an Amazon Prime account with a good friend. His teenage girl buys all the romance novels on kindle. The boy doesn't read novels.

Like I said, supply and demand. Women are romantics and want to traditional family. Men are less interested. And there's no societal pressure for men to be the providers anymore.

CAr, I'm afraid you want your cake and eat it too. Sounds like you have that already in your family, but I'm afraid that women in general can't have what you have.

Submitted by CDMA ENG on October 24, 2014 - 10:51pm.

UCGal wrote:
CDMA ENG wrote:
UCGal wrote:
My husband is convinced he's the sex object in our relationship. I don't dissuade him of this notion. LOL.

Typical Pisan...

:P

CE


Mio marito è molto maschilismo. Lui è molto bello... nella sua testa.

(Can you tell I'm acing my Italian 101 class? - I can use present tense verbs, adjectives, prepositions - and possessive pronouns.)

Oh man... You are challenging my limited Italian...

Right now my phrase of choice is...

"CHE PUTZ BAMBINO! Oh Ma'ron!"

:P

CE

Submitted by CDMA ENG on October 24, 2014 - 11:05pm.

CDMA ENG wrote:
UCGal wrote:
CDMA ENG wrote:
UCGal wrote:
My husband is convinced he's the sex object in our relationship. I don't dissuade him of this notion. LOL.

Typical Pisan...

:P

CE


Mio marito è molto maschilismo. Lui è molto bello... nella sua testa.

(Can you tell I'm acing my Italian 101 class? - I can use present tense verbs, adjectives, prepositions - and possessive pronouns.)

Oh man... You are challenging my limited Italian...

Right now my phrase of choice is...

"CHE PUTZ BAMBINO! Oh Ma'ron!"

:P

CE

I just realized I wasnt even spelling it correctly and using the slang version anyway...

Should be Che Puzza!

CE

Submitted by NotCranky on October 24, 2014 - 11:28pm.

I positively objectify bilingual people.

Submitted by flyer on October 25, 2014 - 1:25am.

CA renter wrote:
flyer wrote:
Good observations, FIH, and CAR, I agree connections rule.

This, as my wife reminds me that Romance novels are now the #1 genre in the world, with billions in sales.

Interesting dichotomies to be sure.

Interesting about romance novels. Other than Gone With the Wind, I've never read them. Does your wife happen to know if this trend been changing over time?

Here are the stats she gave me CAR:

Romance novels have grown in popularity over the years, and have always represented a huge percentage (over 50%) of all fiction sales. Currently, 84% of Romance readers are women, 30-54, generally with advanced degrees, and an average income of $60K. 16% of readers are men.

46% of Romance consumers are binge readers, and read at least one book per week, in comparison to the typical American who reads five books a year.

Around 1.5 billion Romance novels are sold in the US each year, and many more worldwide, with CA representing 50% of purchases.

After the kids were grown, my wife started writing Romances under a pseudonym a few years ago as a hobby, along with her career in the film business. She's able to work from home most of the time, and really enjoys both.

Submitted by CA renter on October 25, 2014 - 1:22am.

FlyerInHi wrote:

Like I said, supply and demand. Women are romantics and want to traditional family. Men are less interested. And there's no societal pressure for men to be the providers anymore.

You'd be surprised by the number of men who do want a traditional family. But you're not likely to be running in those circles (they tend to be more like your brother than like you). I'm just assuming this based on your posts.

Submitted by CA renter on October 25, 2014 - 1:27am.

flyer wrote:
CA renter wrote:
flyer wrote:
Good observations, FIH, and CAR, I agree connections rule.

This, as my wife reminds me that Romance novels are now the #1 genre in the world, with billions in sales.

Interesting dichotomies to be sure.

Interesting about romance novels. Other than Gone With the Wind, I've never read them. Does your wife happen to know if this trend been changing over time?

Here are the stats she gave me CAR:

Romance novels have grown in popularity over the years, and have always represented a huge percentage (over 50%) of all fiction sales. Currently, 84% of Romance readers are women, 30-54, generally with advanced degrees, and an average income of $60K. 16% of readers are men.

46% of Romance consumers are binge readers, and read at least one book per week, in comparison to the typical American who reads five books a year.

Around 1.5 billion Romance novels are sold in the US each year, and many more worldwide, with CA representing 50% of purchases.

After the kids were grown, my wife started writing under a pseudonym a few years ago as a hobby, along with her career in the film business. She's able to work from home most of the time, and really enjoys both.

Thanks for sharing the info, flyer (and Mrs. flyer!). I'm surprised about the level of education of these readers, and the 1.5 billion number.

Sounds like your wife is in the right field(s). :)

Submitted by UCGal on October 25, 2014 - 12:16pm.

CDMA ENG wrote:
CDMA ENG wrote:
UCGal wrote:
CDMA ENG wrote:
UCGal wrote:
My husband is convinced he's the sex object in our relationship. I don't dissuade him of this notion. LOL.

Typical Pisan...

:P

CE


Mio marito è molto maschilismo. Lui è molto bello... nella sua testa.

(Can you tell I'm acing my Italian 101 class? - I can use present tense verbs, adjectives, prepositions - and possessive pronouns.)

Oh man... You are challenging my limited Italian...

Right now my phrase of choice is...

"CHE PUTZ BAMBINO! Oh Ma'ron!"

:P

CE

I just realized I wasnt even spelling it correctly and using the slang version anyway...

Should be Che Puzza!

CE

Cool - I just learned a new Italian verb - puzzare. I can see it being a useful verb. :)

And I'm sure the mini CE bambino is not so odorific as you imply.

Il tuo bambino e' fortunato avere dei genitori come voi.

Submitted by flyer on October 25, 2014 - 3:38pm.

"Thanks for sharing the info, flyer (and Mrs. flyer!). I'm surprised about the level of education of these readers, and the 1.5 billion number.
Sounds like your wife is in the right field(s). :)"

Yes, CAr, the entertainment business is very interesting at this point in history. You have the polar opposites of romance books and superhero movies making billions of dollars in the domestic and international marketplace, and we're both enjoying our various involvements in these ventures.

Submitted by NotCranky on October 25, 2014 - 6:03pm.

The Lego movie was really good!

What's going on with the super hero movies?

Guardians of the Galaxy?

Flyer have you seen it?

Also Ironman 3, the only one I watched.

What is the draw to these things for people who would rate them as good as a lot of people do?

I thought better of the story lines of recent spider man movies, though they weren't really as visually astonishing.

Elysium made a pretty good depiction of Post apocalyptic Los Angeles....but really crappy movie for me.

Left to my own devices I am a foreign movie, art film, chick flick, documentary type of viewer, but I watch some of this stuff with the family.

Submitted by joec on October 25, 2014 - 5:55pm.

Maybe women are buying romance novels because it's an escapism like men with sports (wishing they were the star player, etc...).

Everyone would agree relationships are a lot of work and for working women, a lot don't want or have the time to deal with some other guy who they don't need any handouts from.

I saw some video in Japan where some Japanese professional ladies go and have fun and meet guys at these talking/social bars and just hang out, drink, talk, etc...

No sex is even involved. The young guy working there said he cleared 600k last year. Again, no sex involved at all.

Even though rich women marry rich men, I still see the majority of successful women marry even MORE successful men. Especially when the guy is pretty dog ugly like James Packer (net worth, 7.9 BILLION) with Miranda Kerr (20 million).

Then there's George Clooney and his new wife 20 years younger...

Rich guy with richer woman is John McCain (10 mil) and Cindy McCain (100 mil)...

Submitted by FlyerInHi on October 25, 2014 - 6:08pm.

joec wrote:

Rich guy with richer woman is John McCain (10 mil) and Cindy McCain (100 mil)...

It's only now that John McCain has a good networth. When he married Cindy, he was young and broke and had just abandoned his first wife because she was sick and too much to care for.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/articl...

Cindy's dad became his patron.

McCain did pretty alright for himself.

Submitted by scaredyclassic on October 25, 2014 - 7:24pm.

Www.bitterfilms.com

Deep stuff. Obsessive one man animation meaning of life stuff.

Made in Austin I think.

Just watched vol. 2

Submitted by flyer on October 25, 2014 - 8:19pm.

Blogstar wrote:
The Lego movie was really good!

What's going on with the super hero movies?

Guardians of the Galaxy?

Flyer have you seen it?

Also Ironman 3, the only one I watched.

What is the draw to these things for people who would rate them as good as a lot of people do?

I thought better of the story lines of recent spider man movies, though they weren't really as visually astonishing.

Elysium made a pretty good depiction of Post apocalyptic Los Angeles....but really crappy movie for me.

Left to my own devices I am a foreign movie, art film, chick flick, documentary type of viewer, but I watch some of this stuff with the family.

Have seen all of the above, with "Guardians" being my favorite.

Hollywood has realized that Superhero films do well domestically, and blow the roof off internationally. That's why you're seeing so many of them out there-it's all "business," and business is good. This is a trend that is projected to last through 2020, so we'll just have to wait and see if the bubble bursts sooner or later.

Here's an interesting article that sheds a little more light on that topic:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2...

Submitted by NotCranky on October 26, 2014 - 12:28pm.

flyer wrote:
Blogstar wrote:
The Lego movie was really good!

What's going on with the super hero movies?

Guardians of the Galaxy?

Flyer have you seen it?

Also Ironman 3, the only one I watched.

What is the draw to these things for people who would rate them as good as a lot of people do?

I thought better of the story lines of recent spider man movies, though they weren't really as visually astonishing.

Elysium made a pretty good depiction of Post apocalyptic Los Angeles....but really crappy movie for me.

Left to my own devices I am a foreign movie, art film, chick flick, documentary type of viewer, but I watch some of this stuff with the family.

Have seen all of the above, with "Guardians" being my favorite.

Hollywood has realized that Superhero films do well domestically, and blow the roof off internationally. That's why you're seeing so many of them out there-it's all "business," and business is good. This is a trend that is projected to last through 2020, so we'll just have to wait and see if the bubble bursts sooner or later.

Here's an interesting article that sheds a little more light on that topic:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2014/10/07/guardians-of-the-galaxy-could-cross-800-million-at-box-office/

With that I can see the broad appeal. I am not a sci-fi fan. My wife is but didn't like the dialog for Guardians. The main characters werie likeable /somewhat relatable for me but agree with my better half on the dialog.

DIdn't understand why if they could grow one dancing groot(corny) from a cutting why they couldn't grow thousands. These kinds of things trip me up about sic-fi. Mechanical impossibilities that are often part of the action drive me nuts.

Submitted by flyer on October 26, 2014 - 3:43pm.

Completely understand what you mean. "Suspension of disbelief" is definitely necessary on the part of the viewer in many sci-fi films. I actually prefer other genres as well, but, this is the very hot trend of the moment, and it's fascinating to see the extaordinary interest all around the world.

My personal "take" on the phenomenal success of these type of of films is that most people would much rather live in a fantasy world than the real world.

For the most part, since my wife is in the business, we look at films as entertainment, but primarily, as investments, and watch the market like hawks. We know the bubble will eventually burst, and there will be a new "hot property," that we'll move onto, but that's what makes it all so interesting.

Submitted by NotCranky on October 26, 2014 - 5:34pm.

flyer wrote:
Completely understand what you mean. "Suspension of disbelief" is definitely necessary on the part of the viewer in many sci-fi films. I actually prefer other genres as well, but, this is the very hot trend of the moment, and it's fascinating to see the extaordinary interest all around the world.

My personal "take" on the phenomenal success of these type of of films is that most people would much rather live in a fantasy world than the real world.

For the most part, since my wife is in the business, we look at films as entertainment, but primarily, as investments, and watch the market like hawks. We know the bubble will eventually burst, and there will be a new "hot property," that we'll move onto, but that's what makes it all so interesting.

Sounds good, seems to me that there were some other people on Piggington's
a few years back that were connected to movie making somehow. I seem to recall someone living in La Jolla.

I really hope that most people see this stuff as entertainment, especially my kids.

Submitted by CDMA ENG on October 28, 2014 - 10:58am.

Blogstar wrote:
I positively objectify bilingual people.

"Lady! I only speak two langueges! English and bad english1" Bruce Willis, The Five Elements.

Truthfully I have had a little exposure to all of the Latin languages but can speak none of them.

Spanish is spoken more around me due to having some Nicaraguan roots as well. Most of the family fled Nicaragua and ended up here so I hear more Spanish than the Italian that ppl identify me with. My dad likes to speak it more to me now than when I was a kid and all the Italian in my family live in Chicago so I only really hear it from him and Mobster movies...

I have also been around French speakers so I can pidgen with that as well...

But I cannot have a real conversation in any of them.

Whats worse is that italian I do know is a slang version of it...

CE

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